options for people who ALREADY quit their sponserer "sooner"
- Thread starter TheEnquirer
- Start date
Challenge To Joef
http://archive.flcdatacenter.com/casesearch.asp for any employer of your choice(I won't take names) in your state of california for H-1 b wages. They pay around 65-70K(very few above 80K). Now look at the average wages in San Jose County california, for systems software engineers for which many of these people are hired:
Area Code: 7400
Area Title: San Jose, CA PMSA
OES/SOC Code: 15-1032
OES/SOC Title: Computer software engineers, systems software
Level 1 Wage: $34.04 hour - $70,803 year
Level 2 Wage: $40.96 hour - $85,197 year
Level 3 Wage: $47.88 hour - $99,590 year
Level 4 Wage: $54.80 hour - $113,984 year
GeoLevel: 1
-- Shows you clearly that they are paying level 1 wage prevalent in that area, ie. BS degree with no exp. Now look at the employees they sponsor H-1 for -- they need a minumum of MS degree with a couple years exp. or an internship. Figure out for yourself which wage level they should be paying.
JOEF, check out the website atJoeF said:
http://archive.flcdatacenter.com/casesearch.asp for any employer of your choice(I won't take names) in your state of california for H-1 b wages. They pay around 65-70K(very few above 80K). Now look at the average wages in San Jose County california, for systems software engineers for which many of these people are hired:
Area Code: 7400
Area Title: San Jose, CA PMSA
OES/SOC Code: 15-1032
OES/SOC Title: Computer software engineers, systems software
Level 1 Wage: $34.04 hour - $70,803 year
Level 2 Wage: $40.96 hour - $85,197 year
Level 3 Wage: $47.88 hour - $99,590 year
Level 4 Wage: $54.80 hour - $113,984 year
GeoLevel: 1
-- Shows you clearly that they are paying level 1 wage prevalent in that area, ie. BS degree with no exp. Now look at the employees they sponsor H-1 for -- they need a minumum of MS degree with a couple years exp. or an internship. Figure out for yourself which wage level they should be paying.
hipka said:
Yeah you are one of those who want to have the cake and eat it too. Well doesn't everybody want that, but you seem to trying to give a valid explanation for that.
Let me address the issue of promotions in a company. From your talk it is sure that you are either pissed with some things happening with you or somene very close in your company. Every company is there to make profit, and every manager gets incentive from the people above him if he keeps people under him without promoting. Believe me no company is happy in giving promotions to anyone unless they are forced to by any of the following factors/situation. I am also listing how far you can climb the ladder in ech situation.
-- The employee is very good technically and there is a danger that he will leave unless promoted. This is good for anyone be it 10years, 5 years or only 1 year experience people. This kind of a employee will get promoted as long as he is better than others in the group. He wont go much higher though.
-- The Company has done extremely well in the year and they want to keep the momentum going and would like to keep the employees who made it happen. This kind of employee will also not climb much, maybe a few steps.
-- When they want to convert a contractor to an employee who the company thinks they cannot afford to loose. This man could be given a better position than the person who is already an employee with the same experience. It all depends how good a negotiator the employee is in getting the right package. Here a lot of things matter, such of H1, EAD and GC. But I have seen a person who can negotiate well and who does not care much about the GC stuff can anytime negotiate a good salary. Mind you,if there are two persons with exactly same experience one with H1 and one with GC then its possible that the H1 person may end up with a better package than the GC person. It all how you play the employer.
This kind has a good probably of steadily climbing given he keep his negotiating ability.
-- If the employee is a relative of someone in the higher management.
This employee can reach the top of the company in a very short period.
-- A good A*&* Licker, who can shine the upper management balls in a very good way.
This employee will also start climbing fast but will get stuck if he encounters a manager who does not like all this stuff and who can see through all the licking, so its risky.
-- If the employee has some special talents (provide sexual favours to people who matter).
for this employee sky is the limit, only limited by the favourable sexual orientation of the person above him.
-- Lastly if you have some pictures of someone top in the management in some compromising situation.
This is very risky but if the employee can play the game properly then his climb is only limited to the level of the person of whose pictures he is carrying.
Believe me they will not just offer you more money because you have a GC. If you have a GC and are still scared about negotiating then you will get a bad deal. At the same time GC helps build confidence in you. Just that nothing else.
neocor
Thats not true, the recission ended in 2002. Why is there not an increase in wages in 2003? Also check out the salary of an engineer (software for comparision) of any reputed tech company you know( we are not even talking about startups and small companies here ). They hire only the best engineers from top univ's like stanford, caltech etc. so ideally they should be making around 113,984 a year, worst case $100K a year. What's was the average pay for engineers during 2000-2003 --> between 45K - 70K !(check out that website, anything above 80K was only for managers/project leads).JoeF said:
Why is there such a huge gap in the salary? almost 40K? Does lack of negotiating skills make such a big difference? Are engineers coming out of top univ's. bad negotiators ? Did the recession reduce wages by upto 40K ? Now you know that GC makes a difference!
MY SOURCE IS THE DOL WEBSITE.
Area Code: 7400
Area Title: San Jose, CA PMSA
OES/SOC Code: 15-1032
OES/SOC Title: Computer software engineers, systems software
Level 1 Wage: $34.04 hour - $70,803 year
Level 2 Wage: $40.96 hour - $85,197 year
Level 3 Wage: $47.88 hour - $99,590 year
Level 4 Wage: $54.80 hour - $113,984 year
GeoLevel: 1
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Heres the linkJoeF said:
http://archive.flcdatacenter.com (run a search with a company of your choice)
What! my source is the DOL website, if thats wrong then whats right?? I didn't say only, I said mostly. Heres a sample search from a reputed software company in california starting from oct. 2003
Name","Nbr_Immigrants","Job_Title","DOL_DECISION_DATE","Certified_Begin_Date","Certified_End_Date","Approval_Status","Wage_Rate_1","Rate_Per_1","Prevailing_Wage_1","Wage_Source_1"
"XXX Inc ","001","Member of Technical Staff (Hardware) ","4/14/2003","10/01/2003","10/01/2006","Certified ","69556.03000 ","Year ","73216.87000 ","Other "
"XXX Inc ","001","Member of Technical Staff (Software) ","4/18/2003","08/02/2003","03/09/2005","Certified ","71030.00000 ","Year ","73885.89000 ","Other "
"XXX Inc ","001","Member of Technical Staff (Hardware) ","4/15/2003","10/01/2003","10/01/2006","Certified ","67220.00000 ","Year ","66902.01000 ","Other "
"XXX, Inc. ","001","Member of Technical Staff (Software) ","4/18/2003","10/08/2003","03/30/2006","Certified ","71030.00000 ","Year ","73886.00000 ","Other "
"XXX Inc ","001","Member of Technical Staff (Hardware) ","4/17/2003","09/30/2003","09/30/2006","Certified ","71030.00000 ","Year ","73216.87000 ","Other "
"XXX Inc ","001","Member of Technical Staff (Hardware) ","4/15/2003","10/01/2003","02/27/2004","Certified ","85950.00000 ","Year ","89609.88000 ","Other "
"XXX Inc ","001","Member of Technical
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hipka said:
Not always true. Even IT companies favor long time employees. It's only in late 90s, when IT job market was damn good and demand was high, people used to get better deal by switching companies (and as a result they used to keep switching for better and better deals). But in "traditional" job market, faithful employees are always valued - whether it's late 80s, early 90s or now.
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hipka said:
Because it takes time to become a CEO. High volume of Indians in hi-tech industry is very recent incident - mostly migrated in late 90s. Most of them don't have more than 15 years of experience in same industry. Think about today's CEO Bill Gates or Steve Jobs. They started their career in late 70s. Obviously there were Indian working in hi-tech industry in late 70 or early 80s. But in that time, the number of Indians were so low that probability of becoming today's CEO is pretty low too. Keep in mind, only 1 in several millions becomes a CEO of a Fortune 500 company. So you understand the probability of it even among Americans. What's the probabbility of becoming a Larry Page among all Americans? But still given this fact, the achievement of Indian in hi-tech industry or Fortune 500 companies are not all that bad. Check management level people all the Fortune 500 companies. You will find many Indian (or Asians).
JoeF said:
The wage I quoted was from the DOL website, search for foreign labor certification. By the way companies always quote prevailing wage from 'other' sources. (check out my data). Why do they use these 'other' sources when a layman like me can easily obtain wage info from the DOL website? Pretty obviously they want to get away by paying less. So you are saying that 2003 data is useless because 2005 salaries have increased dramatically? Did the salaries really increase by 40K ? Tell me if thats true then I'll move over to california, cause in MI salaries have pretty much stagnated.
Indians working in the hi-tech industry in 70's -80's were top grade,mostly from premier institutes. If they were not able to make it to the top, the present generation has little or no chance because most of them are just about average engineers. The ratio of management level is also pretty pathetic.pralay said:
dimag_mari
Registered Users (C)
Looks like somebody screwed up hipka pretty bad,
and he is vomiting his anger/frustation over here.
grow up man
and he is vomiting his anger/frustation over here.
grow up man
hipka said:
I will gain nothing by defending my argument. I only showed that there is a huge difference between what companies paid H-1B engineers in 2003 vs the prevailing wage in 2005.You can suggest any reason you want, comparing apples to oranges, recession, salary increase etc. but the fact is that this difference remains. DOL accepts surveys if they have followed a scientific procedure. They have neither the resources nor the will power to ensure that data collected by these surveys is accurate. It also appears that you are convinced H-1B employees are getting paid fairly. If that is your beleif you can live with it.JoeF said:
hipka said:
Good engineer (top grade or whatever) not necessarily makes top management person always. There is a difference. It's Steve Jobs or Bill Gates who became CEOs, not Wozniak or Paul Allen who were the real technical architects (and they are not Indians).
Secondly, I don't know which industry and which area of USA you are location, from my own experience I say that most of the big companies in SF bay area, a good number of managers are Indians. I have seen similar trend in LA area too. If you call 30, 40 or 50 percents as "pathetic", I am not sure what you want.
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Changing job before 6 months safe!
I consulted a Lawyer sometime back and he told that staying with sponsoring company for 6 months is thing for old days.
Now after AC21 it does not matter as long as you you are in similar field .
What is the opinion of other buddies, I want to change the Job ASAP. In fact I was planning to use AC21 but stuck as GC got approved after 1 offer was almost finalized.
I consulted a Lawyer sometime back and he told that staying with sponsoring company for 6 months is thing for old days.
Now after AC21 it does not matter as long as you you are in similar field .
What is the opinion of other buddies, I want to change the Job ASAP. In fact I was planning to use AC21 but stuck as GC got approved after 1 offer was almost finalized.
hipka said:
First of all I don't understand why you have so much obsession of this CEO issue. Becoming CEO is totally different ballgame from engineering. I hope you understand the difference after working in industry for number of years.
Secondly, I replied against your comment "the ratio of management level is also pretty pathetic". Now you narrowing it down from "management level" to "CEO" to justify your point.
As I said earlier, I would not expect engineers, who just landed in this country only 15 or 10 years back, to become CEO. Yes, you are right - most of the engineer immigranted to USA in last 20 years are "average engineers". Probably many of them don't have instincts to become CEO (or infact top managment people). Some of them are just happy to raise kids, become a homeowner and a have a mini-van.
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hipka said:
To be frank, hipka, you are the only second Indian in last 8 years I saw with same thought-line, even though I meet with many Indians everyday (and many of them are living happily here for more than 10 years). So my assumption is that meeting a person like you is as rare as meeting an Indian CEO.
LSI Logic has an Indian CEO. Computer Associates *had* an Indian CEO. I am not sure how many others have but you are missing one of the biggest point and that is, being a CEO takes your life away and I am sure, most of the Indians or for that matter, anyone would like to make a CEO salary but most of them don't have the desire or the will as it takes away the fine qualities of a family life. You become mechanical and have to constantly think about the job 24x7.hipka said:
FWIW, my wife already complains that I am working a lot even though I am spending barely 8 - 9 hours at the job. To each his own.
You can even build an analogy with Female Presidents of USA. How many are there? None! Are they not smart enough?