Program on Gujarat @9:00 on PBS on 9/19

my last

I thought I'd follow asdasd and keep my fingers tied but I couldn’t resist dma_va's posting.

Christians have always been accused of "conversion" or proselytizing. Even mother Theresa was accused of it and was attacked. The missionary who was killed was helping lepers. How many hindus help lepers? If someone cares for people like that he/she has every right to do influence them. They are not inciting violence, they are not physically abusing them. Hasn’t any hindu on this board not been eager to discuss Hinduism with locals? We always feel happy to see someone following our culture be it eating a dosa or wearing a saree. The last I heard was Dara singh who apparently burned the missionary along with his kids was supposed to contest an election. What the phuck is wrong with our people???
If you know the story about Mother Teresa she was constantly being harassed by hindu priests from a nearby Kali temple. One day a priest had fallen severely ill (don’t know if it was leprosy). The Hindus apparently threw him out of the colony and guess what, Mother picked him up and cared for him. The priests never troubled her again. But there are still people who think what she did was wrong.

What I am trying to convey is that if someone is converting to another it is because he or she is getting some benefit from it. If Hindu people want to maintain numbers why don’t they help the same people? So that the others don’t get a chance? On the contrary the same people will be ostracized as untouchables long after the bald ol great soul banned it! So its better for them to be Hindu live worse than animals in poverty and social prestige than follow other religion where they can be better off at least monetarily?

Please do not even attempt to call RSS as a noble organization. It has deteriorated to mindless fanatic organization that is to confuse nationalism with religious fundamentalism. If there is someone on this board who justifies Gandhiji's assassination, I don’t even think there is any point in arguing with him/her.

Also the last I heard, the queen did apologize when she visited India but I am not sure. Has the Indian govt apologized for the unnecessary killing of Srilankan Tamils?

As previously mentioned, this thread will run for pages. So I'll stop here.

Thanks!
 
My views mainly goes with Optimystique and patienceGC.

With due respect I would like to disagree with dma_va. Though you wouldn't have meant this, few of your statment giving a sign of 'it was kindof ok' killing the muslims as a tit-for-tat. At one point of time I felt as if you were talking for RSS.

Let me state one.

Irresspective of what your faith and practise, Killing innocent people has to condem in the highest level. No relegion gives any right to kill others. People do bad things and try to justify their acts by using relegion. Narendra modi was one of them...

Good and bad people exists in all relegion. Don't look at the bad people and say their relegion is bad. They are bad but not their relegion.
 
Basic Rule of Life

Basic Rule of Life
Everybody has rights to defend their selfs why dont u accept Hindus doing it
People who put Train Car on fire what was that ( Mistake? ) it was pre Planned
People who was in that Train were innocent they dont even have wepons so When Hindu are reacting back world thinks that they are wrong ? come on Personaly I dont take that Blame
how many Hindu terrorist group are there in world ? look at other side........
we Talking bout India as one Nation
than why do we have Seperate Law for Hindu and Muslims

Ignore Spell mistakes
 
Mallu123/PatienceGC,

I have been saying all thru that killing of commoner by a commener is the worst thing that can happen in a society irrespective of the religion.

It's the perverted leaders who we need to get rid of. That needs to be replaced by education and minimal decent SOL.

I did say that I hated (one person) for kiliing Gandhiji but then that shouldn't make us ignorant to numerous good deeds that they have been doing for decades.

PatienceGC, the "Queen" when asked actually refused to apologise. They haven't returned the Kohinoor as well.

U said let bygones be bygones. But there is well thought out statement "one is doomed if one doesn't learn from the history".

Why is that Japanses still insist on seeking apologies from USA for bombings.

As for Mother Teresa, I have no right to criticize her because I can't appreciate her organization for their deeds (due to lack of facts at my disposal). Here, I won't say anything against her but her organization has been known for channelizing money for purposes that go against the spirit of organization as being proclaimed.

Accept it or not, conversion is not a solution to upliftment. There r other ways of doing that.
 
One Last note on this:

You says: "I did say that I hated (one person) for kiliing Gandhiji but then that shouldn't make us ignorant to numerous good deeds that they have been doing for decades. "

What about thousands of people involved in this group/organization doing much worser things - Did you acknowledge that?

Further you states: "As for Mother Teresa, I have no right to criticize her because I can't appreciate her organization for their deeds (due to lack of facts at my disposal). Here, I won't say anything against her but her organization has been known
for channelizing money for purposes that go against the spirit of organization as being proclaimed".

You don't have to appreciate her organization, but do you acknoweldge the good things she did? I feel your views are kind of double standard. No offense!.

We can't justify comparing an organziation of RSS or similar one with organziation of Mother Teresa.

"conversion is not a solution to upliftment" - But if that make any better to any sect of people why not. I don't appreciate forceful conversion, but if they educate and if people understand the faith
in the right sense and if they belive that is the better then I don't see anything wrong in this.
 
My2cents

I was born in Hindu family. I don't fucking care about Ram Mandir in Ayodhya. I don't care about other three mosques where Hindus want to build temple. However I do care that Hindus, Muslims and everyone else who lives in India (Here after Indians) bring this population down to 100 Million, I do care that if Pakistan tries to disstabilize India , we all should teach them a lesson. In short we all have to observe common law which is good for India, regardless of what the fucking religion is.

ANTI INDIA ACTIVITY WHETHER BY ABU SALEM OR DAWOOD IBRAHIM WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.
 
What about thousands of people involved in this group/organization doing much worser

Mallu123,

Can u please mention a single instance where RSS has instigated on its own any kind of violence? Or it's people doing "worser things". I can see Gujarat happened recently but then I did mention about the "lesson", (after so many years of one way, unresponded attacks) not for common man of a particular religion but for their perverted leaders. And mind u, to say RSS was singularly responsible for Gujarat's hit-back in response to Godhra butchering will be like saying earth revolves around the moon.

As for Mother Teresa's organization, I didn't want to say anything coz I can't present hard evidence but if u don't want to put a blind eye to the larger picture, u would know how this organization has been immensly taking advantage of Govt. Of India's laxity in matters of tax-reliefs etc.. for decades. I won't blame the Mother due to her being frail and not in a position to control the bad elements of the organization, but these elements (not every body, no) have done sufficient harm to national exchequer and thousands/lacks of people's lives.

If this org, be so good, why is that Calcultta still has one of the largest number of destitutes in any metropolis of India despite decades of "good work" being done by this "organization".

Ofcourse RSS can't be compared with any other organization, it being so selfless and nationalistic with leaders like Lohia, Jai Prakash Narayan, Advani etc.


Education and upliftment thru conversion may be fine, but after 90% Mizoram having got converted, can u tell me how much of it has become a better place of living for its people? Have u read the last census report. Mizoram is still one of the most backward states (including other NE states) of India inspite of several decades of conversions there.

Hypothetical example, Ethipoia is also very poor. Would u send 1000 Indians to convert them to Hinduism and then try to educate them and uplift them?


Lastly, I said in my first mail that I have no business trying to propagate RSS's ideas but I still hold the belief that concerted efforts to educate and uplift poor man's SOL is the only way thru which the perverted religious and political leaders could be stopped from instigating communal violences in India and to my definite knowledge RSS is doing that job selfless for several decades irrespective of religion or beliefs.

U and I don't have to belong to any org. to do the same, but we must do our bit if we want majority of Indian people to be secular in their thoughts and actions.
 
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Re: What about thousands of people involved in this group/organization doing much worser

I agree that Population is a main problem of India. But why it became a problem. When India got independence, that time muslim population was only 2%. After 50yrs, they are almost 30%. Why they have grown?
If you see the history of India, Muslim invaded India in 13 century and in 20th century they earned pakistan and bangladesh(both were hindu lands for 2000yrs). Again India Divided and they got land.
I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happens to Kashmir or to any other state of India.
Since 1989, when J&K problem started again, What were Militants doing? They have been killing so many Hindus in J&K valley. They have killed almost 100 000 Hindus. But do we talk about them?
No. What we talk about? We talk about 2000 muslim died in Gujrat. Are these 2000 are more innocent than 100000 from J&K? I am not justifing the killing of 2000 but when we talk about innocent killing, we should not talk or protest only about Gujrat. Why all this western media doesn't show about J&K and what Hindu people have gone through since last 14yrs?
People lost their properties and their families.
Also I don't understand why Muslim are so stubborn about Babri mosque? We just want our mandir back, which is converted to a mosque by their king. I am sure we would have given one of our temple if Muslim had said that Mohammad was born on this piece of land where that temple is built. We are living together and we care about each other’s religion then why to create conflict? Why not be supportive?
Again coming back to the problem of population, we can't simply control that when there is no law on how many wives and children one can have.
After 50 or 100yrs, When Hindus will become minority is India, What will happen? Will Majority care about Minority?
Do you know what happened in Pakistan?
In 1947, There were Hindus in Pakistan. But did they grow like muslims in India? No. Did they get their rights? No. Now they are less than 1% in pakistan and living under fear. Why don't we talk about them?
And you guys are talking about RSS schools.
You should go to that school and attend, then talk.
I have been to that camp.
And what I learnt there?
Your god, your motherland, your mother and father are the most important in your life. Be a good man.
Is this a wrong teaching?
RSS is a Hindu organization and as a Hindu org, they never taught to kill anybody. That's not in our blood. Have we invaded any country in our history? Have we killed people of any religion in History? No. If we would have done that, We would not have seen Pakistan or Bangladesh on the map. Everybody would like to live in peace.
Do you know when there is any kind of calamity in India, who comes first? Answer is RSS. But they don't give their photographs in newspaper and that's why nobody knows how they helped.
I don't think Gujrat riot was an immediate reaction of godhra's killing. It was reaction of people who had problems with muslim community from decades. May be a Gujrati hindu would be able to explain, who lives there.

I know that most of you won't agree with my views now, but I am sure you will agree with me as time goes by.

I don’t have anything personal against muslim people. I have so many muslim friends and they are nice. But in a world where Hindus have majority, they should not be stubborn. They should be co-operative and should not listen from India’s foes.

Hindus will remain moderate but muslims have to be supportive.

A proud Indian.
 
HOW PAKISTAN FOOLS WORLD

India has been and will remain Pluralistic society. Our fight is not againsts Muslims in India , our fight should be with Anyone who doesn't obey Indian Law, Who are engaged in Anti-Indian activities and REMEMBER DON'T LET PAKISTAN TAKE AN ADVANTAGE OF OUR PLURALISUM.

*************************************************
How Pakistan fools the world
Harinder S. Sikka
Over the past five decades, Pakistan has done everything that should have put her in the bad books of the world. Repeated coups by army generals, widespread drug trafficking, arms trading, brutal killings of Shias and Christians, burning of churches, widespread lawlessness, open support to terrorists and mercenaries, corruption at the highest levels and draconian laws curtailing basic human rights, are but a few reasons why it should have been declared a terrorist state a long time ago.

There is a time-tested methodology behind trigger happy Pakistani generals styling themselves as presidents. Each of them used Kashmir as a political tool to remain in the hot seat. What is shocking though is that even those nations that champion the cause of democracy have repeatedly turned a blind eye to their bizarre acts. Indeed, there has been some adverse media coverage. But for some strange reason both the BBC and the CNN, as indeed other media organisations, have managed to fall short of coming up with full-fledged exposes.

In its special report on civil liberties in an August issue, The Economist quotes Amnesty International to suggest that Pakistan has been involved in only one area of human rights violation, viz erosion of rights at trial, in comparison to the European Union, India, Australia, Canada and USA, which have been found guilty on eight counts. It is, therefore, important to understand how Pakistan gets away with its transgressions in the eyes of the world.

Pakistan’s biggest strength lies in its public relations machinery. Evrybody, from the ambassador to the most humble official, is trained and funded by the ISI to cultivate useful people across the globe. The strength of its network can be gauged from the fact that Pakistan has been able to successfully push under the carpet the participation of its own soldiers in the war against the US forces in Afghanistan. The subsequent silence not only of the media barons but, more importantly, the US government, indicates the depth and effectiveness of this network.

Its second strong point lies in its ability to change colours faster than a chameleon. It is inherent in the Pakistani character to switch sides. Even after joining hands with the US in its war against terrorism, the ISI continued supporting the Al Qaida, harbouring hundreds of Taliban cadres inside its territory. Even the dreaded duo, Mullah Omar and Osama bin Laden, are suspected to be hibernating somewhere in northern Pakistan. Street smart that he is, Musharraf realises their ever-rising exchange value and is therefore able to successfully extract his pound of flesh from the US, much to India’s chagrin. He pleases the Americans by making tall statements and escapes through the ‘need more time’ route, leaving in his wake enticements in the shape of Taliban cadres. In the bargain, Musharraf reduces the US roar to a meek mew, even as he snuggles up to terror groups by fermenting trouble through mercenaries across the LoC.

Thirdly, Pakistan draws strength from India’s divided polity, indecisive leadership and its grossly abused democratic character. Despite being the most populous democracy in the world, backed by a disciplined armed forces, the leadership first lets a petty Pakistani dictator escape due punishment and then seeks the world attention by shouting that India has been assaulted. It pays little or no attention to the nuances of public relations, does not meet aggression on a war footing and instead seeks solace in Mahatma Gandhi’s doctrine about not hearing, seeing or speaking evil. Any nation worth its salt would have retaliated with full force after the attack on its Parliament or, for that matter, after any wanton massacre of its innocent citizens by goons from across the border.

By running each time to the US to sort out the problem, India has let Musharraf know its mettle. While the opposition leader is a cause of great comfort for India’s rulers, they should know that their own conduct of foreign policy has been a great source of comfort to the general next door.
 
JQuake..

Muslim population grew from 2% to 30% .....u got to be a total imbecile, a downright liar or combination of the above to be saying that. The Muslim population has been between 12%-15% after partition to the present. Check out the India census site at www.censusindia.net or the CIA world factbook at http://geography.about.com/library/cia/blcindia.htm . Contrary to what the VHP or other fascist organizations would like you to believe the Muslim population has grown in proportion with the general Indian population after Independence. Please don’t come back with a reference to your "friends" web site where you can proclaim any numbers as true.
I don’t even want to comment on your other lie about the number of people killed in J&K. For me loss of Human life is the same irrespective of religion. The only thing true in your post is the absymal condition of minorities in pakistan....god help them.
 
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Watch out

America is also going to be affected with this muslim virus. Seen 9/11 and will see more unless US stops Muslims from entering this country. Most of the muslims in India are just population genarators. They don't have allegiance to their country of birth but just to their religion.
Most of muslims are fantics and they produce hundrededs children but wont feed then and want the govt to feed them or let them into underworld.

Coming Mother Theresa. She was a big liar. She goes after every freaking poor person and tries to convert them rather than just doing service as she claim. She has this big PR dept doing all the good things on paper and trying to convert of the illiterate people of the world into christians.

She used to get all the money for the churches and foreign missionaries and spend it on conversions. Can't believe any country would tolerate the conversions.
 
ENOUGH OF DMA_VA BASHING.....

I think it has been enough of dma_va bashing.....

Did you guys notice that RSS was one of the first to respond to Rajdhani express derailment other than any Governement Organization. They did not ask people about there religion before rescuing them. So the bottomline is you can not bash RSS like that, there are definitely some good things they do.

I think most of the responders here are pseudo secular, in order to get some pat they will bash there own religion. I am not saying you shouldn't repsect other religion. You should but not at cost of bashing your religion.
 
Janta/PriyaGC/Jquake.

I agree with u all except for 30% Muslim figure by Jquake. Actually Hindu's in India are roughly 82%.

Deeds of RSS are highly appreciative. The problem is Yellow Journalism of India wherein nobody talks about their unstinted efforts for upliftment of people. They talk about RSS only when there are riots or any national Movement like creation of Ram Mandir etc.

PriyaGC, I was afraid to say anything about Mother Teresa herself for the fear that some people consider her so highly that they will be hurt no end to learn about the mis-deeds of her org. I did mention earlier that she might be too frail and not in a position to control on-going bad practices in her "org", but it's a fact that most of the money was being channelized for wrongful purposes there. We still see Calcultta as a city with max. no. of destitutes in any metroplolis of India.

Jquake, What, Hindus in Pakistan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! U must be kidding. Where r there any if at all. Life of poor Muslims itself is like hell in Pak. Forget about Hindus. they won't come under any counting. Pak is no India where despite of centuries of oppression by Moghul invaders, Muslims are still in all spheres of life (be it cricket or President(s) of India).
 
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Irrespective

Irrespective of who the Culprits are, they should be Apprehended and Brought to Justice, for this Cowardly and Dastardly act.
 
dma_va

Hi dma_va,

I was very impressed with your posts in other threads. I wish i had same writing skills as yours. I'm very disappointed with your postings and views in this thread. Do not attach conversion thing and communal violence to the same string. You know what i have seen many great people who studied and came up from Christian schools as Hindus. I come from a village and i know how the people are benefited from the charity from missionaries and their education. Do you know i never saw any RSS or any Hindu organisation doing the same job like Missionaries in my place. And have seen Hindu people just come to church on their own by thinking god helped them and they want to thank. You never see any RSS or any other Orgs doing good services in Villages. I only saw these guys in Towns and cities. I agree with you that they teach some good culture, but at the same time they do not teach how to treat people from other relegion. They teach some extreme views but these views are not harmful. Anyway i completely disagree with you regarding the conversion. I have seen in my life, how these missionaries operate. How many good schools and colleges do u see in Hyderabad, Madras or Banglore that are run by Hindus. I have studied in Hindu, Muslim and Christian schools and colleges. I have seen only muslim college stresses more religion things than anyother.
Apart from community services, do u know who coached Azaruddin and Rahul Dravid. Do u know where thay have studied.

Do u know most of the missionaries, they do not have families. They just sacrifice life and just do the community service. You know howmmany nuns and Fathers sacrificed their lives to serve and educate people.

I do not know how RSS works , but i never seen they are that selfless. I did not see sacrifices like Missionaries. Do u think RSS helps lepracy people. Do you think RSS people destitutes like Mother therasa. Do you know how populated Calcutta is. You need Billions of Dollars and decades to clean Calcutta.

I can argue personally with you but i'm not a good writer...

Any way i had to go now ..seee u later...

I know the feelings of Hindus. But our India is mix of people not single religion.

Again no one talks about J&K killings of Hindus. It is very shameful thing. I have seen my good Hindus supporting non-violence and realizing the how hard it is killing people. I wish our Muslim friends realize and commend the activities of the fanatic people.
 
Ajay12345,

I'd have dared not try to couple conversion with violence. But let me ask u something.

Why is that u don't hear much about conversions in Pak (it is not richer than India if not poor)?

How come half or more of Africa is Christian and what have these countries people gained by becoming so. Is there any prosperous African nation (besides SA due to white rule and diamond/gold mines and Egypt due to Oil)?

But u don't hear about conversions in Egypt (of Africa) or Saudi Arabian countries, do u?

Why is Philipines becoming more Christians at such a fast pace and not Korea or Japan?

Bangalore/Hyderabad having missionaries......... But these r rich or let's say progressive places because of missionarie, I don't think so? In such places, where pure and direct conversion won't help, school teaching (beginning at primary level would do the job), if u know what I mean.


U haven't replied to what I said about Mizo and NE states and their plight despite conversions.


Please think along the deep rooted lines as to what is the purpose behind conversions. Is it just poverty or something else. U'd realize that deep down it has something to do with ur religion.

And mind u a poor/illiterate person is the most vulnerable target for that. U know for fact also, that population breeding mostly happens where the poverty is (more the numbers, more succesful the conversion). Look Bihar, UP, NE, MP etc. If u know what I am trying to imply here.
 
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Ok.. to be honest with you. I do not know whats happening in NE. But practically i have seen the effect of the services from these guys. Thats why i'm talking about. I have seen the inside of these guys lives nuns and fatthers etc. As i said i came from village and i have seen practically how people are benefited. And also i have studies in Major cities and seen what RSS does and what they dont.
Yes conversion is very bad and really hate it. But i dont mind as long as it does not teach violence. The bottom line is better life, better education and peace and harmony. They have achieved this in my village. thats why i'm talking about it. Interesting thing is that those guys never asked people to convert into christian religion.

Again i completely discourage the conversions. But what i dont buy is RSS and missionaries link. Missionaries are well above and beyond compared to RSS in serving people.

Why RSS does not do same things services like missionaries.. reach out poor people in rural areas?. Not just sitting in towns and cities or even in America and enjoying every bit of life.

So what i want is appreciate the people who sacrifice lives.
 
Ajay,

I am glad that ur village had good experience. Kudos to missionaries for their job.

But to say that RSS is sitting in cities and speaking is grossly incorrect. RSS is very well into social upliftment. Leaders like Hegdewar, Lohi, Narayan, Advani etc. r their gifts to us. RSS is one selfless org. that I have known as a pure outsider, to having been doing so many good social acts unspoken.

As for missionaries, let's not loose sight of larger picture. My basic question to u still holds about why "missionary work" only in poor states of India, majority Africa, South AMerica etc., why not Pak, Arabia or say East Europe. South America is alreay christian. To be truthful, prosperity has taken leave from the countries/states/regions with the problems that we have been discussing (conversion). Why is that so? Why has Calcutta not led by an example of riches thru what is has been "bestowed" with.
 
Ok my question to you is what would have been if missionary did not come to Caclutta and Kerala...compare current situation with tmissionary not come to the poor places in India.

My friend i completely disagree with you prosperity leave. I will day prosperity is there since the missionary came. Their job is not to invade a region like the moguls. You will say britishers invaded, but they are not missionaries.

Imagine if the schools and the hospitals and the service disappeared from the scene. Where would people be. Do you think prosperity comes if people take a brick and carry to places and create riots. Sorry my friend.

Africa, S America whatever it may be, it would have had even worse effects without missionaries. Missionaries cant 100% remove the poorness. They can only help certain extent.

Regarding Arabia and Pakistan..may be the missionaries might have feared to death to serve people there. May be the fundamentalists did not allow these guys to go there.

These missinaries serve people in poorer states which allows them to do their job. If India did not allow them in the first place there would have been no conversion et all..

And again can you enlighten me the logic behind the leave of prosperity with conversions. Can you give me a real life example so that i can better understand your argument. I'm interested to know negative influence of these guys in a society. And also i'm interested to know how Advani helped poor people to get education and prosperity or how he uplift poor people. Dont say he is behind Ram Mandir. I think he better leave his dep PM post to serve poor people. Does he have family or he sacrificed family life for poor people?.

Probably this may be my last post... My client is paying $N00/hr for the work i do not posting these messages...


OK see yaaa..

Anyway my friend i like your writing skills....i'm big fan of your posts..
 
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