N470 and Applying for N400 from abroad ?

[pdjune2001]

Hi Experts,

I received my GC in May 2008 and hence become eligible for filing N400 in Feb 2013.

Meanwhile, I have a great potential offer to go on an assignment abroad for 2 years. I could push it out to begin in December 2012, but I may not be able to push it out further. I would like to continue my future residency and citizenship eligibility in the USA. I have reviewed the requirements for REP I131 and N470 and I believe I should be eligible to file for them. So, my questions are :

1. How long does the approval of REP take ? How many days does it take to get the FP notice ? I believe I can leave after FP and receive the REP in a US consulate abroad ?

2. I plan to apply for N470 while still in the US. How long does the approval of this take ? How long is the approval valid ? Can I leave before this is approved ? What happens if this is denied after I leave ? How many days do I have to return back to the USA ?

3. If both REP and N470 are approved, can I apply for N400 from abroad once I become eligible after Feb 2013 ?
I am worried that if I wait to apply after I come back in January 2015, I may have to reestablish physical presence.
Typically how many days are between N400 application, FP, Interview and Oath. I am in the upstate NY area.

4. I do not own a house and do not plan to continue to rent while I am out on a N470. I plan to maintain all other bank accounts, driving license etc. Is this a potential cause of problem even with an approved N470 ?

Do you all have any other advice / warnings for me ?

Thanks in advance.

 

[BigJoe5]

Hi Experts,

I received my GC in May 2008 and hence become eligible for filing N400 in Feb 2013.

Meanwhile, I have a great potential offer to go on an assignment abroad for 2 years. I could push it out to begin in December 2012, but I may not be able to push it out further. I would like to continue my future residency and citizenship eligibility in the USA. I have reviewed the requirements for REP I131 and N470 and I believe I should be eligible to file for them. So, my questions are :

1. How long does the approval of REP take ? How many days does it take to get the FP notice ? I believe I can leave after FP and receive the REP in a US consulate abroad ?

2. I plan to apply for N470 while still in the US. How long does the approval of this take ? How long is the approval valid ? Can I leave before this is approved ? What happens if this is denied after I leave ? How many days do I have to return back to the USA ?

3. If both REP and N470 are approved, can I apply for N400 from abroad once I become eligible after Feb 2013 ?
I am worried that if I wait to apply after I come back in January 2015, I may have to reestablish physical presence.
Typically how many days are between N400 application, FP, Interview and Oath. I am in the upstate NY area.

4. I do not own a house and do not plan to continue to rent while I am out on a N470. I plan to maintain all other bank accounts, driving license etc. Is this a potential cause of problem even with an approved N470 ?

Do you all have any other advice / warnings for me ?

Thanks in advance.

Just going to answer #3: No.

Please see: http://www.ilw.com/articles/2011,1129-Whalen.shtm
A Note to Employers and their Counsel on the Use of USCIS Form N-470

 

[pdjune2001]

Re :

Just going to answer #3: No.

Please see: http://www.ilw.com/articles/2011,1129-Whalen.shtm
A Note to Employers and their Counsel on the Use of USCIS Form N-470

Thanks BigJoe.

I read through the link.
I also read through the relevant sections of 316(b). I am not sure I read anywhere that one cannot file N400 while out on N470. If I satisfy physical presence and continuous presence ( by virtue of N470), I am not sure what legal ground prevents me from applying abroad as long as I can FP, interview and Oath in person.

I would appreciate responses for my other questions as well.

Thanks

 

[cafeconleche]

One thing that could preclude your application from abroad is the lack of a 90 day residence period in a certain district in the US. The N-470 preserves your eligibility for naturalization by counting time spent outside the country as time spent inside the country, but your residence is noted as being ABROAD, and not in a USCIS district. So, I would think you'd have to go back to the US, stay in one place for 90 days, and then apply.

 

[BigJoe5]

Thanks BigJoe.

I read through the link.
I also read through the relevant sections of 316(b). I am not sure I read anywhere that one cannot file N400 while out on N470. If I satisfy physical presence and continuous presence ( by virtue of N470), I am not sure what legal ground prevents me from applying abroad as long as I can FP, interview and Oath in person.

I would appreciate responses for my other questions as well.

Thanks

An N-470 preserves only a portion of the prerequisites for naturalization (hence the title of the form). INA 316(b) modifies an aspect of 316(a) [or 319(a)] but not all of it.

I am not going to go into great depths of legal analysis, if you want to waste your time, money, and effort, go ahead,

 

[pdjune2001]

Re

An N-470 preserves only a portion of the prerequisites for naturalization (hence the title of the form). INA 316(b) modifies an aspect of 316(a) [or 319(a)] but not all of it.

I am not going to go into great depths of legal analysis, if you want to waste your time, money, and effort, go ahead,

Thanks BigJoe5.

Can anyone else respond to my other questions as well please ?

Thanks.

 

[baikal3]

Thanks BigJoe5.

Can anyone else respond to my other questions as well please ?

Thanks.

As noted by cafeconleche, you can't satisfy the three months state/district residency requirement while residing abroad, and having an approved N-470 does not exempt you from satisfying that requirement. The term "residency" has a specific meaning in this context, as defined by 8 CFR 316.5(a), where residence "“is the same as that alien's domicile, or principal actual dwelling place, without regard to the alien's intent, and the duration of an alien's residence in a particular location is measured from the moment the alien first establishes residence in that location.”
http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/...1261/0-0-0-30960/0-0-0-31016.html#0-0-0-19633

If you are absent for less than a year and then resume residence in the same state from which you left and where you had previously established residence, you do not need to wait three months after returning. However, in any event you must resume residence (in the sense defined above) in the U.S. before you may submit N-400. Coming back for a short visit to mail in N-400 while you are actually residing abroad does not satisfy the definition of residence under 8 CFR 316.5(a).

Also, there is a related jurisdictional issue. An N-400 must be adjudicated by the DO responsible for the applicant's place of residence. While your place of residence is located abroad, there is no USCIS District Office that has jurisdiction to approve your N-400.

 

[pdjune2001]

Re :

As noted by cafeconleche, you can't satisfy the three months state/district residency requirement while residing abroad, and having an approved N-470 does not exempt you from satisfying that requirement. The term "residency" has a specific meaning in this context, as defined by 8 CFR 316.5(a), where residence "“is the same as that alien's domicile, or principal actual dwelling place, without regard to the alien's intent, and the duration of an alien's residence in a particular location is measured from the moment the alien first establishes residence in that location.”
http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/...1261/0-0-0-30960/0-0-0-31016.html#0-0-0-19633

If you are absent for less than a year and then resume residence in the same state from which you left and where you had previously established residence, you do not need to wait three months after returning. However, in any event you must resume residence (in the sense defined above) in the U.S. before you may submit N-400. Coming back for a short visit to mail in N-400 while you are actually residing abroad does not satisfy the definition of residence under 8 CFR 316.5(a).

Also, there is a related jurisdictional issue. An N-400 must be adjudicated by the DO responsible for the applicant's place of residence. While your place of residence is located abroad, there is no USCIS District Office that has jurisdiction to approve your N-400.

Thanks baikal3.

While searching this forum, I found reference to a case from HumHongeKamyaab who, it seems has obtained approval while filing from abroad in a similar scenario. Can any of you comment on that ?
Secondly, what if I file less than a year after I have moved to my assignment ? Does that help ?
I am also considering the possibility of filing and then leaving for the assignment.

Please advise on the possibilities of these scenarios ( with obviously approved N470 and REP).

Thanks

 

[baikal3]

Thanks baikal3.

While searching this forum, I found reference to a case from HumHongeKamyaab who, it seems has obtained approval while filing from abroad in a similar scenario. Can any of you comment on that ?

Yes, that was an interesting case:
http://forums.immigration.com/showt...tside-the-US&p=2569369&highlight=#post2569369
http://forums.immigration.com/showt...racker/page5&p=2579520&highlight=#post2579520

There are a few possibilities here. It may be that the IO misinterpreted the rules and approved the case by mistake. Many IOs are not very experienced and not very well trained, and when a relatively rare and nonstandard situation arises, they can screw up.

It is also possible that the applicant in that case actually misled the IO regarding where he was residing at the time of the application and the interview.

Neither one is an attractive possibility and is not something that you want to emulate or count on.

Secondly, what if I file less than a year after I have moved to my assignment ? Does that help ?

In principle, it should not. What matters is where your actual primary residence is at the time of the application and of the interview (abroad or in the U.S.), not how long you have been residing abroad prior to filing N-400.

I am also considering the possibility of filing and then leaving for the assignment.

That would only partly cover you, but would not solve the problem that at the time of the interview your primary place of residence would be located abroad.

 

[pdjune2001]

Re

Yes, that was an interesting case:
http://forums.immigration.com/showt...tside-the-US&p=2569369&highlight=#post2569369
http://forums.immigration.com/showt...racker/page5&p=2579520&highlight=#post2579520

There are a few possibilities here. It may be that the IO misinterpreted the rules and approved the case by mistake. Many IOs are not very experienced and not very well trained, and when a relatively rare and nonstandard situation arises, they can screw up.

It is also possible that the applicant in that case actually misled the IO regarding where he was residing at the time of the application and the interview.

Neither one is an attractive possibility and is not something that you want to emulate or count on.






In principle, it should not. What matters is where your actual primary residence is at the time of the application and of the interview (abroad or in the U.S.), not how long you have been residing abroad prior to filing N-400.


That would only partly cover you, but would not solve the problem that at the time of the interview your primary place of residence would be located abroad.

Thanks Baikal3.
Is it possible to get interview and oath on the same date ? Typically, how long is the gap between filing and FP date / walk-in FP ? I am in the westchester county, NY area.
Also, Should I continue to rent until I get the interview ?

HumHongeKamyaab, can you please share your experience during interview / oath ?

Jackolantern, BobSmyth : Can you please also comment ?

Thanks

 

[immlegal]

Almost all the answers here are flat out wrong. I have consulted with 3 different attorneys on this topic and have got unanimous opinions. There are similar themes in xxx.com, where xxxxxxx has addressed this topic (google search).

To be sure, you are able to apply for N-400 with approved N470 and REP. While you can apply for N400 from overseas, as a matter of caution your attorney might ask you to be present in the US (to be consistent with current address).

N470 allows you the ability to stay longer than 6 months without the presumption of breaking continuous residency. If you enter the country every 6 months, you may not even need the N470. But N470 is very good to have, and so is REP.

Residency is a complicated matter and is not the same as domicile. Almost all the previous posts are wrong and confused on this. The 90 days is not immediately prior to the application of the petition. It is any 90 days before you apply as long as you have not established residency in another state.

Physical residency is an absolute requirement which I assume you have already fulfilled.

I would highly recommend that you use an attorney to help with your case. Be assured that while not routine, this is not complicated. I have known several people who have successfully completed the naturalization process, and not because the IO made a mistake - that comment was especially presumptuous.

 

[pdjune2001]

Re

Almost all the answers here are flat out wrong. I have consulted with 3 different attorneys on this topic and have got unanimous opinions. There are similar themes in xxx.com, where xxxxxxx has addressed this topic (google search).

To be sure, you are able to apply for N-400 with approved N470 and REP. While you can apply for N400 from overseas, as a matter of caution your attorney might ask you to be present in the US (to be consistent with current address).

N470 allows you the ability to stay longer than 6 months without the presumption of breaking continuous residency. If you enter the country every 6 months, you may not even need the N470. But N470 is very good to have, and so is REP.

Residency is a complicated matter and is not the same as domicile. Almost all the previous posts are wrong and confused on this. The 90 days is not immediately prior to the application of the petition. It is any 90 days before you apply as long as you have not established residency in another state.

Physical residency is an absolute requirement which I assume you have already fulfilled.

I would highly recommend that you use an attorney to help with your case. Be assured that while not routine, this is not complicated. I have known several people who have successfully completed the naturalization process, and not because the IO made a mistake - that comment was especially presumptuous.

Thanks immlegal.
This is so helpful.

If I have an approved REP and N470, do you think I need to continue rent here while I am away ?
Finally, my assignment is expected to start on Jan 1 while I become eligible to apply for N400 on Feb 10.
What is the right course of action you all would advise here ?

Thanks

 

[immlegal]

My suggestion is hire an attorney. It will cost about $700 which is probably well spent to put your mind at ease and help ensure that your responses are accurate and effective.

You do not need to rent an apartment. But maintain residence and have an address (relative / friend) in that jurisdiction which you can continue to use for bank account, credit card, etc. while you are abroad. Your immigration notices can also be sent to this address, even though if you engage an attorney, (s)he will get notices on your behalf as well.

Most of all ensure that you keep your driver license active and pay the state (city and federal) taxes as resident on your global income - you may need to submit these at the time of your interview.

Humhongekamyaab's post is very instructive as a guide on how to navigate this situation. Read posts from bobsmyth and jackolantern in this forum in other threads for accurate information.

Thanks immlegal.
This is so helpful.

If I have an approved REP and N470, do you think I need to continue rent here while I am away ?
Finally, my assignment is expected to start on Jan 1 while I become eligible to apply for N400 on Feb 10.
What is the right course of action you all would advise here ?

Thanks

 

[pdjune2001]

Hi immlegal, Jackolantern and others,

As I get close to my assignment starting January, I am thinking about the possibility of going abroad after filing REP and N470 in December.

Then, as I become eligible for N400, I would like to file that in Feb 2013. However, here is the question that is bothering me. My wife would be a dependent on my N470. If I apply for N400 only for myself ( and for my wife, for whatever reason), will her N470 automatically get invalidated once I apply and / or receive the approval for N400 ?

Thanks for your help.

 

[ptking]

FYI, I got my citizenship a week ago. I applied from abroad with an approved N-470. My interview and oath were on the same day at the San Francisco USCIS office. Mine was an administrative oath in front of a USCIS official in his office.

Bottom line:

1. If you have an approved N-470, and have accumulated the required physical residence, you CAN apply from abroad.
2. When applying, you can submit fingerprints on the FBI FD-258 cards and save a trip to the US for biometrics. I did not do this myself as I was not aware this was possible.
3. The 90-day residence requirement is NOT for the 90 days immediately preceding the filing of the N-400. Basically, you should have resided in that district for that period at SOME time in the past.
4. USCIS takes the view that an approved N-470 preserves BOTH continuous residence in general AND residence in the last district you lived in before leaving the US. What this simply means is that with an approved 470, USCIS will consider you to be residing in that last district for ALL the time you are abroad right up to the interview and oath.

 

[cafeconleche]

Nice. Thanks for the update.

 

[nwctzn]

FYI, I got my citizenship a week ago. I applied from abroad with an approved N-470. My interview and oath were on the same day at the San Francisco USCIS office. Mine was an administrative oath in front of a USCIS official in his office.

Bottom line:

1. If you have an approved N-470, and have accumulated the required physical residence, you CAN apply from abroad.
2. When applying, you can submit fingerprints on the FBI FD-258 cards and save a trip to the US for biometrics. I did not do this myself as I was not aware this was possible.
3. The 90-day residence requirement is NOT for the 90 days immediately preceding the filing of the N-400. Basically, you should have resided in that district for that period at SOME time in the past.
4. USCIS takes the view that an approved N-470 preserved BOTH continuous residence in general AND residence in the last district you lived in before leaving the US.

Very useful information. Thanks much for sharing and congrats on completing the process!

 

[pdjune2001]

Re : N470 and N400 from abroad

Thank you so much for your response. This is very useful.
Can you please share with me more about your whole experience ( FP, Interview and Oath) as well as the dates for the various steps ?

How is this FBI FD - 258 done / requested from abroad ?
Did you hire an attorney ?

So, you had to make only 1 trip for the interview / oath ?
This will help me immensely if I can do it.

Thanks a lot.
I appreciate your help.

FYI, I got my citizenship a week ago. I applied from abroad with an approved N-470. My interview and oath were on the same day at the San Francisco USCIS office. Mine was an administrative oath in front of a USCIS official in his office.

Bottom line:

1. If you have an approved N-470, and have accumulated the required physical residence, you CAN apply from abroad.
2. When applying, you can submit fingerprints on the FBI FD-258 cards and save a trip to the US for biometrics. I did not do this myself as I was not aware this was possible.
3. The 90-day residence requirement is NOT for the 90 days immediately preceding the filing of the N-400. Basically, you should have resided in that district for that period at SOME time in the past.
4. USCIS takes the view that an approved N-470 preserved BOTH continuous residence in general AND residence in the last district you lived in before leaving the US.

 

[Jackolantern]

So, you had to make only 1 trip for the interview / oath ?
This will help me immensely if I can do it.

Same-day oath is not offered in most locations. You'll need to find out if it is available in your location (such as by searching the forum, or telling us your city/state).

Even if same-day oath is available in your location, you'll only get it if your case doesn't have anything to delay your oath beyond the same day, such as supervisor review or additional documents the interviewer wants you to submit. So you won't know if you'll get same day oath until you actually complete the interview.

 

[pdjune2001]

Thanks jackolantern for your help.
I am in White Plains, NY

If I cant get a same day Oath, how long will be the expected break between the interview and oath ?

If I have an approved N470, then based on ptking's comments, I can can submit fingerprints on the FBI FD-258 cards (Done in a US consulate in India) along with N400 from abroad ?

Is my understanding correct ?