Muthy's comment's about changing job after GC

[pralay]

No one in NYC wants to be the first one being killed in the next terrorist attack.
But does it mean that everyone should move out???

Certainly not. Because who said NY will be THE next target? It could be any city in world. If THE next target is definitely NY within some timeframe, then yes, it makes sense everybody to move out of NY - atleast those who don't want to take risk after knowing the risk.

This is an after event world. We take sth. seriously if sth. happens. You can not sit there and invent all kinds of risks everyday. That is my point.

It's not "inventing" risk, because risk is already there. But whether USCIS enforce or pursue it or not that's a different debate. May be it's a big issue, or may be not.
When you do speeding on street, there is always risk. But whether there is any cop holding a radar gun waiting at the corner of the street, that's a different debate.

The fact is that USCUS/immigration community has statistics how many citizenship given or how many GC are approved, there is no number or statistics how many refused. Probably a person will never know about that 0.01%, unless he himself is among that very small minority.

 

[kandy17]

Hi

I fully agree. I myself have changed job after 3.5 months of getting the GC. If i felt that there is even 1% risk in this, i would not have changed job.

Dsatish and gurus,

Dsatish: Congratulations!
My current assignment is coming to an end by dec22,04. My 485 approved on sept24,04. Is it ok for me to move on with Full time options...

Please give us your opinions!

Thanks
Kandy

 

[MD_Rockville]

Even if citizenship is refused, GC is still valid right ? One can re-appeal citizenship application..

 

[dsatish]

Dsatish and gurus,

Dsatish: Congratulations!
My current assignment is coming to an end by dec22,04. My 485 approved on sept24,04. Is it ok for me to move on with Full time options...

Please give us your opinions!

Thanks
Kandy

More than enough. As a green card holder, you have a right to choose the job of your choice. All these lawyers want to play it safe when it comes to giving a public advise. So just ignore the over cautious guidance. If i am a lawyer, i would have been giving the same sort of advise on my web site
As per my observation , more than 30% of the people change jobs within 6 months of getting the GC. Do you think that they are taking risk ? If they are risk takers, they wouldn't have got GC. These people know what they are doing. You will be one of them.

 

[joyd]

Why do they make things so hard for us? It's so hard for me to work in my workplace, we went though numerous acquisitions and reorgs, we are a small division of a large company who is doing a lousy job of managing! The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing! People are leaving every week, at any given day, there are 4-5 people in the office. How can we be expeced to work in these situations? Aren't we allowed to switch jobs? I just got my GC BTW. Now I have to live in this hell for 6 months just to play safe!! I think I was better off in my country, at least I could take risks in life, here I have become a puppet!!! I don't know what's right any more.

 

[joyd]

What if I become a full-time student? Will that be a problem too?

 

[dsatish]

Why do they make things so hard for us? It's so hard for me to work in my workplace, we went though numerous acquisitions and reorgs, we are a small division of a large company who is doing a lousy job of managing! The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing! People are leaving every week, at any given day, there are 4-5 people in the office. How can we be expeced to work in these situations? Aren't we allowed to switch jobs? I just got my GC BTW. Now I have to live in this hell for 6 months just to play safe!! I think I was better off in my country, at least I could take risks in life, here I have become a puppet!!! I don't know what's right any more.

Don't worry. There is no such law which says you SHOULD work for the sponsoring employer for at least 6 months. It is only a suggestion from some lawyers who advocate safe approach (zero risk approach). Most of the people (including me) don't buy such advises. Have you seen all the postings in the following thread ? What was your conclusion after seeing all the postings in that thread ?

http://www.immigrationportal.com/showthread.php?t=127931

 

[joyd]

Don't worry. There is no such law which says you SHOULD work for the sponsoring employer for at least 6 months. It is only a suggestion from some lawyers who advocate safe approach (zero risk approach). Most of the people (including me) don't buy such advises. Have you seen all the postings in the following thread ? What was your conclusion after seeing all the postings in that thread ?

http://www.immigrationportal.com/showthread.php?t=127931

Thanks dsatish, that makes me feel a little better. I know I have to do something to make things better. I haven't read that thread, but thanks for posting it here, I will spend the better half of the day reading it

 

[joyd]

I read through most of the thread and got the gist out of it, now here's my question. What happens if you are employed "At Will"? Our company made us sign "At will" forms some time back mainly to prevent, for lack of better word, any kind of special package in case they lay off people, employees are also working at will, it applies to both sides. What happens in that case? Does the "intent" to work still applies as per the GC? Haven't we worked 3-4 years already to show the intent, I understand GC is for future job etc. But if the company environment is not favorable, no growth, can't we look for alternatives?

 

[Rajan123]

Please comment on this!

" i) Outstanding professors and researchers.
(1) Any United States employer desiring and intending to employ a professor or researcher who is outstanding in an academic field under section 203(b)(1)(B) of the Act may file an I-140 visa petition for such classification.
(2) Definitions. As used in this section:
Academic field means a body of specialized knowledge offered for study at an accredited United States university or institution of higher education. Permanent, in reference to a research position, means either tenured, tenure-track, or for a term of indefinite or unlimited duration, and in which the employee will ordinarily have an expectation of continued employment unless there is good cause for termination".

Hi! I am pasting this information (for EB1 OR) from USCIS web site if you read the last sentence it says unless there is a good cause of termination. What is the good cause ? How it will be determined? Will it be enough to get a letter from employer saying this person is terminated for this this reasons?
And interestingly there is no mention of 6 month or one year rule!!!!
Please comment on this!
Rajan

 

[pralay]

As per my observation , more than 30% of the people change jobs within 6 months of getting the GC. Do you think that they are taking risk ? If they are risk takers, they wouldn't have got GC. These people know what they are doing. You will be one of them.

Well, people take risk for various reasons - doing lots of plus and minus on various aspect of life. Loosing a good offer from a good company is another risk too - from the perspective of career. Even I myself changed job after 8 months - because I considered the offer is pretty good. I thought I would getting citizenship is 5 years away, therefore I better take care of my career now. So just isolating the GC issue and trying to sell that "no risk matter" does not make sense. There is risk - like any other things of life. Whether you want to take it - that depends on each each individual person.

These 30% 40% has no meaning, unless you have the full picture - and that yet to come.

 

[pralay]

I read through most of the thread and got the gist out of it, now here's my question. What happens if you are employed "At Will"? Our company made us sign "At will" forms some time back mainly to prevent, for lack of better word, any kind of special package in case they lay off people, employees are also working at will, it applies to both sides. What happens in that case? Does the "intent" to work still applies as per the GC?

Most of the white collar jobs in USA are "at will" (whether it's mentioned on offer letter or not). GC law does not address that. Why should they anyway? As per GC law, you should have intent to work with GC sponsorer as permanent basis when you get your GC. Here, "permanent" does not mean working forever like a slave, but reasonable amount of time to prove that you had intent to work with GC sponsorer when you got your GC. It's a common sense that longer you stay with your GC sponsorer, easier to prove that your GC was not fraud. How long - that's your judgement. Some says 6 months, some says 1 years and some says 2 months.

Just take the example of H1. H1 visas are given for normally 2 years upto 6 years max. It does not mean the employer have to employ an H1 employee upto 6 years and it does not mean employee have to stick with H1 sponsorer upto 6 years. Employer can layoff a H1 employee anytime, and employee can leave H1 employer anytime.

Haven't we worked 3-4 years already to show the intent, I understand GC is for future job etc. But if the company environment is not favorable, no growth, can't we look for alternatives?

As I mentioned before, any employment before getting GC is temporary with specific timelimit - on H1/L1/EAD. They have nothing to do with your GC employment. Does working on H1/L1 for 4-5 years gives a non-immigrant visa holder an "entitilement of getting GC" automatically? No. Because they are two separate things. Therefore working 4-5 years with the employer, who just happened to be your GC sponsorer, does not count for GC employment (or future employment). Now, unfavorable "company environment" "no growth" those are totally unrelated issue and nothing to do with immigration. That's the baggage you get when you "agree" to obtains GC through a company where there is no career growth or good working environment. It's like saying "I don't want your baggage but I want GC from you".

 

[Rajan123]

Hi! Pralay ! What is your comments on good cause of termination!!

i) Outstanding professors and researchers.
(1) Any United States employer desiring and intending to employ a professor or researcher who is outstanding in an academic field under section 203(b)(1)(B) of the Act may file an I-140 visa petition for such classification.
(2) Definitions. As used in this section:
Academic field means a body of specialized knowledge offered for study at an accredited United States university or institution of higher education. Permanent, in reference to a research position, means either tenured, tenure-track, or for a term of indefinite or unlimited duration, and in which the employee will ordinarily have an expectation of continued employment unless there is good cause for termination".

Hi! I am pasting this information (for EB1 OR) from USCIS web site if you read the last sentence it says unless there is a good cause of termination. What is the good cause ? How it will be determined? Will it be enough to get a letter from employer saying this person is terminated for this this reasons?
And interestingly there is no mention of 6 month or one year rule!!!!
Please comment on this!
Rajan

 

[pralay]

i)
(2) Definitions. As used in this section:
Academic field means a body of specialized knowledge offered for study at an accredited United States university or institution of higher education. Permanent, in reference to a research position, means either tenured, tenure-track, or for a term of indefinite or unlimited duration, and in which the employee will ordinarily have an expectation of continued employment unless there is good cause for termination".

"Good cause of termination" is a legal word which covers almost everything and almost nothing - depending on how you interpret. Few examples are getting better salary in another university, getting better research opportunity in another university/company, personal reasons (difficulty in some specific weather conditions) etc etc etc. Imagine anything you can. Bottomline is that, when you receive your GC basically you are agreeing to accept the employment and "have an expectation of continued employment".

i
And interestingly there is no mention of 6 month or one year rule!!!!

There is NO written rule like that. It's thumb rule. The number also varies person to person depending on each individual's own personal judgement. Some says 1 years, some says 6 months, some says 3 months and some says it's OK to never work for the GC sponsorer (I personally know a person who never worked for GC sponsorer - never before GC approval, never after GC approval). Now you make your own judgment.

 

[Rajan123]

"Good cause of termination" is a legal word which covers almost everything and almost nothing - depending on how you interpret. Few examples are getting better salary in another university, getting better research opportunity in another university/company, personal reasons (difficulty in some specific weather conditions) etc etc etc. Imagine anything you can. Bottomline is that ". .

So basically having exceptions like "good cause of termination" opens up a huge and highly flexible loopholes for the people who want to switch the jobs. People always want to change the job for good cause!
And one more thing, if one looks at the eligiblity conditions to obtain GC for employment categories( at least in EB1 group) very few could fullfill (like nobel prize awardee) them however approval is 99% in thease categories.
I am not saying that it is risk free to change the jobs. My point is
it is just as much a risk as when one apply for GC, where no one is sure that it is going to be successful, merely because most of them don't fulfill requirements for GC (atleast in EB1 because they ask numerous awards etc).
Any comments........
Rajan

 

[pralay]

And one more thing, if one looks at the eligiblity conditions to obtain GC for employment categories( at least in EB1 group) very few could fullfill (like nobel prize awardee) them however approval is 99% in thease categories.
I am not saying that it is risk free to change the jobs. My point is
it is just as much a risk as when one apply for GC, where no one is sure that it is going to be successful, merely because most of them don't fulfill requirements for GC (atleast in EB1 because they ask numerous awards etc).
Any comments........
Rajan

As far my understanding, for EB1 category, the person have to be "outstanding researcher" and the GC job offer has to be "a position where he/she can apply his/her ability to research". It does not mean "already nobel prize winner" but potential of being nobel prize winner. Normally degree like PhD and sufficient number of papers published in international journals cover this GC qualification. If you think objectively you will see that a nobel prize winner is not more qualified than any other "outstanding researchers" who got GC thru EB1 category.

 

[gctechie]

here's how..

Now I have to live in this hell for 6 months just to play safe!! I think I was better off in my country, at least I could take risks in life, here I have become a puppet!!! I don't know what's right any more.

I will also be most likely in a similar situation , though i havent got the GC . My take on this is that everything is based on intent. Your EMPLOYER loses that intent the minute he decides to lay you off or fire you. You could always take the stand that you want to go two month's vacation with pay ! Or that you have some kind of disease ( oh yaaah, anxiety attacks caused due to waiting for GC approval !!!!) so you want to go on medical leave with pay for sometime.

Tell your employer he is free to lay you off if he wants to. The minute you get a letter from your employer terminating you or laying you off, in MY OPINION, you are a free man with a GC!!!

 

[Rajan123]

As far my understanding, for EB1 category, the person have to be "outstanding researcher" and the GC job offer has to be "a position where he/she can apply his/her ability to research". It does not mean "already nobel prize winner" but potential of being nobel prize winner. Normally degree like PhD and sufficient number of papers published in international journals cover this GC qualification. If you think objectively you will see that a nobel prize winner is not more qualified than any other "outstanding researchers" who got GC thru EB1 category.

No it is not just a ability to do research(that doesn't even need a Ph.D) one has to be a receipant of major prizes or awards for outstanding achievement!!!!
Let me give you one more
Membership in associations that require their members to demonstrate outstanding achievements!!!
In paper it sound so unachievable- actually people who have far less than mediocare record( I am being one of them) get the GC.

No one cares about such a hefty requirements but just goahead for GC!
My opinion about switching job is as much as being a outstanding or great scientist. I feel this way because USCIS has created a loophole by inserting "good cause"( looks to me it is deliberate for practical reasons) unlike
for example condition like " While the EB-1 worker of extraordinary ability may petition for himself or herself, the employer must file the petition for an outstanding professor or researcher and a multinational executive or manager"
obiviously this condition is immutable as there are no exceptions!
Any comments ....
Thanks
Rajan

 

[kandy17]

Thank you dsatish

More than enough. As a green card holder, you have a right to choose the job of your choice. All these lawyers want to play it safe when it comes to giving a public advise. So just ignore the over cautious guidance. If i am a lawyer, i would have been giving the same sort of advise on my web site
As per my observation , more than 30% of the people change jobs within 6 months of getting the GC. Do you think that they are taking risk ? If they are risk takers, they wouldn't have got GC. These people know what they are doing. You will be one of them.

Dsatish,
Thank you for your guidance. I am coming out of the project during holidays and I just started searching for FULL TIMe jobs. I hate changing jobs.....
Now, I think its enough of feeding my employer.
Thanks
Kandy

 

[dsatish]

Why job chabge issue was addressed only during I485 stage

The below is a copy of my comments in another thread in the "Life after GC" forum.

I think that while discussing the job change (after GC) issue, many people do not see an important point. The law makers allowed a person to change sponsoring employer 6 months after the I485 is filed and I485 is pending. Why did they do that ? Why didn't they give the same freedom for I485 approved people ? If you try to look for a logical answer to this question, then you will get the answer to the main subject of our discussion.
It is because they felt that it is unfair to force an employee to work for the same employer for a long time. The law makers realized (or it was brought to their notice) that the whole GC process was taking a long time and they sought to give some relief to the employees and they passed a law to that effect (job change after 6 months). The only reason why job change was adressed for pending I485 applicants, is that there is no law that asks a GC holder to work for certain period of time or work indefinitely for the sponsoring employer. Clearly the wording "the person should have an intent to work for the sponsoring employer" is different from "the person should work for sponsoring employer". If the law makers strictly wanted that a Employment based GC holder to work for the sponsoring employer after getting the GC, they would have used the language "the person should work" instead of "the person should have an intent to work". The law makers seemed to have tried to maintain some balance beween the need to catch the fraud with the need to give freedom to the employees to change the jobs. Fraud comes into picture if you got a Greencard through a company for which you never worked.
You can't measure "intent at one particular time" with actions at some other particular time (which might have been a result of "intent at the other particualr time ) . That is the bottom line for my arguments and i am sure that INS will not fool itself by taking action against any one for not proving his intentions on so and so date. Intention at a particular time can only be measured by actions at that particular time, not later actions.