modified oath without "so help me God"

C

cmv

Registered Users (C)
I have been trying to find out what information to submit to justify a request to leave out the "so help me God" part of the Oath of Citizenship. There is a lot out there about modifications related to not wanting to bear arms, and they usually involve letters from religious leaders, but if you are an atheist, that's a bit harder to prove. I'm hoping someone here has experience and could point me to some examples or guidelines.

This is very important to me personally, as becoming a US citizen is my own individual heartfelt choice, and for once in my life I would like to have a religion-free defining moment.

Thanks in advance!

cmv

planning to send out N-400 by the end of February.
 
cmv said:
I have been trying to find out what information to submit to justify a request to leave out the "so help me God" part of the Oath of Citizenship. There is a lot out there about modifications related to not wanting to bear arms, and they usually involve letters from religious leaders, but if you are an atheist, that's a bit harder to prove. I'm hoping someone here has experience and could point me to some examples or guidelines.

This is very important to me personally, as becoming a US citizen is my own individual heartfelt choice, and for once in my life I would like to have a religion-free defining moment.

Thanks in advance!

cmv

planning to send out N-400 by the end of February.
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I heard the USCIS just tell people with such request to keep mouth shut when pthers say "So help me God" but say anything esle. There is no need for official request.

This is different form applicants who do not want to bear arms for the USA. If they do not make request and one day when they are really required to bear arm, they
can not say "I am a pacifist so I refuse to bear arms" because the government can say you promised to bear arms when necessary. So they better cover themseves
by making a special request to omit "bear arm" part of the oath. Of course, even this may not be a practical issue. Most likely it is we are way past the age of being qualified
for military service. No branch of US armed forces want us even if we wantt o serve.
 
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cmv said:
and for once in my life I would like to have a religion-free defining moment.
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I do not celebrate religion myself, but isn't religion all about symbolism (besides some philosophy) ... such as doing or not doing things on specific days. Not saying "under god" on the day of your oath qualifies as such symbolism, and I guess there is some philosophy involved too.

Anyway, was WBH said, just do not say the words you are not comfortable with. Or ask the IO during the interview.
 
Dear Cmv,

This is oath ...of the country the constitution of which guarantees very freedom you are talking about and concerned with....It has nothing to do with your belief in GOD or not. It is part of American tradition....please respect and follow this if you want to become US Citizen.
The same is American Dollar which prints “IN GOD WE TRUST”. I assume you are not writing to the US Treasury or ignoring American Money for the same reason.

Good luck....
 
You want to become an American but you oppose GOD? This country is based on self-less belief in GOD and anything patriotic, so just do you duty for one, "So help me GOD", was that hard? lol!!! Just keep your mouth shut, actually chew in a squirrel tail when it comes to that part, if you find an IO who is a stronger believer in GOD, and he decides to take you out of the ceremony, berate you and just bring hell to meet you at the USCIS. some issues aren't worth a pinch of salt...
 
DreamUSA said:

It has nothing to do with your belief in GOD or not.
Click to expand...


If the applicant is very religious but his religion is not christianity, Judaism, or Islam, it may pose a problem. Here God is God in the old testament.
If you believe in Zeus/Shiva/Buddha etc, You may say So help me Zeus/Shiva/Buddha

There is this guy called Newdow who file severak lawsuits to prevent reference to God

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Newdow
 
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cmv said:
I have been trying to find out what information to submit to justify a request to leave out the "so help me God" part of the Oath of Citizenship. There is a lot out there about modifications related to not wanting to bear arms, and they usually involve letters from religious leaders, but if you are an atheist, that's a bit harder to prove. I'm hoping someone here has experience and could point me to some examples or guidelines.

This is very important to me personally, as becoming a US citizen is my own individual heartfelt choice, and for once in my life I would like to have a religion-free defining moment.

Thanks in advance!

cmv

planning to send out N-400 by the end of February.
Click to expand...

Are you only interested in omitting the phrase "so help me God" or also the references to the willingness to bear arms? I had both modified in my oath successfully. If you are only interested in the religious invocation, you can just request it at the interview, and the IO has to grant it. I have posted a number of references regarding the bearing of arms part, and I can dig them up if you are interested in it. However, be prepared that the IO will likely not know this type of request well, since it is fairly rare and there is a lot of misinformation.
 
WBH said:
If the applicant is very religious but his religion is not christianity, Judaism, or Islam, it may pose a problem. Here God is God in the old testament.
If you believe in Zeus/Shiva/Buddha etc, You may say So help me Zeus/Shiva/Buddha

There is this guy called Newdow who file severak lawsuits to prevent reference to God

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Newdow
Click to expand...

Reference to GOD is universal and part of American tradition. As a new comer to this country, OP should respect this and she/he should not get offended. If OP believes this is not acceptable, OP should not seek US Citizenship. As i said, this is no different than USD which even have more "strong language" such as "IN GOD WE TRUST". Again, if OP finds this unacceptable, she/he should find another country for residency and citizenship.

This is a serious matter...Just imagine, if OP runs for federal office or other gov position or army post...many of which will include oath to Allegiance to US.....
 
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DreamUSA said:
Dear Cmv,

This is oath ...of the country the constitution of which guarantees very freedom you are talking about and concerned with....It has nothing to do with your belief in GOD or not. It is part of American tradition....please respect and follow this if you want to become US Citizen.
The same is American Dollar which prints “IN GOD WE TRUST”. I assume you are not writing to the US Treasury or ignoring American Money for the same reason.

Good luck....
Click to expand...

DreamUSA is dreaming or has had a little too much Kool-Aid..
'...Under God' came into the Pledge of Allegiance under Eisenhower (1954 if you must know) so this 'tradition' hasn't been around that long.
 
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DreamUSA said:
Reference to GOD is universal and part of American tradition. As a new comer to this country, OP should respect this and she/he should not get offended. If OP believes this is not acceptable, OP should not seek US Citizenship. As i said, this is no different than USD which even have more "strong language" such as "IN GOD WE TRUST". Again, if OP finds this unacceptable, she/he should find another country for residency and citizenship.

This is a serious matter...Just imagine, if OP runs for federal office or other gov position or army post...many of which will include oath to Allegiance to US.....
Click to expand...

DreamUSA, considering you had your interview less than a month ago, can I ask you a question from the 100 that you memorized but unfortunately didn't understand:

What is meant by Freedom of Religion?
 
WBH said:
If the applicant is very religious but his religion is not christianity, Judaism, or Islam, it may pose a problem. Here God is God in the old testament.
If you believe in Zeus/Shiva/Buddha etc, You may say So help me Zeus/Shiva/Buddha

There is this guy called Newdow who file severak lawsuits to prevent reference to God

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Newdow
Click to expand...

In this instance I don't think God = Jesus, so if you believe in another god, you should be OK.
 
DreamUSA said:
Reference to GOD is universal and part of American tradition. As a new comer to this country, OP should respect this and she/he should not get offended. If OP believes this is not acceptable, OP should not seek US Citizenship. As i said, this is no different than USD which even have more "strong language" such as "IN GOD WE TRUST". Again, if OP finds this unacceptable, she/he should find another country for residency and citizenship.

This is a serious matter...Just imagine, if OP runs for federal office or other gov position or army post...many of which will include oath to Allegiance to US.....
Click to expand...

(Sorry, One more...)
DreamUSA, I think you applied for and received Citizenship to the wrong country. The USA is not a Christian theocracy where everyone must abide by the Bible. If you did get citizenship by mistake and don't believe in things like freedom of religion, HERE is some additional reading material for you.
 
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GungaDin,

As WBH stated and i said, God does not need to be Christian/Muslim or Jewish...etc...it is universal...Your God could be Elvis or Budda or many gods....or none. or .yourself...

I cherish freedom of religion and separation of Religion and state.....However, this is an oath ...ceremonial event...and legal requirement

Of course, this is a democracy...you can say whichever you want ....

Just keep the following in mind:

The 1st Paragraph Declaration of Independence refers to GOD

"When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."


Also, N-400 application is not complete without ALLEGIANCE FOR CANDIDATES FOR NATURALIZATION which ends with "Help me God".

Accoding to this ruling, it can not be waived, may be they are new developments.

http://www.justice.gov/olc/oathlltr3.htm
 
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DreamUSA, please do not misinform people about their ability to take a modified oath. Your link is outdated. The IO at our naturalisation ceremony said that anyone can omit "so help me God" without a special request if so desired. This is just a bare fact. If you do not want to do it and you are not required to do it, then do NOT do it. Simple as that. Respect or disrespect have nothing to do with this.

On a side note, we become naturalised Americans not just to conform to the Judeo-Christian traditions that some claim this country was built upon, but to add part of our unique cultures and identities to the fabric of the American society. If in this process the words "so help me God" become obsolete (I personally do not see it happen), then be it.
 
WBH said:
Most likely it is we are way past the age of being qualified
for military service. No branch of US armed forces want us even if we wantt o serve.
Click to expand...

Unless there's a military conflict of such magnatude (another World War, for instance) that all able-bodied men are called into service.
 
clarification

I just want to clarify two points.

1) I don't have a problem with the "bear arms" part of the oath. I'd be perfectly willing to defend this country in any way my abilities could be used.

2) The instructions to N-400 (Guide to Naturalization) state clearly that it is possible to request to leave out these words, and that people are not required to say them if their beliefs render them unable to do so. It states that people need to write a letter and "provide documentation"

All I was asking is whether anyone who might have had experience with this could tell me what to include in such a letter/documentation.

Thanks,

cmv
 
cmv said:
I just want to clarify two points.

1) I don't have a problem with the "bear arms" part of the oath. I'd be perfectly willing to defend this country in any way my abilities could be used.

2) The instructions to N-400 (Guide to Naturalization) state clearly that it is possible to request to leave out these words, and that people are not required to say them if their beliefs render them unable to do so. It states that people need to write a letter and "provide documentation"

All I was asking is whether anyone who might have had experience with this could tell me what to include in such a letter/documentation.

Thanks,

cmv
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If you only want to modify the "so help me God" phrase, there is no additional documentation needed; the documentation only refers to the bearing arms parts. I would just include a cover letter requesting to omit the phrase from the oath and remind the IO at the interview to strike it out in the N-400 form. The oath you sign is the part that goes into the permanent record, not what you say at the ceremony, since nobody can really verify whether you said certain words or not.
 
Jackolantern said:
Being American includes the freedom to disbelieve God or to worship a different god(s). See the First Amendment.
Click to expand...

Your took these words out of my mouth (and keyboard) right when I was just about to punch them in. Nothing against any organized religion here BUT.... but I am a rampant supporter of separation of church and state. It's crucial for the long-term health of this system.
 
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