same-sex marriage
- Thread starter amalgam
- Start date
If it's really that black and white, why can't KCC give the topic starter a proper answer?
KCC follows federal laws which are very clear. If somebody doesn't like the definition of marriage used in the USA (on the federal level), then it is his own problem, nothing to do with KCC.
masematn, KCC is clear that his partner cannot get derivative status as marriage benefit, but in the interest of being honest and truthful, is he still considered "single?" In other words, the question is NOT one about his marriage, but one about his own marital status.
At first, I thought this was easy to answer too, but it's NOT. Just because his marriage is not recognized by immigration law doesn't automatically make him "single." This is precisely why many immigration right advocates caution bi-national same sex couples not to wed as it will only complicate any subsequent visa applications. If you go back and read amalgam's posts, even KCC declined the opportunity to address the issue.
FYI: Any opinion to like or dislike the current federal definition of marriage is far from a "problem." It's Freedom of Speech that you should respect, and not attack.
I am not going to debate about either honesty or truthfulness in such a dubious context, but if you read carefully the DV lottery instructions, you'll see that "single" is not among the options for a marital status. A person can only be unmarried, married, divorced, widowed, or legally separated. That's it.
Correct; it makes him "unmarried."
Forum rules against off-topic have nothing to do with the freedom of speech.
It's not a matter of liking or disliking. Even though the law is clear, forms conflict with a part of reality. It's that very same ambiguity that led KCC to refer topic starter to an expert. Again, if it's all so unambiguous, why can KCC follow the law but not explain it in regard to their own forms?
Which forms? Can you point to any conflicting entries in the forms relevant to DV lottery?
By the way, why do you give instructions to the E-DV form when this person is most likely trying to fill out a DS-230?? DS-230 has "single" for marital status, so your answer is worthless.
Amalgam, stick to finding a legal expert and don't listen to people telling you to blindly check some box just because they insist on being right.
The initial e-application is the first form in the list. Information on the other forms has to match it, and discrepancies often result in disqualification. Therefore it makes a lot of sense to follow this form's language in any subsequent forms.
Yes, it has "single," but in parenthesis it also has "never married." This is why I do not see any conflicts here. Read carefully the instructions, and everything should be all right.
OK. But imagine that one day US will recognize same-sex marriages on the federal level. And then probably I would like to bring my husband to US too. And authorities will ask me - why you didn't tell us before that you are married. That's why I want to get an answer from KCC or Moscow consulate that I do or do not have to define myself as married (not single).
That makes even less sense. So KCC wrote the instructions, they can't tell amalgam how to apply those very same instructions, and now we have to turn to the instructions to find a definite answer?
Any law has a date when it becomes a law. Any event prior to this date cannot be regulated by this law. As for the time of submitting the DV application, and as per the federal laws of that time, you were not married which is the same as single. So there is no reason to worry about.
KCC has more important job to do rather than explaining obvious things to those who have hard time understanding instructions in plain English. Usually this skill is taught at elementary school.
You may not want to debate his honesty and truthfulness, but your CUT AND DRY approach may get his DV visa DENIED! Do you want to take responsibility for that? Are you a LAWYER?
Great, unmarried instead of single, even better! Legally, he is unmarried, but when he is examined at the embassy and port of entry, the FACT that he entered into same-sex marriage before may FACTUALLY get him denied because, whether the US recognizes same-sex marriage or not, he IS married FACTUALLY. That's why it's not so simple as to just say he is "unmarried." If it was, wouldn't you think KCC has some internal memo somewhere to direct him to answer the question, instead of telling him he needs to consult a lawyer?
Finally, if you don't want to participate in this thread, there are hundreds of others that you can reply and stop being a forum content police.
Have you ever heard of a law having retrospective effect? And according to your logic, all same-sex couples must re-enter into a valid post-enactment marriages in order to take benefit under that new immigration law? Your logic is flawed.
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There are black letter laws and then there are the APPLICATIONS of laws because laws are not just something written on a piece of paper. They have direct effect on people. In this case, the applications involves some forms of interpretation and judgment made at the embassy and the POE.
Thus, Law, the construction and application of it is NOT simple English, it's something judges, lawyers and law students spend a whole first year in law school mastering. So congratulations on graduating from elementary school, which is irrelevant.
KCC is doing what they are paid to do - processing applications. The Attorney General should have given them an internal memo, or field menu for what status should a someone who has entered into previous same-sex marriage declare. Without that, they can't answer a legal question. It has nothing to do with time, or how important someone's question is. I am also certain the people employed by KCC have mastered "plain English . . . taught at elementary school" quite well, but still even they would disagree with you, masematn, that there is such a simple and easy answer to Amalgam's question.
Amalgam, you are right to also think of the future consequences, to you and your partner. A word of caution is that if your partner plans to visit you on a tourist visa in the future, he might have trouble proving the lack of immigrant intent should you choose to declare "married." But do it right and do it right the first time, wait for some answers from Lambda Legal. You will have a lot less headache later on then to take some over-simplified advice here.
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One thing for sure. Your husband/partner will not be issued a DV visa / green card by the U.S Government because the U.S doesn't recognize same-sex marriage in the Federal level or for immigration purposes. No matter what the law in your home country says about same-sex marriage. A good example is polygamy, no matter how legal it is in some countries to have more than 1 wife, it is still not recognized in the U.S.
As far as putting single or married in the application, HKAndy is right. Find an immigration lawyer that can help you can answer. If not, you just have to put whatever you feel is the right answer and wait until you get interviewed by the Consular to explain your situation.
Something to consider. Would you be willing to be separated by your husband/partner if he couldn't come to the U.S with you? Even when you become a U.S Citizen someday, there's a slim to no chance that you will be able to bring your partner to the U.S. Unlike straight married couple who can always sponsor their spouse at later date.
When it comes to equal rights for LGBT, the U.S is still behind some countries like Canada, Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, Sweden, etc. However it is still a lot better than most countries in the world. Improvement is slow, in some case, it goes in reverse, like what happen with Proposition 8.
I hope things get sorted out for you.
As far as putting single or married in the application, HKAndy is right. Find an immigration lawyer that can help you can answer. If not, you just have to put whatever you feel is the right answer and wait until you get interviewed by the Consular to explain your situation.
Something to consider. Would you be willing to be separated by your husband/partner if he couldn't come to the U.S with you? Even when you become a U.S Citizen someday, there's a slim to no chance that you will be able to bring your partner to the U.S. Unlike straight married couple who can always sponsor their spouse at later date.
When it comes to equal rights for LGBT, the U.S is still behind some countries like Canada, Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, Sweden, etc. However it is still a lot better than most countries in the world. Improvement is slow, in some case, it goes in reverse, like what happen with Proposition 8.
I hope things get sorted out for you.
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The Netherlands will automatically add "e/v XXX" (spouse of XXX) to your name if you get married and then get a new passport. That way you can freely use your own or your partner's name. However, from e/v there is NO WAY to deduct whether you are married to a man or a woman. It just says you ARE married.
I could only imagine what will happen if you give a cranky immigration officer at your POE a sealed envelope containing documents that list you as unmarried (or single, whatever) and then a passport that says you are the spouse of XXX. Good luck explaining all that on the spot without a legal expert or the embassy backing the whole story up. Add to that the average intellectual level and patience of US immigration officers and you've got a Greek tragedy waiting to happen.
I could only imagine what will happen if you give a cranky immigration officer at your POE a sealed envelope containing documents that list you as unmarried (or single, whatever) and then a passport that says you are the spouse of XXX. Good luck explaining all that on the spot without a legal expert or the embassy backing the whole story up. Add to that the average intellectual level and patience of US immigration officers and you've got a Greek tragedy waiting to happen.
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Hi everyone!
Today I've got the answer from the embassy. They said I have to put "single". They was pretty breefly by the way. Just one word "single' and a signature
LAMBDA told me that they can't answer my question and recomended to direct my question to Immigration Equality but by now I haven't receive anything from them during last 2 days.
Today I've got the answer from the embassy. They said I have to put "single". They was pretty breefly by the way. Just one word "single' and a signature
LAMBDA told me that they can't answer my question and recomended to direct my question to Immigration Equality but by now I haven't receive anything from them during last 2 days.