SusieQQQ
Well-Known Member
I think they can issue travel papers to put it in. But you need to sort out the other documents ...and I presume you will need something to prove to them why you can't get a passport from your home country.
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- Thread starter SusieQQQ
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I think they can issue travel papers to put it in. But you need to sort out the other documents ...and I presume you will need something to prove to them why you can't get a passport from your home country.
Riopadrao
Member
What do you think of the communication/community engagement done by embassies around the DV lottery? I think there's a lot of misunderstanding and confusion about the DV lottery in the mind of an ordinary individual, and that's mainly why visa agents have thrived so much and fraud has become rampant around the DV lottery.
SusieQQQ
Well-Known Member
If you are asking my personal opinion? I think there is so much stuff available on the Internet its a shame people don't do research before they pay money. I'm not sure how much outreach the embassies can be expected to do especially when DV visas are a literally a fraction of a percent of all the visas embassies deal with every year.
Riopadrao
Member
People like you and I, and so many others in these threads can be expected to do online research. But we have to understand that we only represent 0.01% of the average mindset. It is sad but most people hear about the DV from the 1st time through a shady "visa agent/consultant" and this is true for most countries worldwide.
And I believe there's also a mindset problem. Embassies in most countries, especially US embassies, are perceived as unapproachable bunkers that ordinary people only interact with if summoned,etc.
After doing some personal research, I discovered that, for example, U.S. embassies in Europe have videos in local languages, press conferences, etc about the DV lottery, which I think is the right way to communicate to a wide audience and empower potential eligible applicants to apply on their own without visa agents.
Embassies in Africa, for ex, don't take such steps to make sure correct information is spread about the DV lottery or any other type of visas for that matter.
Moreover, when I look at the statistics concerning the total number of visas issued since 2004, some countries have consistently had 0 DV visas issued in the past 10 years (at least) and I think that's not what the program aims to do. I'm not sure we can guarantee that in such a country there is NO eligible potential applicant?
That's why I believe most embassies are not doing their job to make a strong outreach especially around the DV lottery.
And I believe there's also a mindset problem. Embassies in most countries, especially US embassies, are perceived as unapproachable bunkers that ordinary people only interact with if summoned,etc.
After doing some personal research, I discovered that, for example, U.S. embassies in Europe have videos in local languages, press conferences, etc about the DV lottery, which I think is the right way to communicate to a wide audience and empower potential eligible applicants to apply on their own without visa agents.
Embassies in Africa, for ex, don't take such steps to make sure correct information is spread about the DV lottery or any other type of visas for that matter.
Moreover, when I look at the statistics concerning the total number of visas issued since 2004, some countries have consistently had 0 DV visas issued in the past 10 years (at least) and I think that's not what the program aims to do. I'm not sure we can guarantee that in such a country there is NO eligible potential applicant?
That's why I believe most embassies are not doing their job to make a strong outreach especially around the DV lottery.
Britsimon
Super Moderator
I don't understand why you have a perception that the embassies are not "doing their job" in the outreach. You seem to think the USA are "asking" for people to come and should take their "work" more seriously. That is clearly NOT correct thinking. The DV program and the activities around it are an accommodation for people. The USA is offering a chance, once that may soon end, and the embassies play a supporting role. I think they actually do that very well. Human greed and the willingness of some to be exploited is what allows agents to do so well in some countries - but it is completely unfair to blame the US embassies for that.
Riopadrao
Member
You got me wrong there, don't blame the US government for the failure of certain embassies in carrying out what they ARE instructed to do by the State Department.
What I'm saying is not just around the DV lottery, it concerns any intercultural activities. Embassies are not just outposts for political cooperation, they are also places where 2 cultures meet, which implies effective and reciprocal communication.
Now, bearing that in mind, and having read countless congressional reports and official responses from both critics and supporters of the DV lottery, I think that embassies are definitely to blame for the persistent lack of information around not just the DV lottery (this is where high incidence of fraud and abuse is seen because of the huge numbers of applications) but also around immigration in general.
Then I look at the State Department, which has done tremendous work to ease the application process, shift from paper to electronic application, etc; which is great (by the way, they do conduct press conferences at the beginning of the DV lottery every year, kudos!).
However, who is supposed to carry the State Department's message on the field?? Embassies of course!
All I'm saying is, embassies keep complaining about fraud and visa agents/consultants, but they don't step up to the task to mitigate the problem. And knowing realities on the ground, I remain convinced of this fact.
Also, what I appreciate in these threads of ours is not just that we share experiences about the DV lottery, which I remain convinced is a good program, but also that we share different perspectives around the DV lottery (I can tell you without fear of being proven wrong that the plague of visa agents and visa consultants stems from a deep misunderstanding around the DV lottery which in turn is allowed to continue because embassies don't understand the realities/misconceptions on the ground).
To illustrate and summarize my point, this is a video done by the US embassy in Belgrade:
And below that I'm sure you can see countless videos from embassies in the same region also doing the same kind of outreach. Why did these consular officers go on TV and make animation movies?? Because they understand the real problems on the ground. That's the kind of Embassy DV lottery support I want to see EVERYWHERE, and I have to be honest and say most embassies are not doing the same. And blame me for saying this, but I think they're not stepping up to the task of they can't identify the key contributors of fraud and abuse around the DV lottery, and by doing so they fail in "supporting the DV lottery".
Simon, I don't blame you for your views, they show some of your true convictions that people ought to do more research, etc, that's fine and I believe that too(we are part of the dotcom generation, that's why we're on this thread in the 1st place, and not being exploited as you).
However, being a modern and open-minded person, I also know that failure to recognize the root problems that cause fraud and abuse by visa agents is failure to really improve the DV lottery.
Deep down in you mind, do you SERIOUSLY believe a grown adult in their right mind would "love" to be exploited?? That's a bit extreme, don't you think? No man would knowingly love to be exploited out of thousands of dollars if they knew information was to be found somewhere. Not to forget that these scams have also populated the web in huge numbers.
What I'm saying is not just around the DV lottery, it concerns any intercultural activities. Embassies are not just outposts for political cooperation, they are also places where 2 cultures meet, which implies effective and reciprocal communication.
Now, bearing that in mind, and having read countless congressional reports and official responses from both critics and supporters of the DV lottery, I think that embassies are definitely to blame for the persistent lack of information around not just the DV lottery (this is where high incidence of fraud and abuse is seen because of the huge numbers of applications) but also around immigration in general.
Then I look at the State Department, which has done tremendous work to ease the application process, shift from paper to electronic application, etc; which is great (by the way, they do conduct press conferences at the beginning of the DV lottery every year, kudos!).
However, who is supposed to carry the State Department's message on the field?? Embassies of course!
All I'm saying is, embassies keep complaining about fraud and visa agents/consultants, but they don't step up to the task to mitigate the problem. And knowing realities on the ground, I remain convinced of this fact.
Also, what I appreciate in these threads of ours is not just that we share experiences about the DV lottery, which I remain convinced is a good program, but also that we share different perspectives around the DV lottery (I can tell you without fear of being proven wrong that the plague of visa agents and visa consultants stems from a deep misunderstanding around the DV lottery which in turn is allowed to continue because embassies don't understand the realities/misconceptions on the ground).
To illustrate and summarize my point, this is a video done by the US embassy in Belgrade:
Simon, I don't blame you for your views, they show some of your true convictions that people ought to do more research, etc, that's fine and I believe that too(we are part of the dotcom generation, that's why we're on this thread in the 1st place, and not being exploited as you).
However, being a modern and open-minded person, I also know that failure to recognize the root problems that cause fraud and abuse by visa agents is failure to really improve the DV lottery.
Deep down in you mind, do you SERIOUSLY believe a grown adult in their right mind would "love" to be exploited?? That's a bit extreme, don't you think? No man would knowingly love to be exploited out of thousands of dollars if they knew information was to be found somewhere. Not to forget that these scams have also populated the web in huge numbers.
Britsimon
Super Moderator
The US embassy are not the law enforcement in those countries. They are "minding their own business" because they are operating with respect to the local administration. So - when I have talked to people in these forums that have been exploited I have never said - go to the embassy - but I have said go to the police. So again it is disingenuous to suggest the embassy should be doing more. It is quite clear they cannot do more. If there is an agent right outside their door conning people - it is none of their business. All they can do is publish repeatedly, as they do, that people don't need to pay anyone to go through this process.
As for people LOVING being exploited. I never said that - I said they are "willing". Of course they don't LOVE the experience once they realize they are being exploited, but they willingly made themselves victims. I feel terrible about that and have expressed my distaste about that many times. However, it is particularly rife in the African continent - but that is exactly the same mentality that has allowed the proliferation of religious exploitation in the region on a MUCH larger scale than the DV lottery - and to be perfectly honest that worries me far more than being critical of the US embassies for not doing more to stamp out the exploitation. The answer to both problems is information and education - but there will always be greedy people and there will always be victims who want to believe in someone or something rather than doing their own research/thinking. All I can do is help pick up the pieces and do my bit to spread good information.
Riopadrao
Member
Hmm, I understand your point on enforcing the law and prevent scams (doing the work of the police, obviously the embassies can't do that, and shouldn't do that. That's up to local law enforcement). I perfectly understand you on this point and I couldn't agree more. Religious sects are a more serious plague.
However, when I look at what other embassies -like the one in Belgrade- are doing to pick up the pieces and spread correct information (which is really the right way to comprehensively support the DV lottery) I can't help but be more critical of embassies that don't do the same (local language press conference, TV/Radio, animation clips, etc. which is exactly what I call clear communication and clear community engagement).
During my personal research, I went into USCIS proceedings in the US. Turns out they have strong community engagement events in multiple languages around naturalization, family-based,employment-based immigration, etc. They hold YouTube Q&As events, and Google Hangouts, etc. I don't expect every embassy to do the same on the ground, but at least hold a press conference or TV (as you can see in those YouTube videos).
Personally I think that would help a lot in mitigating the huge misinformation on the ground.
But an embassy that has consistently seen 0 DV applicant or 0 DV visa issued at its post though it has the prerogative to issue immigrant visa and continues to complain about fraud is really an embassy that is disconnected from the local reality of the area where it operates.
I'm my opinion, some embassies do an excellent job in supporting the DV lottery through communication that is targeted at key misconceptions and misunderstandings, while others fall short of their instructions to support the DV lottery and complain about fraud WITHOUT even conducting serious surveys as to why misconceptions remain rampant.
You raise a good point about reminding people that the process is free. How many people do you think access embassies websites in most African countries?? I've got news for you: very few. Why is that the case?? Well, because of what I said earlier, ordinary people don't event think about check an embassy website because they don't have any business with the embassy (an ordinary school teacher in a remote area for ex.) Embassies are perceived in many African countries as off-limit areas.
But through the radio for ex, such misconceptions can be mitigated. In the West, I can imagine some people may not fully appreciate the power of a radio station, but I can tell you that it makes a huge difference in most African communities.
You also make a good point, about sharing good information. Let me tell you of a story that even an open-minded person like you Simon would find very surprising:
Last month I talked to a gentleman of my age while visiting the refugee camp where I used to live. We discussed about many things and at some point the story of the DV lottery came up. Now, I was basically breaking the news of the DV lottery's existence to this person. He asked me a question that on the spot surprised me but that I slowly came to understand. He told me: "I thought people can only live where they were born. How can somebody from here go to the U.S." I explained to him the whole purpose of the program, then in the end he asked me: "ok, but that may work for people from Europe or other G20 countries. But how can that work for somebody like me". I had to take him through a big chunk of the history of US immigration (from the national origin Act to the DV lottery in the 90s) to cast out his misconceptions
The reason why I'm telling you and our friends on this thread this story is to show you the kind of bias that is out there, they may sound outlandish at first but when you see the environment these misconceptions come from, you understand. This person I was talking to was a school teacher from South Sudan. Which prompted me to look at DV statistics for South Sudan (...you can imagine my disappointment...).
However, when I look at what other embassies -like the one in Belgrade- are doing to pick up the pieces and spread correct information (which is really the right way to comprehensively support the DV lottery) I can't help but be more critical of embassies that don't do the same (local language press conference, TV/Radio, animation clips, etc. which is exactly what I call clear communication and clear community engagement).
During my personal research, I went into USCIS proceedings in the US. Turns out they have strong community engagement events in multiple languages around naturalization, family-based,employment-based immigration, etc. They hold YouTube Q&As events, and Google Hangouts, etc. I don't expect every embassy to do the same on the ground, but at least hold a press conference or TV (as you can see in those YouTube videos).
Personally I think that would help a lot in mitigating the huge misinformation on the ground.
But an embassy that has consistently seen 0 DV applicant or 0 DV visa issued at its post though it has the prerogative to issue immigrant visa and continues to complain about fraud is really an embassy that is disconnected from the local reality of the area where it operates.
I'm my opinion, some embassies do an excellent job in supporting the DV lottery through communication that is targeted at key misconceptions and misunderstandings, while others fall short of their instructions to support the DV lottery and complain about fraud WITHOUT even conducting serious surveys as to why misconceptions remain rampant.
You raise a good point about reminding people that the process is free. How many people do you think access embassies websites in most African countries?? I've got news for you: very few. Why is that the case?? Well, because of what I said earlier, ordinary people don't event think about check an embassy website because they don't have any business with the embassy (an ordinary school teacher in a remote area for ex.) Embassies are perceived in many African countries as off-limit areas.
But through the radio for ex, such misconceptions can be mitigated. In the West, I can imagine some people may not fully appreciate the power of a radio station, but I can tell you that it makes a huge difference in most African communities.
You also make a good point, about sharing good information. Let me tell you of a story that even an open-minded person like you Simon would find very surprising:
Last month I talked to a gentleman of my age while visiting the refugee camp where I used to live. We discussed about many things and at some point the story of the DV lottery came up. Now, I was basically breaking the news of the DV lottery's existence to this person. He asked me a question that on the spot surprised me but that I slowly came to understand. He told me: "I thought people can only live where they were born. How can somebody from here go to the U.S." I explained to him the whole purpose of the program, then in the end he asked me: "ok, but that may work for people from Europe or other G20 countries. But how can that work for somebody like me". I had to take him through a big chunk of the history of US immigration (from the national origin Act to the DV lottery in the 90s) to cast out his misconceptions
The reason why I'm telling you and our friends on this thread this story is to show you the kind of bias that is out there, they may sound outlandish at first but when you see the environment these misconceptions come from, you understand. This person I was talking to was a school teacher from South Sudan. Which prompted me to look at DV statistics for South Sudan (...you can imagine my disappointment...).
Britsimon
Super Moderator
For all the concern, africa still has more entries, more sekectees and more winners than any other region. There have been several Facebook chats by various embassies. I have heard a radio interview from (if my memory serves me) ghana. I'm sure there is sufficient outreach. Some African countries are underrepresented, but then so are many other countries in other regions. The lottery is your place if birth. The USA can't fix it for everyone.
SusieQQQ
Well-Known Member
I'm going to firstly disagree with your '0.01%' statistic because it's clearly made up, as is your claim that 'most people' hear about the lottery from shady agents. If this was the case, the majority of countries would have entries through visa agents but in fact it is only a handful of countries where these are prevalent. Moreover , not all of them are shady - for example they seem to be widely appreciated in Nepal as doing a decent job.
Secondly, ask yourself why people have Internet access to complain about being scammed but somehow don't have it before then? Does this not seem strange to you?
Also why is it embassies' job to do strong outreach, when the lottery is clearly already doing what it is meant to?
Anyway, if you do your research a bit more, there are a number of US embassies outside Europe who do outreach. Facebook has a number of non-european embassies doing Q&A on DV and other issues. Nairaland (it is only recently nigeria is no longer eligible) even had a US consular official answering questions on the forum, demonstrating patience with even the most ludicrous questions.
As for the mindset problem, believe me, as a national of an African country I have dealt with a number of embassies. The US is pretty middle of the road when it comes to experiences, so I'm not sure why you're trying to blame them for this either.
SusieQQQ
Well-Known Member
So a school teacher does not know that people can, in principle, immigrate and emigrate? And somehow that is the fault of the local US embassy?
Do you know that the US is exceptionally flexible on civil documents for South Sudan because it is aware of the problems people have in getting the same format as from Europe or even many other African countries?
If you have been in South Sudan you must clearly be aware that whatever issues prevent a lot of take up of DV visas from there, it probably has zero to do with information from the US embassy. I mean, if someone is supposedly educated to be able to be an educator themselves, and yet does not know about something that happens all the time (migration flows), I have to wonder (1) what information sources they use in general in their lives and (2) how you expect the US embassy to provide information against that background. What do you want it to do, helicopter drop entry forms?
Riopadrao
Member
Their information and community engagement will clear people's ignorance. The lack of information reinforces ignorance. Embassies should communicate more, how else do you think mindset changes? Communication plays a part.
All I am saying is, there remains a lot of ignorance out there and it contributes to fraud. Period. If the embassies have the slightest care about mitigating the problem they should tackle it more seriously.
Riopadrao
Member
IF they do that in Ghana, well and good.
But why just Facebook? Why not the radio? That's what I'm saying, we should be more practical.
Riopadrao
Member
Instead of using helicopters, why not radio and TV? Do you really think every secondary school teacher knows about migration across oceans??? You guys seem unaware that not everybody share our basic understanding of the world in 2015.
Riopadrao
Member
It's not just about numbers, it's about tackling problems on the ground, problems that-should I remind you-are threatening the very existence of the DV lottery through congress.
SusieQQQ
Well-Known Member
Can I be blunt? When I looked back at a number of your posts, your stories don't seem to add up. (And you've just again subtly changed your previous point in the statement above). I'm not sure who you are or exactly what your agenda is, but I volunteer my time here mainly to try help people who need help and advice. Maybe you're legit and you are who you say you are, and if so I apologise, but I have better things to do with my time than debate whether US embassies should be paying for airtime.
Britsimon
Super Moderator
I had just written I have heard radio interviews with US embassy staff. I agree with SusieQQQ, you don't seem to be interested in a logical discussion, you just seem to want to make a point that the US embassies are responsible for the systemic fraud levels in countries around the world. It's a ridiculous point of view. We have explained why, but you don't want to listen.
EmilyW
Well-Known Member
I'll be honest that, when I first realised the DV was open to me as an option, I wanted to use an agent.
But then I did my research. Read here on the forums. Read the legislation. Found others who had gone through it and gotten their opinion. Because, if I was going to undertake something as life changing as immigrating and making a new life in another country, I wanted to be sure I knew what I was getting myself into from the start.
It is not - IMO - the embassy's job to do people's research for them. Anyone who doesn't do their own research and own due diligence... well that's their problem. The embassy is doing people a favour by raising an awareness. It's not an obligation on their part if people are lazy and ignorant.
We see it every day on these boards of people asking the most basic of questions because they are failing to do their own due diligence. How is that anything to do with the embassies who are representatives of the US (not advocates of the citizens whose country they find themselves in) and are there to enforce US law?
But then I did my research. Read here on the forums. Read the legislation. Found others who had gone through it and gotten their opinion. Because, if I was going to undertake something as life changing as immigrating and making a new life in another country, I wanted to be sure I knew what I was getting myself into from the start.
It is not - IMO - the embassy's job to do people's research for them. Anyone who doesn't do their own research and own due diligence... well that's their problem. The embassy is doing people a favour by raising an awareness. It's not an obligation on their part if people are lazy and ignorant.
We see it every day on these boards of people asking the most basic of questions because they are failing to do their own due diligence. How is that anything to do with the embassies who are representatives of the US (not advocates of the citizens whose country they find themselves in) and are there to enforce US law?