Philosophical Question. Do I even want US Citizenship?

D

diavon

Registered Users (C)
I came to US in 1995 from India. From the first day I landed here, I knew that one day I would become a US Citizen. Consqeuently, after living in the country for 13 years, I recently applied for US Citizenship.

I wouldnt say that I am having second thoughts, but I cant help but think about whether or not I really need this.

1) I am a citizen of India. That is really not a big deal. If I am kidnapped in a foreign country, my government will never come to look for me. If I am arrested on false charges in Saudi Arabia, my government will not do everything in it's power to secure my release. Hate it or love it, that is India. There are way too many people for the government to care about one singular person. In that respect I suppose being an American is better. We always hear about Jesse Jackson flying to random corners of the world to secure the release of American people. But you have to wonder, if the American government would be just as gungho about securing the release of a brown man as opposed to a white man.

2) Respect in the other countries - I lived in the middle east before I came to the US. During those days, being a US/UK Citizen was like being God. You got treated differently. I am not sure how things are now. But I suspect they hate Americans now. Furthermore, as the economic status of India has come of age, I suspect that they will look at Indians as more than just menial laborers. I have American friends who travel abroad quite a bit. They always identify themselves as Canadian.

3) Ability to travel. This is a biggie. A US passport opens doors worldwide. An India passport might get you into Banglasesh without a visa but I dont have any need to visit Bangladesh. Being an American would also allow one to work in other countries easily. I wouldnt might working in Singapore or Dubai for a while. I do wonder what the income tax consqueneces are of that. If I work in Singapore, do I still have to pay taxes to support the drugged out single mom in Philadelphia and Bush's illegal war in Iraq? I dont want to.

4) Future opportunities - America was once the land of milk and honey. But is it now and will it be in the future? A lot of older generation Indians I know stayed in America because they figured that (1) their career prospects were better here and (2) education opportunities for children were better here. But is that still true? With India's growth, could one have just as satisfying a career there? I know India still has a long way to go. Corruption and infrastructure remain huge issues. But has the mindset changed to where one can have a nice hasslefree life and a nice career there. Education in America is very expensive. And unless your kids go to the best schools, it isnt that great. Is this still a good reason to be in the US? Could my kids get just as good an education in an Indian college or perhaps in Australia or UK?

5) And then ofcourse there are the standard issues that go with being an immigrant. I will always be that brown guy that talks funny. A white woman will generally not want to be my girlfriend or wife. Blacks will always view me as taking their jobs. In sum, always a second class citizen.

Perhaps I am jaded. Perhaps I dont realise that India isnt all that the media claims it now is. Perhaps I dont realise that there are probably a billion people in the world that would trade places with me in a heartbeat. I dont know. But I am sure some of you have these questions too. What are your thoughts?
 
Camp12

You and I are on an almost identical schedule thus far. My fingerprinting is scheduled for the 24th in Manhattan. Are you planning on doing an earlier walk in?
 
I thought about this as well. I came to this Country in 1987. Been here for going on 21years. My country is awesome. Education is superior to US Education. I did not want to give up MY country of birth.. I did NOT want to desert them. But after 10 years of thinking about it.. I realized that no matter how awful America is or might be in the future.. I love it.. Its the only real home I ever knew and I was and always will be ready to stand up and fight for this Country No matter who we Have in Office. So that in it self made me see that I am already an American... I just need the paper to prove it.

Just wanted to share my patriotism.... I LOVE THE USA!!!!!!
 
Do your math

Why don’t you do your math and see where you think your future is.

All immigrants first generation that migrates from their country has same question in their head that where do they belong. Specifically south Asian people have this problem because they have very close relation with their family and they can not make the decision. No matter if you become US citizen you will always feel that you are not part of the community because of skin color and this is the fact you can not change it. Now when tables are turned India is emerging as potential to grown and in the world every one is trying to think is staying in US is worth it? What benefits that you will get and what you will loose? What options that you will have in future ?

Personal opinion I have done my math and I will go with US citizenship.

Why this country has given me a lot I follow religion belief that this is my karmabhumi as said in geeta. I have gained lots of things from this country opportunity, wealth, security of my family.

I miss my country a lot and I will always have affection to my home country. You have an option of going back or continue living here it depends on personal situations. Even if you are deported for any reason India will accept you back but not US. You have your own identity in India what is your identity in US? An immigrant who came from India nothing more then that. Do you have culture in US? Yeah may be 20% if your kids decided to follow your own religion and get married to Indian girl what about your grand kids? Will they have same affection that you have absolutely not? Because they were not born in India.

So please join the club of ABCD and see where your life takes you.
 
diavon said:
Camp12

You and I are on an almost identical schedule thus far. My fingerprinting is scheduled for the 24th in Manhattan. Are you planning on doing an earlier walk in?
Click to expand...

i'm just going to keep my current date- i don't think going in earlier (esp. since it's only a few days away) is going to do much to my application in terms of speeding it up!

the other thing is my application/history isn't 100% squeaky clean- i have an 'infraction' for a noise voilation from college- not that it's anything (imo) to be worried about, but i did included it (along with court papers) and wrote a letter explaining that i was guilty of it but didn't have to go to court, and that the court dismissed it before the court date...(not sure why)

here's hoping for a quick process though *cheers*
 
The way I look at it, nobody can take the "Indianess" away from me, no matter which country I choose to become a citizen of. Its something that is born with like the skin color.
So, materialistically speaking, getting the citizenship provides lots of features/options to us. Didn't we all come to US just for that reason - at least at that time the higher education or job was the only area in which we focussed?
 
This statement is completely hypothetical, but isn't it at least somewhat worrisome, getting citizenship in a country that can't even get its naturalization process together?
 
RE: Friends from Bangladesh.-

I have a many friends from Bangladesh and India, and some of them are proud US citizens, their kids are americans, go to catolic school, and their kids have already a different mentality and different life outlook. You guys are the transition block, in other words, the first generation, the second generation will know and respect the traditions but don't expect it from the third.

The third generation, 30 years later, will have no memory whatsoever attached to their grandfather country of origin. I can say that because of my grandfather and great-grandfather. It is just a fact of life.
 
rick92 said:
I have a many friends from Bangladesh and India, and some of them are proud US citizens, their kids are americans, go to catolic school, and their kids have already a different mentality and different life outlook. You guys are the transition block, in other words, the first generation, the second generation will know and respect the traditions but don't expect it from the third.

The third generation, 30 years later, will have no memory whatsoever attached to their grandfather country of origin. I can say that because of my grandfather and great-grandfather. It is just a fact of life.
Click to expand...

I was 11 years old when my parents relocated to the U.S. 18 years later, I have absolutely no attachments to my former country or its customs.
 
Vorpal said:
This statement is completely hypothetical, but isn't it at least somewhat worrisome, getting citizenship in a country that can't even get its naturalization process together?
Click to expand...

Good point and I agree, process might be broken Vorpal but there are many countries where there is not even an option to apply for Citizenship or its too selective and restrictive.
 
koolvik7 said:
Good point and I agree, process might be broken Vorpal but there are many countries where there is not even an option to apply for Citizenship or its too selective and restrictive.
Click to expand...

True. Sometimes, I question the validity of a citizenship conferred through such an ass-backwards process by an even more ass-backwards agency.
 
diavon said:
IPerhaps I am jaded. Perhaps I dont realise that India isnt all that the media claims it now is. Perhaps I dont realise that there are probably a billion people in the world that would trade places with me in a heartbeat. I dont know. But I am sure some of you have these questions too. What are your thoughts?
Click to expand...
Well, I think to start out with, you don't really "need" citizenship, since you already have many (but not all) of the rights of citizenship. Many people, by choice, can and do live here as PRs only, and they have most of the basic rights and protections that citizens have. I think the bigger issue for you, and all of us, is whether we want citizenship. There are really two broad reasons for this, in my opinion, and I break them down as follows: the philisophical and the practical.

The philisophical reasons have to do with your own feeling of acceptance in your adopted nation, and the degree to which you feel comfortable in severing ties to your former country. In some cases, this severing is more ceremonial than anything else since many countries do allow for dual citizenship. For many people, it is difficult to sever these ties because they still have strong family ties to their old country. If you immigrated here with your parents and siblings, or came at a young age, you will likely feel less of a bond to your old country. However, if you came here as an adult, and have little in the way of family members here, you may be reluctant to cut the cord, even ceremonially. For many of us, receiving US citizenship is similar to what Cortez did when he arrived in the new world: he burned the boats so that there would be no going back.

Philisophically, when you receive US citizenship, it means you have accepted the country and the country has accepted you. Many people are uncomfortable with the idea of being "junior members" of the club, and their desire to blend in is what causes them to seek citizenship. While I agree that you, as an Indian national, probably do not look or sound like somebody of anglo-saxon descent, I think that you sell yourelf short if you think of yourself as the "brown guy who talks funny", rather than as a US citizen-in-waiting. Sure, there are racist ignorant people here, just as there are in every country, but for the most part the people you really want as your friends and co-workers will like and respect you for who you are. Don't spend too much time worrying about the others - there will always be people who don't like you, regardless of what country you are in.

In terms of practical reasons, you hit on most of them in your original post: ability to travel, some degree of protection, automatic right of re-entry etc. These are easily taken for granted by natural born citizens, but they are definitely nothing to sneeze at. Just don't expect too much help from the government if you need assistance, either here or abroad - remember all those poor people in New Orleans after Katrina hit. All governments have limited resources to deal with their citizens, and this one is no exception, Jesse Jackson notwithstanding. In terms of working in other countries, it really depends on which country and whether they have a tax treaty with the US. A good accountant would be able to answer your question.

I do believe that there are still a lot of opportunities in the US, and that there will be in the future as well. This is a very dynamic, vibrant economy with lots of opportunities for people who want to work hard. Of course, like all capitalistic economies, it goes through hard times but things will eventually improve. Americans are extremely optimistic people, and by 2009 there will be a new President and a sense that the future is brighter. But you are absolutely right in that there are probably many opportunities now in India that did not exist 10 or 15 years ago, as it is an emerging economic superpower.

In summary, I feel that the United States is a very good country, although it is not a perfect country (and what country is?) There are easily fixable problems here (the USCIS is a good example of one!) that languish for years because politicians lack the political fortitude to tackle them...but that's democracy - you are stuck with the decisions and systems that the majority of the people are willing to support. There are many reasons to become a citizen, but ultimately it is a very unique and personal decision. I liken it in some ways to deciding on a marriage partner, and this is a decision that only you can make. I know for me it is the right choice, and I wish you all the best of luck in determining what is best for you and your family.
 
If you are not sure how the USA is a beautiful place to live in just visit Saudi Arabia. I am sure you will be thankful that you have had the chance to be here. Although KSA has the “oil” money but they have the ultimate injustice in the world. One visit to such bad places will make you LOVE the USA.
 
i have my humble opinion about US future potential -

so many active, brave, thinking, adapting, non-conservative people moved here to start a new life in unknown land, attracted by "milk and honey" period and still are coming everyday, despite fact that every year it's getting harder to get visa or asylum or citizenship

i think that so many "natural survivors" in one place- just wont let the country to go down so easily.
 
diavon said:
I came to US in 1995 from India. From the first day I landed here, I knew that one day I would become a US Citizen. Consqeuently, after living in the country for 13 years, I recently applied for US Citizenship.

I wouldnt say that I am having second thoughts, but I cant help but think about whether or not I really need this.

1) I am a citizen of India. That is really not a big deal. If I am kidnapped in a foreign country, my government will never come to look for me. If I am arrested on false charges in Saudi Arabia, my government will not do everything in it's power to secure my release. Hate it or love it, that is India. There are way too many people for the government to care about one singular person. In that respect I suppose being an American is better. We always hear about Jesse Jackson flying to random corners of the world to secure the release of American people. But you have to wonder, if the American government would be just as gungho about securing the release of a brown man as opposed to a white man.

2) Respect in the other countries - I lived in the middle east before I came to the US. During those days, being a US/UK Citizen was like being God. You got treated differently. I am not sure how things are now. But I suspect they hate Americans now. Furthermore, as the economic status of India has come of age, I suspect that they will look at Indians as more than just menial laborers. I have American friends who travel abroad quite a bit. They always identify themselves as Canadian.

3) Ability to travel. This is a biggie. A US passport opens doors worldwide. An India passport might get you into Banglasesh without a visa but I dont have any need to visit Bangladesh. Being an American would also allow one to work in other countries easily. I wouldnt might working in Singapore or Dubai for a while. I do wonder what the income tax consqueneces are of that. If I work in Singapore, do I still have to pay taxes to support the drugged out single mom in Philadelphia and Bush's illegal war in Iraq? I dont want to.

4) Future opportunities - America was once the land of milk and honey. But is it now and will it be in the future? A lot of older generation Indians I know stayed in America because they figured that (1) their career prospects were better here and (2) education opportunities for children were better here. But is that still true? With India's growth, could one have just as satisfying a career there? I know India still has a long way to go. Corruption and infrastructure remain huge issues. But has the mindset changed to where one can have a nice hasslefree life and a nice career there. Education in America is very expensive. And unless your kids go to the best schools, it isnt that great. Is this still a good reason to be in the US? Could my kids get just as good an education in an Indian college or perhaps in Australia or UK?

5) And then ofcourse there are the standard issues that go with being an immigrant. I will always be that brown guy that talks funny. A white woman will generally not want to be my girlfriend or wife. Blacks will always view me as taking their jobs. In sum, always a second class citizen.

Perhaps I am jaded. Perhaps I dont realise that India isnt all that the media claims it now is. Perhaps I dont realise that there are probably a billion people in the world that would trade places with me in a heartbeat. I dont know. But I am sure some of you have these questions too. What are your thoughts?
Click to expand...

Glad to see this oft-discussed topic in action once again :)

1) Probably true.

2) You are right. Americans, or most whites for that matter, have always got preferential treatment in the Middle East owing to skin color and financial clout. Like it or not, that's a fact. These days, it may not be as safe for Americans/British compared to others. That's why your friends identify themselves as Canadian. Many people do that. However, most immigrants lack Caucasian features and most certainly lack the American accent, so simply being an American citizen on paper is not dangerous for such people, unless one flaunts their US passport or is otherwise ostentatious.

3) No, your Indian passport won't let you into Bangladesh visa-free. I am told Nepal is the only one that would let you in visa-free. But like you said, you don't have a need to go to Bangladesh, so it's a moot point in your case.

As for who you pay taxes to, every country does controversial things! If you say the US has drug addicts and does illegal wars, then other countries have officially sanctioned religious or other discrimination. You would be paying taxes to such countries, if not to the US! 1) I have seen so many Indians living merrily in Saudi Arabia under their outright religious discrimination, but not complaining at all. But they seem to hate the US a lot! 2) Look at China: they forcibly occupied a whole nation - Tibet. That's far worse than the Iraq war, even though the Iraq war is fresher in our minds.
In all fairness, it is clear that the US is being held to a different standard.

4) At the primary and highschool levels, and MAYBE at college level, I would think some countries have better education compared to the US.

BUT once you enter graduate school, US education has to be the best _overall_. If one is into hardcore research (in virtually any field), US wins hands down. Sure, other countries have good schools, but we are talking about the very, very best. And that's right here in the US. It could change, but it's not going to happen in the foreseeable future. Case in point: Japan has been very prosperous for many years now, and no doubt has excellent schools and labs. But not much seems to get invented or discovered there (or anywhere else for that matter).

5) Probably true.


In the end, it's a very personal question with no black and white answer from a technical point. One should do whatever is best for them and their family. In a truly global spirit, people should be able to drift all over and keep migrating as long as they do it legally.

From a moral perspective, does it seem right? First, coming to a country, reaping the benefits, getting it's passport, and then deciding to leave it. If anyone feels that this country is going down the tube, then that's all the more reason to stay here and pull it back up. But that's where a particular type of human instinct seems to kick in the minds of most immigrants: You live only once. Why not make the most of it and go to greener pastures for self and family. Why sacrifice anything for the good of the US? You get the idea.
I am not singling anyone out, so please don't take it that way.

As I said, this is a very personal decision with no clear cut answer. One thing is sure: this sort of reverse migration was bound to happen at some point. If an immigrant can leave their country of birth, where they stayed for the first 20+ years of their life, where most of their family and memories are, it is reasonable to assume that they will also leave their adopted lands if they feel like doing so. As I pointed out in an earlier post, modern-day travel and communications play a very big role in all of this type of thing.

In any case, the US is truly a very, very great country, with a worldwide influence that has never, ever been seen before in the history of the world.

OY
 
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