Number of days outside the USA with approved N-470

sargodhian said:
Is this documented with USCIS?
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It's written in 8 CR 316.5(b)(5)(ii)

(ii) Return to the United States. If, upon returning to the United States, an applicant returns to the State or Service district where the applicant last resided, the applicant will have complied with the continuous residence requirement specified in §316.2(a)(5) when at least three months have elapsed, including any part of the applicant's absence, from the date on which the applicant first established that residence. If the applicant establishes residence in a State or Service district other than the one in which he or she last resided, the applicant must complete three months at that new residence to be eligible for naturalization.
 
Jackolantern said:
But he should be good to go sometime next month.
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I disagree. From the OP's timeline, he only has about 910 days in US since 5/21/2005 so he's clearly not eligible to apply.Even in a few weeks he won't be eligible due to the bulk of his time outside the US being towards the end of statutory period. This assumes that his N-470 does not cover physical presence.

Days in US:

05/21/2005------11/16/2006-------544
01/20/2007------05/13/2007-------113
05/26/2007------12/11/2007-------199
12/28/2007------01/04/2008-------7
05/14/2008------06/06/2008-------23
08/08/2008------08/22/2008-------14
03/09/2010------03/19/2010-------10
return to US for good ~5/21/2010
 
Bobsmyth said:
I disagree. From the OP's timeline, he only has about 910 days in US since 5/21/2005 so he's clearly not eligible to apply.
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Well, I was just basing my statement on the OP's corrected statement of having just 905 days outside the US after adjusting for that last trip in 2007. I didn't go back through all the dates to verify the 905 number myself. If the 905 is wrong, then whatever else is the right total is the thing to go by.
 
05/21/2005------11/16/2006-------544
01/20/2007------05/13/2007-------113
05/26/2007------12/11/2007-------199
12/28/2007------01/04/2008-------7
05/14/2008------06/06/2008-------23
08/08/2008------08/22/2008-------14
03/09/2010------03/19/2010-------10
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Bob, you're not properly counting the days inside the US for each stretch. If the start date is a day inside the US, and the end date is also a day inside the US, the number of days in the US for that stretch is End Date - Stat Date + 1. You were leaving out the +1. So the first stretch should be 545 days, then 114 days, then 200, etc.

Perhaps the OP should clarify by giving the actual departure date and return date for each trip, then we can apply the rule of counting partial days (i.e. the arrival and departure) to that raw information regarding what is counted as a day inside vs. outside the US.
 
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Jackolantern said:
Bob, your mistake is that you're not properly counting the days inside the US for each stretch.
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I was going by the info posted by the OP, so either he calculated it incorrectly or the dates are off. Either way, the dates are so close that the potential for USCIS to rule in favor of a denial for not meeting physical presence is high (ie 905 days outside US is more than 30days x30 months)
 
Bobsmyth said:
I was going by the info posted by the OP, so either he calculated it incorrectly or the dates are off. Either way, the dates are so close that the potential for USCIS to rule in favor of a denial for not meeting physical presence is high (ie 905 days outside US is more than 30days x30 months)
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Even if it's close and the IO denies the case over quibbles of what is 30 months, he'll easily win the appeal by showing he had more days inside the US during the statutory period than outside (if in fact he had more days inside than outside).

Sargodhian, can you post the actual departure and return dates for each trip?
 
Sorry Fellows,
I could not check the blog for about a week as I was travelling. Presently I am in the USA as of May 20, 2010. Please see below exact days outside and inside the USA (excluding partial day in and outside the USA):

Days in the USA

Became LPR on 02/28/2005
02/28/2005------11/16/2006-------626
01/20/2007------05/13/2007-------113
05/25/2007------12/11/2007-------200
12/27/2007------01/04/2008-------8
05/14/2008------06/06/2008-------23
08/08/2008------08/22/2008-------14
03/09/2010------03/19/2010-------10
05/20/2010------PRESENT

Total Number of days in the USA since becoming LPR: 994 + counting


Days outside the USA

11/16/2006------01/20/2007-------65
05/13/2007------05/25/2007-------12
12/11/2007------12/27/2007-------16---------With Approved N-470 & REP
01/04/2008------05/13/2008-------130--------With Approved N-470 & REP
06/06/2008------08/07/2008-------62---------With Approved N-470 & REP
08/22/2008------03/09/2010-------564--------With Approved N-470 & REP
03/19/2010------05/20/2010-------62----------With Approved N-470 & REP

Total Number of days outside the USA since becoming LPR: 911 excluding partial days

I am planing to apply next week around.

Thank you all and May God bless you
 
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Instead of "Days inside/days outside", could you list the departure date and arrival date of each trip so we can apply the rules for partial days to the raw information? Thanks.
 
Hi Jackolantern,
Thank you for your response. Here is the information you requested:

Departure Date Arrival Date
11/16/2006--------------01/20/2007
05/13/2007--------------05/25/2007
12/11/2007--------------12/27/2007
01/04/2008--------------05/13/2008
06/06/2008--------------08/07/2008
08/22/2008--------------03/09/2010
05/20/2010--------------PRESENT
 
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sargodhian said:
05/20/2010--------------PRESENT
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So you left the US on May 20, and are still outside the US? That conflicts with your previous posts which seem to indicate that you are in the US since May 20.

By "departure date" and "arrival date", I meant the day your flight (or car) left the US, and the day you arrived back in the US, not the day you arrived/departed the other country. Could you give a list of the dates when you left the US and the days you arrived in the US, so we can apply the applicable rules to figure out an accurate total of days inside/outside the US? Thanks.
 
Sorry for the confusion. These are the actual dates when I departed from and arrived into the US with only exception to last entry which was a mistake on my part. Here are the corrected dates again:

Departure Date from USA Arrival Date into USA
11/16/2006---------------------------------01/20/2007
05/13/2007---------------------------------05/25/2007
12/11/2007---------------------------------12/27/2007
01/04/2008---------------------------------05/13/2008
06/06/2008---------------------------------08/07/2008
08/22/2008---------------------------------03/09/2010
03/19/2010---------------------------------05/20/2010

Thanks!
 
OK, this is my calculation:

Departure Arrival Days outside the US
11/16/2006 01/20/2007 64
05/13/2007 05/25/2007 11
12/11/2007 12/27/2007 15
01/04/2008 05/13/2008 129
06/06/2008 08/07/2008 61
08/22/2008 03/09/2010 563
03/19/2010 05/20/2010 61
Total 904

Partial days in the US (namely the arrival and departure dates) are not to be counted as days outside the US. So in the spreadsheet, the number of days outside the US for each trip was calculated by Departure date - Arrival date - 1.

For the departure dates, I assume you know the date you actually left the US, and did not use the date you arrived in the other country based on passport arrival stamps, which could be a day or two after your US departure date due to the travel time and time zone. The system that USCIS would access has the dates you left the US, not the dates you arrived at your foreign destination. Because you are so close to the physical presence limit, it is important for the dates you list to match up with the dates in their system as precisely as possible, as it is very likely they will analyze your travel history in detail after the interview.

904 days outside the US is under the maximum 913, so go ahead and apply now! You don't need to accumulate any more days of physical presence.

If the IO tries to say that the 904 days outside the US is more than 30 months, you can fire back by pointing out that in the statutory period you have 922 days inside the US, which is more than 30 months.
 
Jackolantern said:
904 days outside the US is under the maximum 913, so go ahead and apply now! You don't need to accumulate any more days of physical presence.

If the IO tries to say that the 904 days outside the US is more than 30 months, you can fire back by pointing out that in the statutory period you have 922 days inside the US, which is more than 30 months.
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This is assuming that the IO will not calculate departure and arrival dates as time outside the US and that IO will not calculate 30 months as 900 days after the interview. With such a border line case, it raises the possibility of USCIS incorrectly denying the case by miscalculation, just like they do in miscalculating the 90 day grace period for early submissions.
 
Bobsmyth said:
This is assuming that the IO will not calculate departure and arrival dates as time outside the US and that IO will not calculate 30 months as 900 days after the interview. With such a border line case, it raises the possibility of USCIS incorrectly denying the case by miscalculation, just like they do in miscalculating the 90 day grace period for early submissions.
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Yes, but unlike the rejections for the 90-day issue, the OP has the opportunity to defend his position on the physical presence issue in the interview if it appears the IO is interpreting or calculating it adversely, so at least there is a chance of counteracting the mistaken interpretation.
 
Jackolantern said:
Yes, but unlike the rejections for the 90-day issue, the OP has the opportunity to defend his position on the physical presence issue in the interview if it appears the IO is interpreting or calculating it adversely, so at least there is a chance of counteracting the mistaken interpretation.
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How can the applicant defend themselves at the interview if the IO miscalculates the dates after the interview behind the scenes? For example, the IO gives the applicant "decision cannot be made" letter indicating that the dates must first be looked over. The IO then miscalculates the dates and sends out a denial letter.
 
Bobsmyth said:
How can the applicant defend themselves at the interview if the IO miscalculates the dates after the interview behind the scenes? For example, the IO gives the applicant "decision cannot be made" letter indicating that the dates must first be looked over. The IO then miscalculates the dates and sends out a denial letter.
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I think the OP should create a NEAT spreadsheet which will clarify the dates and the day counts ... and should be decipherable in one glance. If physical presence even comes up for a discussion, the OP should submit it.

I am debating whether OP should right away submitting it during interview OR wait till asked, and since the OP is so close at the margins - it might also make sense to confront the issue head-on.

Also make sure the dates entered are consistent between N400 and the spreadsheet.
And ... only after consultation with lawyer and maybe senior members here, attach the same spreadsheet with N400 which is yet to be sent.
 
a question on n470. on the uscis website this is what it says"Filing a Form N-470 does not relieve a permanent resident from obtaining a reentry permit, in advance of trips outside the United States for 1 year or more, nor does it relieve the applicant from the naturalization law's physical presence requirement." As Bob mentioned this n470 can be got for physical presence also but the website does not help with how to get this. i.e n470 offers continuos residence but no feature for physical presence. How does one request physical presence as part of n470?
 
Thank you all, I really appreciate your input and support.

I will file my application sometime next week and try my luck. Is it advisable to attach a letter from my employer for this long outside the USA stay?

My wife will be joining me sometime next month and I will then send her application in (she has about 700 days outside the USA with approved N-470 and REP). Does it make any difference if we file together or separate?
 
Bobsmyth said:
How can the applicant defend themselves at the interview if the IO miscalculates the dates after the interview behind the scenes?
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If it appears the IO is misinterpreting it in the interview, the defense in the interview has a chance (not a guarantee, of course) of preventing the IO from going off and doing it the wrong way in the first place, or of prompting the IO to have somebody else double-check the details before making a decision.
 
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