Prove of US citizenship after naturalization?

[jayoa]

Oh yes? Under current law, if a non-LPR alien has to prove their status, guess what they'll show? Their passport! Which may or may not have a visa or I-94 in it, depending on which country they're from.

And guess what they show when applying for a driver's license? Their passport!

Who says they didn't enter with it? Some did and they overstayed, and some have visas.

In such as case they will have accompanying documents. For instance international students will have accompanying documents from SEVIS at the school they are enrolled in to enable them along with their passports to obtain IDs.

Can you give one example of how they'll use it for fraud and crime (in a manner that would be impossible or much more difficult without the ID), given that it would show their illegal status and be tied to a database entry of their fingerprints?

As i said before, it leaves a gaping loophole for fugitives, fraudsters, and other organized crimes/criminals to present themselves as illegals and obtain an ID that falsely represents them.

Your entire point seems to be that we need to maintain ID acquisition hardship to prevent masses of them from flooding in at the borders.

That is the whole point of Identity Management; you don't give it out willy-nilly to every Tom, Dick, and Harry that simply says I want one. I'm sure you have WiFi at home, do you let it all loose for every and anyone to connect to and flood into it just because they want to (of course you won't, but you will let your sister on because you know her in other words she is already verified by you)? Do companies give access to their systems and computer networks to just anyone simply because they ask for it (Of course not, but they will let their employees on the network because they've been verified & employed with them)? If you understand these simple analogies, you should easily know where I'm coming from. Anyway, if you do not understand it, I won't hold it against you because Identity Management is a beast on its own in the IT world. If you were in this field and talking like this then I will highly question your knowledge. But at least you see how important identifying legal status is prior to obtaining any form of ID with the DMV links I provided; it is the first thing to prove eligibility to determine if you even qualify to complete an application form for an ID or such benefits. To knowledgably discuss this issue requiers deep understanding of Identity Management and implications of heightening or lowering access control procedures/mechanisms that serve as checks & balances that make it so that only those eligible get it to retain its value, not layman "I want illegals (that should not be here in the first place) to have IDs". It just doesn't work that way.

 

[Al Southner]

Boys,

Knock-it-off already, this thread is becoming useless and a crocodile feeding frenzy. I see no value in fighting about something which will never become implemented by all states. However started this thread maybe needed a a response or two, but 40 responses later, only horse manure is being pelted from one poster to another. Guys, I am certain we can do better than this in the near future. As for those who think that Passport Cards can be used as proof of US citizenship, next time you go to the Passport Agency, ask one of the nice people who sits behind one those counters with butt-size glasses its true purpose.

 

[jayoa]

Boys,

Knock-it-off already, this thread is becoming useless and a crocodile feeding frenzy. I see no value in fighting about something which will never become implemented by all states. However started this thread maybe needed a a response or two, but 40 responses later, only horse manure is being pelted from one poster to another. Guys, I am certain we can do better than this in the near future. As for those who think that Passport Cards can be used as proof of US citizenship, next time you go to the Passport Agency, ask one of the nice people who sits behind one those counters with butt-size glasses its true purpose.

Al, its just a tete-a-tete, no biggie. Jackolantern is one of the great guys here, it just happens to be a subject of great interest thats all. Anyway, back to reality, the original posters questions would have been answered with the Passport Card as of this writing perhaps later there may be other options, until then.

 

[Jackolantern]

As i said before, it leaves a gaping loophole for fugitives, fraudsters, and other organized crimes/criminals to present themselves as illegals and obtain an ID that falsely represents them.

It's such a gaping hole, but you can't think of of an example, not even a hypothetical one? I see.

That is the whole point of Identity Management; you don't give it out willy-nilly to every Tom, Dick, and Harry that simply says I want one.

Correct , you don't give it out willy nilly, you should only give it to people who can properly identify themselves. What you apparently don't understand is that establishing identity and immigration status are two separate things. It just happens that since 9/11 most government entities have been effectively blending those two concepts into one, and the second depends on the first, so it gives the false impression that they're inextricably linked or equal to the same thing.

Anyway, we're obviously not going to convince each other of anything, so it's time to agree to disagree. Moderators please lock this thread.

 

[jayoa]

It's such a gaping hole, but you can't think of of an example, not even a hypothetical one? I see.



Correct , you don't give it out willy nilly, you should only give it to people who can properly identify themselves. What you apparently don't understand is that establishing identity and immigration status are two separate things. It just happens that since 9/11 most government entities have been effectively blending those two concepts into one, and the second depends on the first, so it gives the false impression that they're inextricably linked or equal to the same thing.

Anyway, we're obviously not going to convince each other of anything, so it's time to agree to disagree. Moderators please lock this thread.

Its okay, I know you'd rather have the last say, I'll let you have the last say, which is based on gut feelings as opposed to actual viable implementation models just so we can rest this issue. Of course a single national ID or several state IDs both have their pros and cons, but the premise behind the constitutional rights of the states to issue IDs is for them to do it on their own terms, but if any state decides to issue IDs to illegals then they themselves are aiding & abetting illegal immigration and the problem of illegal immigration will never end and will continue to be a problem as long as those states continue that practice and continue to blame DHS (just as Arizona is doing) instead of reviewing their own ID management practices that condones and encourages illegals when the feds don't issue a single form of ID to illegals to make it very inconvenient for them to do any kind of official transaction. If the various states know what they are doing, the normal process is that there is a question on ID application forms that ask about your legal status, and after selecting one (US Citizen, LPR, etc but not including "illegal/undocumented alien) you have to provide supporting documentation in the DMV list. This subject is one I have invested a lot of time researching for as a current ongoing project and am deeply involved in. I have provided you with details, documented requirements, analogies, etc but its up to you to understand the concepts and how it applies to DMVs and the identification process or continue to want illegals to have IDs. All you continue to do is state your gut feelings without any backing. I'm officially done with the discussion. Good luck.

 

[preeti2]

While it is true that there is a law requiring permanent residents to carry their green card, that doesn't mean any and every government agency can enforce it how they want when they want. It is a Federal law, and the who and how of enforcing it is controlled by Federal law and the Constitution.

For example, all residents and citizens of the US are required to file a Federal tax return if their income is above a given threshold (or if they have certain transactions the IRS needs to know about). But state police don't have the authority to go around knocking on people's doors demanding that they provide proof of filing a Federal tax return, or requiring you to provide that proof when stopped for speeding. That would be an overly invasive method of enforcing the tax laws, and the Federal government hasn't granted state police the authority to enforce the Federal tax laws like that. Similarly, Federal officers normally don't have the authority to enforce state tax laws.

The court that struck down that section of the law said that it would be overly burdensome to citizens*, legal residents, and the Federal government (who would have to deal with a barrage of requests to verify people's status), if the enforcement of the requirement to carry documents were done by state and local police in addition to Federal ICE/CBP officers.


*even though the AZ law doesn't require citizens to carry proof of citizenship, many would still get arrested for lacking those documents when the officer who stopped them doesn't believe their claim to citizenship.

It's the law to carry documents on you, like you said a federal law. if someone doesn't carry the documents, then I am not surprised that they would get arrested for it. maybe they deserve it for not following the law
an example:
Printing money is federal. what if states start printing their own fake money and switch it with the federal... cali money won't work in NY... it's the feds job...leave it upto them. if they ask for paperwork to be on you, let it be

 

[König]

In essence you are saying that Washington State has no list of requirements to obtain any form of ID, you can just walk in there and get one no matter who you are.

No, this is not what I said. I had to prove who I am by presenting identity documents. In my case it was an out-of-state DL. Not a proof of my legal presence, is it?

As far as I know you might have dealt with a new recruit who has no idea what he's doing, an under-trained rep, or one of the lazy reps. Here is the list of requirements for Washington State, check under A List and you will find legal status requirements; http://www.dol.wa.gov/driverslicense/idproof.html. FYI, such legal status requirements are usually in the first group of requirements as important as they are.

As far as I know, they did everything correctly (i.e., verify my identity but not my legal immigration status). I think you misunderstood the logical operand OR. It means you can present this document or that document. Not all documents in list A prove your legal status, so you can present two documents from list A that don't prove the legal status (e.g., out-of-state DL and a foreign DL). Or you can present 4 documents from list B none of which prove the legal status.

I think you are misunderstanding my points. Police officers do not stop and detain you simply for ID reasons. It is secondary to any original probable cause of a crime or arrest/detention. And if you come in the crosshairs of an investigation without an ID on you, you will go downtown with them to ID you, however they also now have mobile ID units that they use to take your prints right there and then in their van.

You clearly stated that state-issued IDs were non-voluntary. Did I miss something or you are trying a Straw Man argument with me? Re-read your own post #23.

I'm not sure where you got your information from, but you can't be more wrong and you need to check your details.
Here is the list of requirements for Illinois, see Group A for citizenship & residency status requirements; http://www.sos.state.il.us/publications/pdf_publications/dsd_x173.pdf

Group A documents can be a credit card or a driver education certificate. Group B can be official high school transcript. Group C can have a SS card that was obtained when the person was in the country legally. Neither document proves legal status but they are enough to receive an Illinois ID card or a driving licence.

Here is the list of requirements for Utah, citizenship and residency requirements are written all over it; http://publicsafety.utah.gov/dld/acceptable_id.html

Did you miss the document requirements for undocumented applicants? Why would they even write the following: "If you are an undocumented Immigrant in the United States, you must provide the following documentation to obtain a Driving Privilege Card (DPC) or Learner Permit:". It is followed by the list of documents that do not prove legal presence... because the whole section is for UNDOCUMENTED immigrants So, how can you claim that Utah does not issue IDs to illegal immigrants if it is explicitly stated on the Utah's website?

Here is the list of requirements for New Mexico, read through and find it clearly written there; http://www.mvd.newmexico.gov/Drivers/Licensing/pages/MVD-Proof-of-Identity.aspx

Am illegal immigrant from Mexico can bring a Matricula consular card, a Mexican birth certificate and two utility bills and he/she will receive a NM driving licence. A visa overstayer from Russia can bring Russian passport with expired I-94, a Russian birth certificate and two utility bills and he/she will still get a NM driving licence. Do these two scenarios cover most of illegal immigrants in the USA? I think so. Now, tell me how exactly the state of New Mexico requires the legal status?

None of this is in support of US national security or is in any way a secure solution. If citizens and residents alike can have a drive or non-driver ID that also carries information about their legal status for law enforcement and border patrol to access then that is essentially one document that serves the purposes that are needed instead of carrying multiple confusing documents all over the place including those from other countries passports, drive licenses, IDs, etc that cannot be authenticated by local law enforcement units, what muddy water all of that will create.

Really? 50 different driving licences are easier to authenticate than one single national ID card or a Green Card? As for foreign passports, it's the problem of local law enforcement agency if it cannot authenticate this document because there are already a lot of tourist or temporary visitors who are not required nor able to obtain a state-issued ID cards. How does police deal with them now?

Do you know why CBP dropped state-issued IDs and birth certificate for crossing a land or sea border? Because it was too hard for them to verify 50 different state-issued IDs/DLs and even more birth certificates. Now they accept a passport book/card, a Nexus or a FAST card. You advocate just the opposite. You seem to be confused.

Simply put, if the US state and federal authorities cannot authenticate and vet the credential or the applicant's identity prior to issuance of any form of ID, it is not acceptable.

I agree, but where does this statement fit in our conversation? The only document in my proposed plan that is not issued by the US local or federal authority would be a foreign passport. However, the US government does not have much choice but to trust foreign passports (unless they bear obvious marks of counterfeiting). Again, why do you oppose using one single national ID card instead of 50 different state-issued ID cards? I did not quite understand your reasons.

 

[preeti2]

THERE ARE SO MANY TROLLS HERE... WHY CAN'T YOU STFU AND QUIT POSTING LONG AS*S ESSAYS ... this is just a goddamn forum, not a competition to see who can type the longest essay. SOME OF YOU have no life... all you can do is sit here and comment on every single person's comment who disagrees with you,... get a life.. do something productive with your time rather than sitting on a chair and typing your no life skills.

 

[baikal3]

It's the law to carry documents on you, like you said a federal law. if someone doesn't carry the documents, then I am not surprised that they would get arrested for it. maybe they deserve it for not following the law

What are you talking about??

There is no law, federal or state, that requires U.S. citizens to carry ANY documents with them. Similarly, people on nonimmigrant visas are not required by federal law to carry any documents with them either. Green card holders are indeed required by federal law to carry a green card with them, but this is the only class of people for whom such a federal requirement exists.

 

[baikal3]

THERE ARE SO MANY TROLLS HERE...

Funny, that is exactly what I thought when i read your posts.

 

[Bobsmyth]

THERE ARE SO MANY TROLLS HERE... WHY CAN'T YOU STFU AND QUIT POSTING LONG AS*S ESSAYS ... this is just a goddamn forum, not a competition to see who can type the longest essay. SOME OF YOU have no life... all you can do is sit here and comment on every single person's comment who disagrees with you,... get a life.. do something productive with your time rather than sitting on a chair and typing your no life skills.

It's a valid discussion as long as it stays civil. There's absolutely no need for you to start bashing others based on the length and frequency of their posts.

 

[Al Southner]

It's the law to carry documents on you, like you said a federal law. if someone doesn't carry the documents, then I am not surprised that they would get arrested for it. maybe they deserve it for not following the law
an example:
Printing money is federal. what if states start printing their own fake money and switch it with the federal... cali money won't work in NY... it's the feds job...leave it upto them. if they ask for paperwork to be on you, let it be

If it is the law to carry those documentation or risk being arrested, then you yourself can carry all your immigration documentation as a law abiding LPR of this country. As for the rest of us who are enlightened, we will continue to use our drivers licenses as proof of govt issued ID, no need to carry your green card with you. Do you have examples of anyone who was arrested in the US between January 2007- December 2010, for failure to produce their green card when it was asked for by a police officer? I am willing to give you 3 years to look for such a case and post it on this forum, because federal immigration law and enforcement falls within the purview of the federal govt, except some states governed by nutty governors with a deep-seethed dislike of Hispanic community want to try to enforce it, something which our courts have struck down repeatedly. I wonder when you ever saw someone complain about the English, Norwegians, Swedish and other nationals of VWP who overstay their visas, but because they are white, no one cares to ask for their immigration papers. I have never being asked for my immigration paperwork ever, because it appears I fit in very well with the locals. I can't wait to see you carry your naturalization certificate with you all the time, what a gift to this country...

 

[Al Southner]

THERE ARE SO MANY TROLLS HERE... WHY CAN'T YOU STFU AND QUIT POSTING LONG AS*S ESSAYS ... this is just a goddamn forum, not a competition to see who can type the longest essay. SOME OF YOU have no life... all you can do is sit here and comment on every single person's comment who disagrees with you,... get a life.. do something productive with your time rather than sitting on a chair and typing your no life skills.

You are new to this forum, so trolling shouldn't even be in your vocabulary. Moreover, you should be in bed sleeping at 3:23am as opposed to lambasting people because you can't sleep at night....

 

[König]

I try not to go off-topic too often, but it gets on my nerve when people casually post wrong information here. However, it is surprising to see a member with 22 posts calling others trolls...

 

[olddude]

preeti2, speakamericano.....what ever screen name you take, please remember that freedom of speech is different from bullying (including cyber bullying). Just as you are confused with necessity of carrying ID on person, please do not confuse abusive behavior with freedome of speech. Freedom of speech comes with rules and ofcourse responsibility.