Question for those who applied for the passport book and card separately

aureum said:
It would be nice if the USPS officer could just see your naturalization certificate, and verify with the USCIS' record that you are a citizen, so you wouldn't have to mail your nice, new certificate. Or, that a photocopy would do, and the passport agency could verify with USCIS' that you are a citizen. Or, that a high-res. scan would do.

It's a valuable document, since it costs $345, and up to one year, to replace, if needed.

Question for those of you receiving your certificate back after your passport, was it mailed unfolded in a full-size envelope, or was it folded into a smaller one?
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Folded in small envelope.
 
aureum said:
It would be nice if the USPS officer could just see your naturalization certificate, and verify with the USCIS' record that you are a citizen, so you wouldn't have to mail your nice, new certificate.
Click to expand...

Would be even nicer if a replacement naturalization certificate cost $30 or less, like replacing a US birth certificate. That $345 fee is a big scam.

Question for those of you receiving your certificate back after your passport, was it mailed unfolded in a full-size envelope, or was it folded into a smaller one?
Click to expand...
Mine was unfolded in a large envelope, but it was bent into a "U" shape to fit into the mailbox.
 
The passport card comes with an RFID blocking envelope, but I agree that you need not carry it everywhere unless you live near the border. If you lose it, that's another annoying hassle.

I was glad to apply for my passport in person as the naturalisation certificate was generally treated well. My passport on the other hand is now faded and slightly dirty at the edges of the pages (2 years later; 8 more to go...), but that's how a well travelled passport ought to look like, eh?
 
Jackolantern said:
Would be even nicer if a replacement naturalization certificate cost $30 or less, like replacing a US birth certificate. That $345 fee is a big scam.
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Yes, $345 seems totally unjustified, since it takes very little work for them to just review their record, and then print out and send a new piece of paper.
 
It's just another way to gouge naturalised citizens...

Also, the size is ungainly. Canada issues, or used to issue, little citizenship cards. It would be GREAT if the US started doing that.
 
komaro said:
Well, USCIS is run almost entirely on user fees. So I wouldn't say so.
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You think the production of a replacement birth certificate is subsidized by taxpayers to the extent of hundreds of dollars each, in order to bring the cost down to $20-$30? I don't think so. The replacement naturalization certificate costs 10-20 times as much as replacing a birth certificate either because USCIS is grossly inefficient or they're profiteering.
 
One reason for having a very high replacement fee, and very long replacement time, for something, can be to encourage people to take very good care of it, and to see it as very valuable, whereas something with a low replacement fee, which can be regained quickly, might be seen as cheap, and might not be taken care of well. However, I wonder if USCIS is reasoning that way...
 
I don't think so. Some people don't have anything and might need this help with subsidization.
The fact is that USCIS is run on user fees and whatever you pay doesn't go straight into government's treasury, it goes back to USCIS.
 
komaro said:
I don't think so. Some people don't have anything and might need this help with subsidization.
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If they want to charge something like an extra 30% above the cost of labor/materials/overhead to pay for other USCIS activities like processing asylees, that's reasonable cross-subsidization. But not an extra 500% and more.
 
We're seeing more user-subsidisation in the consular service, too. Passport prices have gone up because of this, and additional pages, which used to cost nothing, are $82 now. Adding pages does not actually cost $82. They often do it in front of you in 10 minutes at an embassy. To have 1 page notarised at an embassy, they charge $50. I know someone buying a house in Europe who had to spend almost $1500 because of the number of documents that needed to be notarised by the embassy. It's insanity. But, the need to pass on more of the cost to the consumer is used as a pretense for this theft.
 
cafeconleche said:
To have 1 page notarised at an embassy, they charge $50. I know someone buying a house in Europe who had to spend almost $1500 because of the number of documents that needed to be notarised by the embassy.
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Why was it necessary for the embassy to notarize documents for somebody in Europe? Are there no notaries (or recognized equivalent) in the country where he/she was staying? Or was there some law that prevented going to the local notaries there?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Something about US documents (bank documents, birth certificate, etc.) requiring authentication by the US embassy). Yes, local documents can be notarised by local notaries. But here's the other thing about notaries in Europe, or at least, in Germany. They study law (not law school, but maybe a bachelor's in law or so) in order to become notaries. There's no quick 2-week internet notary certification course here, hehe, so they charge a lot for the service anyway.
 
Jackolantern, congrats on your naturalisation!

I just wanted to add couple of things. First of all, do not expect to be treated better by the CBP because of your US citizenship. From my experience, the treatment by the CBP remained the same as compared to when I was an LPR. The treatment by the CBSA, however, became worse (more questions, unfriendliness, etc). Just to be fair, the CBP treats native-born US citizens in the same manner ;)

Now, let's see what happens when you want to renew one document whilst retaining the other (your sole reason for applying at different times). If you want to use DS-82, you would have to send the other document anyway because that is how DS-82 works. If you want to use DS-11 to renew either passport card or book and retain the other document, there might be a problem. The DS-11 asks if you have ever been issued a passport book or card. The following are the choices if you selected "Yes":

  • Submitting with application
  • Lost
  • Stolen
  • In my possession (if expired)
So, as you can see, even when applying for a passport card/book using DS-11, the Dept of State wants you to submit all non-expired documents issued by them that are in your possession. There appear to be no way to keep passport card whilst renewing passport book (and vice versa) using DS-11 with just a naturalisation certificate.

I also agree that the procedure to replace a lost/stolen naturalisation certificate is ridiculous, especially comparing it to how easily native-born citizens can replace their lost birth certificates. Naturalisation certificate already looks like a cheap decorative piece of paper with sub-standard security features, yet it plays a very important role in all this bureaucratic machinery. It would be much better, in my opinion, if the USCIS and Department of State established a reliable and efficient cross-reference system, so that they would not need an original document to confirm the status. Would it not be nice if the USCIS did away with issuing a fancy certificate and instead give a piece of paper with printed naturalisation number that the Department of State then used to verify your status electronically? Nothing to lose, nothing to replace, not having to pay $$$ to the USCIS... just a number. Prove your identity with any ID document (driving licence, passport [card], etc) and provide your citizenship number to apply for a passport - easy and efficient. US passport [card] then can be used for any other government and private agency that cannot electronically verify the status.

By the way, this is the model that Canadian CIC has moved to. Now, they issue an A4-sized citizenship certificates that do not have a photo or any fancy security features. It cannot be used as an ID anywhere and is only used for the Passport Canada (agency issuing passports) to electronically retrieve the citizenship status from the CIC database. It still has to be physically send to Passport Canada though, and I am not sure what is the process to replace a lost/stolen certificate.
 
König said:
Jackolantern, congrats on your naturalisation!

I just wanted to add couple of things. First of all, do not expect to be treated better by the CBP because of your US citizenship. From my experience, the treatment by the CBP remained the same as compared to when I was an LPR. The treatment by the CBSA, however, became worse (more questions, unfriendliness, etc). Just to be fair, the CBP treats native-born US citizens in the same manner ;)

Now, let's see what happens when you want to renew one document whilst retaining the other (your sole reason for applying at different times). If you want to use DS-82, you would have to send the other document anyway because that is how DS-82 works. If you want to use DS-11 to renew either passport card or book and retain the other document, there might be a problem. The DS-11 asks if you have ever been issued a passport book or card. The following are the choices if you selected "Yes":

  • Submitting with application
  • Lost
  • Stolen
  • In my possession (if expired)
So, as you can see, even when applying for a passport card/book using DS-11, the Dept of State wants you to submit all non-expired documents issued by them that are in your possession. There appear to be no way to keep passport card whilst renewing passport book (and vice versa) using DS-11 with just a naturalisation certificate.

I also agree that the procedure to replace a lost/stolen naturalisation certificate is ridiculous, especially comparing it to how easily native-born citizens can replace their lost birth certificates. Naturalisation certificate already looks like a cheap decorative piece of paper with sub-standard security features, yet it plays a very important role in all this bureaucratic machinery. It would be much better, in my opinion, if the USCIS and Department of State established a reliable and efficient cross-reference system, so that they would not need an original document to confirm the status. Would it not be nice if the USCIS did away with issuing a fancy certificate and instead give a piece of paper with printed naturalisation number that the Department of State then used to verify your status electronically? Nothing to lose, nothing to replace, not having to pay $$$ to the USCIS... just a number. Prove your identity with any ID document (driving licence, passport [card], etc) and provide your citizenship number to apply for a passport - easy and efficient. US passport [card] then can be used for any other government and private agency that cannot electronically verify the status.

By the way, this is the model that Canadian CIC has moved to. Now, they issue an A4-sized citizenship certificates that do not have a photo or any fancy security features. It cannot be used as an ID anywhere and is only used for the Passport Canada (agency issuing passports) to electronically retrieve the citizenship status from the CIC database. It still has to be physically send to Passport Canada though, and I am not sure what is the process to replace a lost/stolen certificate.
Click to expand...

I recently renewed my son's passport and passport card by submitting only the passport book with the application.
 
nkm-oct23 said:
I recently renewed my son's passport and passport card by submitting only the passport book with the application.
Click to expand...
Was your son's passport card expired at that time? You can't renew a passport card without sending your non-expired passport card to the State Department because you will end up with two valid passport cards. What form did you use? I am not saying it can't be done, only that there does not seem to be a way without marking incorrect fields on the application.
 
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