N400 or N600?

S

spearfishing

Registered Users (C)
Hi,

My dad got naturalized when I was under the age of 18 meaning I can just file the N-600 to get my citizenship, but the problem is that I do not have a birth certificate so, my application might get deny and I will waste 600 dollars, that is what I was told by uscis workers. Should I just file the N-400 on my own which, is only 80 dollars more? Or will they deny me from the n400 and tell me to file the n-600 instead after reviewing my n400 application? Just want to make sure before I file the n400 because one of the question on the form ask, Are either of your parents U.S citizen.
 
I assume you had a Green Card before you turned 18. Did your parents provide a birth certificate for you when they applied for your Green Card? If they did, then you don't need to resubmit if you apply for N-600. I don't think they would deny your application, but they might ask for additional proof or the birth certificate.
 
spearfishing said:
but the problem is that I do not have a birth certificate.
Click to expand...

Why can't you get birth certificate?
It is risky both ways, assuming the worst case.
If you file N400, they can always ask 1) how you got your green card, 2) did your parents naturalize, 3) when did they naturalize. And there you have a strike. Filing N400 means you are counting on them to not ask these questions.
As Huracan said, you must have submitted BC for your green card, rather your parents must have. Unless there is an urgency, track it and / or file FOIA to retrieve it.
 
We came to the U.S as refugee. I had my green card since 1992 I was two at the time. Never got a birth certificate issued. I know my N 400 would get approve 100 percent just that one question I stated is really questionable.
 
There is no 100% if you fail one question. Given you entered refugee status, you can claim that it is hard or impossible for you to get BC. I don't want to make you spend money, but I think a good lawyer will be able to justify it in a letter after collating whatever you already have.
 
spearfishing said:
We came to the U.S as refugee. I had my green card since 1992 I was two at the time. Never got a birth certificate issued. I know my N 400 would get approve 100 percent just that one question I stated is really questionable.
Click to expand...

I think you are incorrect about 100% chance of your N-400 getting approved. If you are already a U.S. citizen, you cannot naturalize.
I remember seeing a thread a while back about a guy whose N-400 was denied because USCIS determined that he was already a U.S. citizen.

If you don't have a birth certificate, presumably you have other documents with your date of birth, right?

I think you should file N-600 if you are indeed eligible for derived U.S. citizenship under the Child Citizenship Act.

Another option is to skip the N400/N600 altogether and to apply for a U.S. passport directly, with the documents that you do have. For people who derived citizenship under the CDA filing N-600 is optional and it is possible to apply for a U.S. passport directly to the State Department. Many people do just that; experience seems to show that the State Department people are a little more liberal regarding documentary requirements than USCIS. Plus applying for a passport is much cheaper than for N400/N600. Still, you will need to get all the documents required to show that you qualify under CDA, which is a bit more of a hassle now, since you are over 18. You'll need your parents marriage certificate, and a proof that you lived in their physical and legal custody prior to age of 18 (school records would probably do), plus your dad's naturalization certificate, and whatever documentation regarding your birth that you do have.
 
File the N-600. USCIS is obligated to weigh the evidence under the preponderance of the evidence standard, already has the evidence in your A-file, and has previously examined it and accepted it in order to grant you refugee status and permanent residence.

8 CFR 341.2 Examination upon application.

(c) Proof. The burden of proof shall be upon the claimant, or his parent or guardian if one is acting in his behalf, to establish the claimed citizenship by a preponderance of the evidence.
*******************************************************
To understand what the above means see: Matter of Chawathe at: http://www.justice.gov/eoir/vll/intdec/vol25/3700.pdf which holds, in part:

(3) In most administrative immigration proceedings, the applicant must prove
by a preponderance of evidence that he or she is eligible for the benefit sought.

(4) Even if the director has some doubt as to the truth, if the petitioner submits relevant,
probative, and credible evidence that leads the director to believe that the claim is “more
likely than not” or “probably” true, the applicant has satisfied the standard of proof.
Matter of E-M-, 20 I&N Dec. 77, 79-80 (Comm’r 1989), followed.

(5) If the director can articulate a material doubt, it is appropriate for the director to either
request additional evidence or, if that doubt leads the director to believe that the claim
is probably not true, deny the application or petition.
********************************************************
Regarding CCA Sec. 320 see: http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...div8&view=text&node=8:1.0.1.3.71.0.1.3&idno=8

The above link to the regulations explains that you can rely on the evidence in your A-file that was already submitted. In the case of a Refugee, your "birth record" may consist of a document created by the UNHCR or an INS/USCIS Officer or an aid organization or third country/international refugee processing agency. It has already been accepted for immigration purposes.

The Passport Agency does not have the documentation and, in your case, will not issue you a passport without your Certificate of Citizenship because you can't obtain a birth certificate that was probably never created in the first place. Technically, the passport agency should not be issuing any derivative citizenship case passports without the Cert of Citz, as they do not have tthe legal authority to do so.

INA Sec. 104. Powers and duties of Secretary of State [Has Authority over Passport Agency]

(a) Powers and duties

The Secretary of State shall be charged with the administration and
the enforcement of the provisions of this chapter and all other
immigration and nationality laws relating to (1) the powers, duties, and
functions of diplomatic and consular officers of the United States,
except those powers, duties, and functions conferred upon the consular
officers relating to the granting or refusal of visas; (2) the powers,
duties, and functions of the Administrator; and (3) the determination of
nationality of a person not in the United States.................................
 
What kind of information is in my A-file just out of curiosity? Thats probably the only big evidence I got except for his naturalization certificate and official high school transcript record.
 
Your A-file has a copy of just about every immigration-related document about you for your entire life -- visa applications and visas, copy of your green card paperwork and the green card itself, copy of your passport pages, supporting documents used for immigration applications.

Is your father still alive? If yes, a DNA test can be used for proof of the paternal relationship if there is no birth certificate (or if USCIS says the birth certificate is not enough). However, if you got your green card through your father's asylum application, that means USCIS has already established the paternal relationship so they shouldn't give you a problem about it now.

Were you living with your father for any portion of time between when he naturalized and you turned 18? Did your mother become a US citizen?
 
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BigJoe5 said:
Technically, the passport agency should not be issuing any derivative citizenship case passports without the Cert of Citz, as they do not have tthe legal authority to do so.
Click to expand...

Hmm, I do know for a fact that passports are issued in the U.S. by the State Department without certificates of citizenship or naturalization all the time. There are lots of threads in this very forum about people who have done precisely that, usually exactly under the Child Citizenship Act provisions.
 
BigJoe5 said:
The Passport Agency does not have the documentation and, in your case, will not issue you a passport without your Certificate of Citizenship because you can't obtain a birth certificate that was probably never created in the first place. Technically, the passport agency should not be issuing any derivative citizenship case passports without the Cert of Citz, as they do not have tthe legal authority to do so.
Click to expand...

Secondary proof of US citizenship includes all of the following:

Your foreign birth certificate
Evidence of citizenship of your U.S. citizen parent
Your parents' marriage certificate
An statement of your U.S. citizen parent detailing all periods and places of residence or physical presence in the United States and abroad before your birth.

Therefore, a certificate of citizenship is not necessary required to obtain a US passport for derivative citizenship cases.

http://travel.state.gov/passport/get/secondary_evidence/secondary_evidence_4315.html
 
BigJoe5 said:
The Passport Agency does not have the documentation and, in your case, will not issue you a passport without your Certificate of Citizenship because you can't obtain a birth certificate that was probably never created in the first place.
Click to expand...

You don't know that and the OP will not know that until and unless he tries. Wherever the application for a U.S. passport is made (inside or outside the U.S., at a passport agency, or at a passport facility at a post office), the U.S. State Department may examine secondary evidence of U.S. citizenship and issue a passport. Literally tens of thousands (probably hundreds of thousands) of people have received passports this way in the U.S. without ever getting a certificate of citizenship.

Getting a certificate of citizenship may be a good idea any way, but little is lost by trying to get a U.S. passport first. It is cheaper, the processing is much faster and in the worst case, if the passport application is denied, one can always file N-600 later.
 
FROM: http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/us...7e539dc4bed010VgnVCM1000000ecd190aRCRD&CH=afm

USCIS AFM 71.1 (e)

(1) Initial Documentation .

The documentary evidence in support of the N-600 application is not required if such evidence is available for use in other files. The instructions of the Form N-600 state that if the required documents are available, you should request the file to obtain them before asking the applicant to submit duplicate copies.

An unexpired United States passport issued for 5 or 10 years is now considered prima facie evidence of U.S. citizenship. Because it does not provide the actual basis upon which citizenship was acquired or derived, the submission of additional documentation may be required or the passport file may be requested. If after review there are differences or discrepancies between the USCIS information and the Passport Office records which would indicate that the application should not be approved, no action should be taken until the Passport Office has an opportunity to review and decide whether to revoke the passport.

If the applicant indicates that he or she did apply for some sort of documentation from the State Department, you may send a completed Form N-602 to the Director of the Washington District office. Clearly describe the document requested. Similarly, if documents requested are unusual in nature, they should be described in reasonable detail. Furthermore, if there appears to be a question concerning the legitimacy of the applicant, the validity of his parents’ marriage, or some other matter which may be expected to be resolved upon the basis of the documents requested, this fact should be appropriately stated in Form N-602. If there is some reason to believe that the applicant or parent has expatriated, briefly explain the facts on the form. You may attach supplementary sheets if there is not enough room on the Form N-602. Washington Investigations will verify the information or document requested with the Department of State. You should review the Foreign Affairs Manual. ........
*********************************
The above is from the USCIS Adjudicator's Field Manual instructing on the adjudication of N-600 cases.
*********************************
FROM: http://coa.courts.mi.gov/DOCUMENTS/OPINIONS/FINAL/COA/20100817_C289724_57_289724.OPN.PDF

'First, we must look to the meaning of “prima facie evidence.” Because this is a legal
term not defined by the statute, we may consult a legal dictionary.3 Black’s Law Dictionary (5th
ed), p 1071, defines “prima facie evidence” as follows:

Evidence good and sufficient on its face; such evidence as, in the
judgment of the law, is sufficient to establish a given fact, or the group or chain of
facts constituting the party’s claim or defense, and which if not rebutted or
contradicted, will remain sufficient. Prima facie evidence is evidence which, if
unexplained or uncontradicted, is sufficient to sustain a judgment in favor of the
issue which it supports, but which may be contradicted by other evidence.

Prima facie evidence is evidence that, until its effect is overcome by other
evidence, will suffice as proof of fact in issue; “prima facie case” is one that will
entitle party to recover if no evidence to contrary is offered by opposite party.
Evidence which suffices for the proof of a particular fact until contradicted and
overcome by other evidence. Evidence which, standing alone and unexplained,
would maintain the proposition and warrant the conclusion to support which it is
introduced. An inference or presumption of law, affirmative or negative of a fact,
in the absence of proof, or until proof can be obtained or produced to overcome
the inference.

This definition makes it abundantly clear that prima facie evidence is rebuttable. ..."
****************************
I know some of you hate my long posts, but when I try to "cut to the chase" someone always argues. I can either ignore it, agree with them and change my mind, or substantiate it. Here I choose to substantiate it.
 
Bobsmyth said:
Secondary proof of US citizenship includes all of the following:

Your foreign birth certificate
Evidence of citizenship of your U.S. citizen parent
Your parents' marriage certificate
An statement of your U.S. citizen parent detailing all periods and places of residence or physical presence in the United States and abroad before your birth.

Therefore, a certificate of citizenship is not necessary required to obtain a US passport for derivative citizenship cases.

http://travel.state.gov/passport/get/secondary_evidence/secondary_evidence_4315.html
Click to expand...

The OP came as a REFUGEE and has no foreign birth certificate to submit to the Passport Agency.
 
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baikal3 said:
You don't know that and the OP will not know that until and unless he tries. Wherever the application for a U.S. passport is made (inside or outside the U.S., at a passport agency, or at a passport facility at a post office), the U.S. State Department may examine secondary evidence of U.S. citizenship and issue a passport. Literally tens of thousands (probably hundreds of thousands) of people have received passports this way in the U.S. without ever getting a certificate of citizenship.

Getting a certificate of citizenship may be a good idea any way, but little is lost by trying to get a U.S. passport first. It is cheaper, the processing is much faster and in the worst case, if the passport application is denied, one can always file N-600 later.
Click to expand...

The OP cannot meet either the primary evidence requirements or the secondary evidence requirements at this time. This person is in a particular situation. If he files for a Passport at this point without sufficient evidence, his passport application will be denied. This OP needs to file an N-600 before approaching the Passport Agency because he has insufficient secondary evidence. The "little lost" will be the filing fee and his time.
 
baikal3 said:
Hmm, I do know for a fact that passports are issued in the U.S. by the State Department without certificates of citizenship or naturalization all the time. There are lots of threads in this very forum about people who have done precisely that, usually exactly under the Child Citizenship Act provisions.
Click to expand...

You are absolutely right many people do obtain U.S. Passports in the U.S. with sufficient secondary evidence. However, this OP cannot meet the evidentiary requirements. Also, USCIS has been complicit in allowing the issuance of passports to derivative USC's and has regretted it. USCIS changed their instructions to adjudicators to allow them the ability to challenge the Passports, hold the N-600 in abeyance and contact to State Department and ask them to review and revoke improperly issued passports. The State Department has gotten less sloppy in issuing such passports. The OP is in such circumstances that the Passport Agency would not issue a passport on the evidence that he cannot produce. His only recourse is to file the N-600 first in order to meet the passport evidence requirements.
 
Ialso agree that spearfishing should file N-600. Filing N-400 is most likely going to lead to waste of time and money. There have been some cases reported in this forum of N-400 applications being rejected at time of interview or before because the applicant is found to already be a citizen. Filing fees are not returned. I don't see that the N-600 route is risky, when there is an A-file and the GC has already been granted. I assume the A-file also shows the parentage relationship with the naturalized parent.
 
Yes, I was living with my parents until the age of 19. We did had this one piece of paper maybe recorded by unhcr not sure, printed during the time my parents were living in the refugee camp that recorded my date of birth, it was lost during the move, after my dad file for his naturalization he said the uscis did made a copy to put into his naturalization application. It was the only thing close to a birth certificate. The evidence I will be turning in for my N-600 are taxs return that listed me as his son on it, official high school transcript that is seal which listed my dad his my parent, photo copy of my resident card, photo copy of my social security and driver license just in case they need to match anything up, this department of health paper that listed my me and my sister on it and a photo copy of his naturalization certificate. I came to the U.S with both my parents and all my sister so hopefully my A-file said that if not it would be strange for a two year kid to arrival in the United States without any guardian. I was also told to attach a letter explaining why I do not have birth certificate. I just hope that when they when they do recieve my application that they don't deny me right away from the lack of evidence.
 
Thanks to everyone that responded to this post. All those information are really helpful and I guess I'll just ditch the N400 and go with the N600. BigJoe5 thank you for taking the time to look up those information for me.
 
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