More than 15 traffic tickets in the past five years, worried about naturalization interview

[kklarry]

I did some homework and found I had about 10 traffic ticket in the past five years. 4-5 red light, another 4 speeding, one driving on car pool lane, one improper lane change, and one stop sign. With so many traffic tickets, should I worry that I will be denied citizenship. Also some of the tickets were so long ago, I couldnt remember the exact date and location. I have been living in three states in the past five years and got the driver record from all three states, and all my driver licenses were in good standing, no suspension, that means I took care of all the tickets.

What should I do about my situation. right now in my driver record, there was only two tickets, one in 2010, one in 2012. Maybe I can just report these two? The other tickets were no longer in driver record.

Gurus, please give me some insight.

Thank you very much in advance.

 

[baikal3]

I did some homework and found I had about 10 traffic ticket in the past five years. 4-5 red light, another 4 speeding, one driving on car pool lane, one improper lane change, and one stop sign. With so many traffic tickets, should I worry that I will be denied citizenship. Also some of the tickets were so long ago, I couldnt remember the exact date and location. I have been living in three states in the past five years and got the driver record from all three states, and all my driver licenses were in good standing, no suspension, that means I took care of all the tickets.

What should I do about my situation. right now in my driver record, there was only two tickets, one in 2010, one in 2012. Maybe I can just report these two? The other tickets were no longer in driver record.

Gurus, please give me some insight.

Thank you very much in advance.

I am having a hard time with your math. Is it 10 tickets in the last 5 years or 15 tickets in the last 5 years?
Or something in between?

5 red light + 4 speeding + 1 car pool lane + 1 improper lane change + 1 stop sign gives 12.

Also, if you really got that many tickets within 5 years, how is it that your license still has not been suspended? Or has it been suspended?

Also, what kind of fines did you have to pay for these tickets? Were any of the fines over $500? Did you have any other penalties imposed for any of the tickets apart from paying a fine?

 

[Aakash28]

I did some homework and found I had about 10 traffic ticket in the past five years. 4-5 red light, another 4 speeding, one driving on car pool lane, one improper lane change, and one stop sign. With so many traffic tickets, should I worry that I will be denied citizenship. Also some of the tickets were so long ago, I couldnt remember the exact date and location. I have been living in three states in the past five years and got the driver record from all three states, and all my driver licenses were in good standing, no suspension, that means I took care of all the tickets.

What should I do about my situation. right now in my driver record, there was only two tickets, one in 2010, one in 2012. Maybe I can just report these two? The other tickets were no longer in driver record.

Gurus, please give me some insight.

Thank you very much in advance.

More than 15 TTs are quite a lot in 5 year time span. But what about period before last 5 years? Did you received TTs during that time span as well?

Here is my opinion assuming that you have not disclosed your trafiic tickets in your N-400 application and that all your traffic tickets are paid for. During the interview when the IO goes through your application and verifies the citation related section, you should let the IO know that you got quite a few tickets in each of the 3 states that you have lived in... some red light violations, speeding violations etc.. but for none of them you were fined over $500. If the IO asks for further details (which he/she might not) you should be prepared to hand over all the court dispositions and other records related to all those traffic violations.

 

[kklarry]

I had about 10 traffic tickets.

More than 15 TTs are quite a lot in 5 year time span. But what about period before last 5 years? Did you received TTs during that time span as well?

Here is my opinion assuming that you have not disclosed your trafiic tickets in your N-400 application and that all your traffic tickets are paid for. During the interview when the IO goes through your application and verifies the citation related section, you should let the IO know that you got quite a few tickets in each of the 3 states that you have lived in... some red light violations, speeding violations etc.. but for none of them you were fined over $500. If the IO asks for further details (which he/she might not) you should be prepared to hand over all the court dispositions and other records related to all those traffic violations.

I used to live in State A, State B, State C.

I have about 10 tickets. My bad, I calculated wrong and I have some duplicate when I counted earlier.

I have first ticket in 12/2006 and then two in 06/2007, all three are speeding. The first one is out of state ticket, it was none of the three states I used to live. I used state A driver license. I paid the money, it was closed. then second ticket was in State B and I used State B driver license and paid the money. the third ticket was in State A, I used State A driver license and paid the money. Then I moved to State C and got a State C driver license.


All the rest of the tickets happened in State C and I always used State C driver license. The fourth ticket was improper lane change, I took traffic school. The fifth and sixth are red light and I took traffic school. The seventh also red light, I paid the fine. The eighth was driving on carpool lane when I was by myself. I paid the money and took traffic school because it was 18 months later. the ninth ticket I went to court and I won, judge dismissed the case. The 10th ticket is police said I didnt park 6 seconds behind stop sign. I paid the money and took traffic school.

I dont think any of the ticket was more than $500, and I never got any other penalties. My driver license never got suspended. None of my DL was suspended. I always took care of my tickets. I think if you didnt take care of your tickets, your driver license will be for sure suspended.

Before 12/2006, I didnt have any tickets.

I know it was not looking good to have so many tickets in five years. Now I drive carefully.

But some of the tickets were so long ago, I couldnt even remember which city I got the ticket and it was really hard to get hold of the out of state traffic court to get the proof that I took care of the ticket. Plus sometimes your memory can fail you. Will IO know the difference between judge dismissed case and then I paid the fine and took traffic school? I dont know, I just have to prepare for the worst.

 

[Vorpal]

You'll be fine. It's just minor traffic tickets.

On a different topic, I'd hate to imagine what your insurance premiums are!

 

[-me-]

Will IO know the difference between judge dismissed case and then I paid the fine and took traffic school? I dont know, I just have to prepare for the worst.

You have to have (and submit/present upon demand) the original citation or its certified copy along with the court disposition. So, the question is how many citations your were found guilty in? If it's all of them, I assume you may have some difficulty establishing GMC.

 

[cmaulana2000]

cmaulana2000

I did some homework and found I had about 10 traffic ticket in the past five years. 4-5 red light, another 4 speeding, one driving on car pool lane, one improper lane change, and one stop sign. With so many traffic tickets, should I worry that I will be denied citizenship. Also some of the tickets were so long ago, I couldnt remember the exact date and location. I have been living in three states in the past five years and got the driver record from all three states, and all my driver licenses were in good standing, no suspension, that means I took care of all the tickets.

What should I do about my situation. right now in my driver record, there was only two tickets, one in 2010, one in 2012. Maybe I can just report these two? The other tickets were no longer in driver record.

Gurus, please give me some insight.

Thank you very much in advance.

You will pass your interview based on the questions you will be ask, but I feel sad for you for all those tickets, this is also a sign that you are not serious in you life.
Obey road signs.

 

[Aakash28]

I used to live in State A, State B, State C.

I have about 10 tickets. My bad, I calculated wrong and I have some duplicate when I counted earlier.

I have first ticket in 12/2006 and then two in 06/2007, all three are speeding. The first one is out of state ticket, it was none of the three states I used to live. I used state A driver license. I paid the money, it was closed. then second ticket was in State B and I used State B driver license and paid the money. the third ticket was in State A, I used State A driver license and paid the money. Then I moved to State C and got a State C driver license.


All the rest of the tickets happened in State C and I always used State C driver license. The fourth ticket was improper lane change, I took traffic school. The fifth and sixth are red light and I took traffic school. The seventh also red light, I paid the fine. The eighth was driving on carpool lane when I was by myself. I paid the money and took traffic school because it was 18 months later. the ninth ticket I went to court and I won, judge dismissed the case. The 10th ticket is police said I didnt park 6 seconds behind stop sign. I paid the money and took traffic school.

I dont think any of the ticket was more than $500, and I never got any other penalties. My driver license never got suspended. None of my DL was suspended. I always took care of my tickets. I think if you didnt take care of your tickets, your driver license will be for sure suspended.

Before 12/2006, I didnt have any tickets.

I know it was not looking good to have so many tickets in five years. Now I drive carefully.

But some of the tickets were so long ago, I couldnt even remember which city I got the ticket and it was really hard to get hold of the out of state traffic court to get the proof that I took care of the ticket. Plus sometimes your memory can fail you. Will IO know the difference between judge dismissed case and then I paid the fine and took traffic school? I dont know, I just have to prepare for the worst.

kklarry - From what you have specified, you should be OK as long as none of your traffic tickets were more than $500. But it's better to be safe than sorry later. You should let the IO know that you got some traffic tickets - speeding, red-light violations etc.. when the IO goes through your application like I suggested before. You do not have to tell IO details about these TTs unless IO ask you to (which he/she most likely will not - they just wan't to know if any of these were over $500). Also, try to get court dispositions etc... for these traffic tickets.. just incase.. as a backup to show you have paid for/settled all your TTs.

 

[Aayitrun]

in case you are color blind, the red light is on top, amber in the middle and green at the bottom.

 

[Vorpal]

So, the question is how many citations your were found guilty in? If it's all of them, I assume you may have some difficulty establishing GMC.

Not exactly. Legal precedents exist where it was determined that simple traffic tickets do not preclude a naturalization applicant from establishing GMC.

 

[baikal3]

Not exactly. Legal precedents exist where it was determined that simple traffic tickets do not preclude a naturalization applicant from establishing GMC.

Could you provide links/refs to some of those court cases?

I would imagine that at some point the quantity should transform into quality, so to speak.
If someone had, say, 50 "simple" traffic tickets within 5 years but no other GMC issues, it would seem reasonable to me if an IO considering the case decides that this constitutes evidence of lack of GMC.

 

[Vorpal]

Could you provide links/refs to some of those court cases?

I certainly can. In the case linked below, an applicant has his N-400 denied for receiving 16 traffic tickets between September 1956 and June 1958 (as well as premarital sex, but that's irrelevant, in this case). The judicial decision reversed the denial, stating that "traffic violations...do not constitute the incidents envisioned by Congress as detracting from a person's qualifications for citizenship."

http://mi.findacase.com/research/wfrmDocViewer.aspx/xq/fac.19600803_0000011.EMI.htm/qx

I would imagine that at some point the quantity should transform into quality, so to speak.
If someone had, say, 50 "simple" traffic tickets within 5 years but no other GMC issues, it would seem reasonable to me if an IO considering the case decides that this constitutes evidence of lack of GMC.

If this was the case, not a single NYC cab driver would ever be able to demonstrate GMC. NYPD views cabbies (most of whom don't have a good command of English and are ignorant of their rights) as easy prey and issues them traffic tickets for whatever reason they can find, valid or not. My father used to drive a yellow cab in NYC and received an average of 1 ticket per month, which would amount to approximately 50 tickets in 5 years.

 

[-me-]

Not exactly. Legal precedents exist where it was determined that simple traffic tickets do not preclude a naturalization applicant from establishing GMC.

A traffic citation itseld if not considered as lack of GMC, however an established pattern of violating the vehicle code may be considered as such. There is no number carved in stone, which would be decisive on such matters, which makes the judgement totally subjective. It means that it's up to IO how to qualify 9 at-fault tickets in 5 years. My assumption that it may cause some issues during the interview.

 

[-me-]

If this was the case, not a single NYC cab driver would ever be able to demonstrate GMC.

Like I mentioned above, it's subjective to IO. It means, that IO takes (or at least should take) into consideration all the aspects, including the area of living/driving/commuting, occupation, the specific details of each violation, etc. It's not a hard "YES" or "NO".

-------------- http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/AFM/HTML/AFM/0-0-0-1/0-0-0-22380/0-0-0-22999.html
...
The courts have held that good moral character means character which measures up to the standards of average citizens of the community in which the applicant resides. Any conduct or acts which offend the accepted moral character standards of the community in which the applica nt resides should be considered, without regard to whether the applicant has been arrested or convicted.
------------

 

[baikal3]

I certainly can. In the case linked below, an applicant has his N-400 denied for receiving 16 traffic tickets between September 1956 and June 1958 (as well as premarital sex, but that's irrelevant, in this case). The judicial decision reversed the denial, stating that "traffic violations...do not constitute the incidents envisioned by Congress as detracting from a person's qualifications for citizenship."

http://mi.findacase.com/research/wfrmDocViewer.aspx/xq/fac.19600803_0000011.EMI.htm/qx

Hmm. I've read the decision and it seems clear to me that in the sentence you quoted the judge is talking about the specific facts and circumstances of that case rather than making a general statement about traffic tickets as such.
A full quote, taken in context, indicates that the judge was making a specific rather than a general statement:
"The petitioner was only sixteen years of age when he arrived in what was to him a new country with a strange culture. The traffic violations and the incident concerning the apartment perhaps reflect his difficulty in adjusting to some of the responsibilities of a mature adult, but they do not constitute the incidents envisioned by Congress as detracting from a person's qualifications for citizenship."



In an earlier paragraph the judge does make some general statements and they are saying something different:

"Traffic violations may indeed indicate lack of 'good moral character'. Fields, 'Conflicts in Naturalization Decisions,' 10 Temple L.Q. 272, 286-7 (1936); Petition of Donath, No. 8753 (D.C.N.J.1953), reported in 39 Cornell L.Q. 478(1954). However, having seen the petitioner and having considered the facts, I take the view that the violations in this case do not demonstrate disrespect for law and authority."

In any event, this is quite an old court case, from 1960. The relevant immigration laws have changed a lot since then and there could have been quite a few relevant judicial developments as well. A recent court case on point would be more convincing.

 

[Vorpal]

A traffic citation itseld if not considered as lack of GMC, however an established pattern of violating the vehicle code may be considered as such. There is no number carved in stone, which would be decisive on such matters, which makes the judgement totally subjective. It means that it's up to IO how to qualify 9 at-fault tickets in 5 years. My assumption that it may cause some issues during the interview.

A few years ago, a forum member who went by the name nyc_newbie had his N-400 denied for having 4 speeding tickets in 8 years. The IO obviously had a chip on her shoulder (search for nyc_newbie's interview experience post) and denied his application. The decision was successfully overturned on appeal.

The above was a highly abnormal situation. I highly doubt that traffic tickets (9, 19, or 29) will cause issues at the interview, especially if they are minor and non-criminal in nature.

 

[Vorpal]

In any event, this is quite an old court case, from 1960. The relevant immigration laws have changed a lot since then and there could have been quite a few relevant judicial developments as well. A recent court case on point would be more convincing.

A newer case would certainly be more convincing. However, it doesn't seem like there's been a recent court case where a N-400 denied for traffic tickets was appealed and made it all the way to court. In all honesty, the only time I've ever heard of a N-400 being denied due to traffic tickets was the previously mentioned case of nyc_newbie, and that decision was successfully overturned. Granted, this example is limited to the membership of this forum, which, in the grand scheme of things, is a very small sample of naturalization applicants.

I recall reading about a spate of denials at the Seattle DO, which took place in the 90s and resulted in a class action lawsuit by the applicants. Something to the extent of 55% of naturalization applicants were being denied for things as trivial as parking tickets. Look up Lee v. Gonzales, No. C04-449 RSL for more information. The named plaintiff in the case, Kichul Lee, was issued a fine of $152 for collecting 51 oysters on a Washington state beach, which was more oysters than allowed by state law. Lee's N-400 was denied for failing to demonstrate GMC, thus sparking the lawsuit.

What do we get from all this? The IOs are granted way too much discretion. An applicant can get denied for a minor ticket while another applicant with an actual criminal offense on their record can get approved.

 

[-me-]

A few years ago, a forum member who went by the name nyc_newbie had his N-400 denied for having 4 speeding tickets in 8 years. The IO obviously had a chip on her shoulder (search for nyc_newbie's interview experience post) and denied his application. The decision was successfully overturned on appeal.

The above was a highly abnormal situation. I highly doubt that traffic tickets (9, 19, or 29) will cause issues at the interview, especially if they are minor and non-criminal in nature.

1/2 ticket a year should have never created any issue, unless all 4 tickets were received within a few months before the interview. So that case denial was definitely a IO mistake. The discussed situation is less obvious, since 9 tickets in 5 years can harldy be considered normal unless you commute in downtown NYC daily. So, I believe it may cause an issue during the interview. If denied, can it be successfully appealed? Possibly yes, but not necesserily.

However, I would agree with you that the naturalization process is not very well formalized and relies too much on a particular IO understanding of law when it comes to grey areas.

 

[baikal3]

A newer case would certainly be more convincing. However, it doesn't seem like there's been a recent court case where a N-400 denied for traffic tickets was appealed and made it all the way to court. In all honesty, the only time I've ever heard of a N-400 being denied due to traffic tickets was the previously mentioned case of nyc_newbie, and that decision was successfully overturned. Granted, this example is limited to the membership of this forum, which, in the grand scheme of things, is a very small sample of naturalization applicants.

I recall reading about a spate of denials at the Seattle DO, which took place in the 90s and resulted in a class action lawsuit by the applicants. Something to the extent of 55% of naturalization applicants were being denied for things as trivial as parking tickets. Look up Lee v. Gonzales, No. C04-449 RSL for more information. The named plaintiff in the case, Kichul Lee, was issued a fine of $152 for collecting 51 oysters on a Washington state beach, which was more oysters than allowed by state law. Lee's N-400 was denied for failing to demonstrate GMC, thus sparking the lawsuit.

What do we get from all this? The IOs are granted way too much discretion. An applicant can get denied for a minor ticket while another applicant with an actual criminal offense on their record can get approved.

I found the nyc_newbie thread you mentioned:
http://forums.immigration.com/showt...es/page3&p=1977667&highlight=ugly#post1977667

The case described there does appear to have been an aberration: the applicant had only 4 traffic tickets total, none of them DUI-related, and only 2 tickets within the statutory period. The IO acted clearly unreasonably in denying the application, and it is surprising that the original denial ever got past the supervisor review.

Later on in the same thread Bobsmyth gives a link to the following interesting document:
http://apps.americanbar.org/intlaw/...als/immigration_naturalization/summer2005.pdf

There is an article there on pp. 10-13 by an immigration lawyer Ileana McAlary.
On p 10 she mentions that she recently had a client who had 9 traffic tickets in the last five years (presumably meaning before filing N-400), which he disclosed at the naturalization interview. The N-400 was denied on lack of GMC grounds because of those tickets. None of the tickets were DUI related but two were related to vehicle accident(s)/driving without a license. MCAlary says that she was able to reverse the denial on appeal. She does not explain at which appeal stage this reversal happened: if it was the N-336 appeal hearing at the local DO (which I sort of assume was the case) or if they actually had to file an appeal with a federal district court.

I am not quite sure what to make of that story. It does seem to indicate to me that there are no clear-cut definitive judicial decisions on the question whether ordinary traffic tickets, when present in sufficiently high number, may be used by the IO to make the lack of GMC finding. And it appears that the IOs are treating such situations on a case-by-case basis. I rather suspect that if McAlary's client had, say, 29 traffic tickets rather than 9 tickets, within the statutory period, the outcome of the appeal would have been different.

 

[Vorpal]

Later on in the same thread Bobsmyth gives a link to the following interesting document:
http://apps.americanbar.org/intlaw/...als/immigration_naturalization/summer2005.pdf

There is an article there on pp. 10-13 by an immigration lawyer Ileana McAlary.
On p 10 she mentions that she recently had a client who had 9 traffic tickets in the last five years (presumably meaning before filing N-400), which he disclosed at the naturalization interview. The N-400 was denied on lack of GMC grounds because of those tickets. None of the tickets were DUI related but two were related to vehicle accident(s)/driving without a license. MCAlary says that she was able to reverse the denial on appeal. She does not explain at which appeal stage this reversal happened: if it was the N-336 appeal hearing at the local DO (which I sort of assume was the case) or if they actually had to file an appeal with a federal district court.

I would think that it's the unlicensed operation tickets that caused the original denial. The article doesn't mention the state in which the applicant received these tickets, so it's impossible to determine the charge warranted by this offense, but it's certainly far more serious than speeding or running a stop sign. In NYS, for instance, Aggravated Unlicensed Operation is a misdemeanor. Two misdemeanors within the statutory period can certainly warrant a denial, especially if the IO chooses to err on the side of caution.

The USCIS really needs to standardize the procedure of approaching traffic violations on the N-400. I've mentioned this previously on this forum, but it's worth repeating anyway. The IO who interviewed me only wanted to know if I've ever been arrested. The IO in charge of my oath ceremony specifically instructed all oath takers not to disclose traffic tickets on the back of their oath letter, stating that she only wants to know about arrests.

A former colleague of mine, whose interview was a few months prior to mine, had a few traffic tickets that he didn't disclose. At that time, I recently became a member of this forum, so I've been reading up on whether or not to disclose traffic tickets. I suggested that he should obtain his DMV abstract and disclose his tickets at the interview. My colleague later told me that when he produced the abstract at the interview, the IO waved him off, stating that they only care about criminal citations, not minor traffic tickets.

Then we get to the case of nyc_newbie. All three applications were being processed by the same DO (NYC), yet one of the results was distinctly different. It almost seems that traffic tickets are such a minor matter to the USCIS, that they are given little (if any at all) attention during IO training, leaving it up to the IOs to figure out how to treat them. Of course, this is pure speculation on my part.