Lost Certificate of Naturalization

König

Registered Users (C)
Well, we will have to wait until 21 September and see what the next court ruling will say. I hope the court will impose a permanent injunction against the DPS.
 

baikal3

Registered Users (C)
Well, we will have to wait until 21 September and see what the next court ruling will say. I hope the court will impose a permanent injunction against the DPS.

Do you have a link to some info about this lawsuit?
I'd certainly be interested in keeping track of this story...
 

absrao

Registered Users (C)
I have been thinking about this DPS thing and tried to see their point of view (as I am reading a book about seeing others point of view :) ).

0. In almost all states and across US, drivers license (DL) is used for more than just driving on the road. Its used and accepted as verification of identity.

1. I believe after 2001 there were laws enacted (patriot act ?) or the enacted laws were interpreted to stress importance of making sure DL (hence the identity) is only valid up until the underlying document based on which DL was issued.

2. Some states (including NJ) used to issue DL only up until (expiration date) the date of expiration on the document based on which DL was issued.

3. Birth Certificates, Nat Certs and bunch of other documents do not have expiration dates - so technically Motor Vehicle Dept can issue their DL as usual.

4. But when presented with any other document that has expiration date, DL has to end on the expiration or there has to be reasonable explanation on why DL can go beyond the expiration date of the document.

5. Passport has expiration date. Hence technically, DL has to end on passport expiration date. But having place of birth in US, there is no denial that passport will be extended without issue.

6. In case of passport with place of birth other than US, there is remote chance passport may not be extended or passport has become invalid (situations where citizenship is revoked, how remote the chances may be).

7. So the real underlying document to issue passport is nat cert, consular report of birth abroad etc incase the place of birth is not US. So only sure shot way to validate the persons identity and validity of that identity is to ask for these docs.

Any holes in the explanation ?
 

dms1

Registered Users (C)
5. Passport has expiration date. Hence technically, DL has to end on passport expiration date. But having place of birth in US, there is no denial that passport will be extended without issue.

6. In case of passport with place of birth other than US, there is remote chance passport may not be extended or passport has become invalid (situations where citizenship is revoked, how remote the chances may be).

7. So the real underlying document to issue passport is nat cert, consular report of birth abroad etc incase the place of birth is not US. So only sure shot way to validate the persons identity and validity of that identity is to ask for these docs.

Any holes in the explanation ?
More holes than a piece of swiss cheese.

Whilst a passport does have an expiry date (mainly because of the photo becoming dated), the underlying citizenship does not. This is the same for a greencard and the underlying permanent residency.

Once someone is legitimately a citizen then that can never be revoked. The only time that one can be stripped of their citizenship is if it is proven to the satisfaction of a judge that they were incorrectly given the citizenship. If this was to ever happen then the judge would have the authority to confiscate that person's passport, naturalization certificate, driving licence and whatever else they wanted at the court hearing.
 

baikal3

Registered Users (C)
I have been thinking about this DPS thing and tried to see their point of view (as I am reading a book about seeing others point of view :) ).

0. In almost all states and across US, drivers license (DL) is used for more than just driving on the road. Its used and accepted as verification of identity.

1. I believe after 2001 there were laws enacted (patriot act ?) or the enacted laws were interpreted to stress importance of making sure DL (hence the identity) is only valid up until the underlying document based on which DL was issued.

2. Some states (including NJ) used to issue DL only up until (expiration date) the date of expiration on the document based on which DL was issued.

3. Birth Certificates, Nat Certs and bunch of other documents do not have expiration dates - so technically Motor Vehicle Dept can issue their DL as usual.

4. But when presented with any other document that has expiration date, DL has to end on the expiration or there has to be reasonable explanation on why DL can go beyond the expiration date of the document.

5. Passport has expiration date. Hence technically, DL has to end on passport expiration date. But having place of birth in US, there is no denial that passport will be extended without issue.

6. In case of passport with place of birth other than US, there is remote chance passport may not be extended or passport has become invalid (situations where citizenship is revoked, how remote the chances may be).

7. So the real underlying document to issue passport is nat cert, consular report of birth abroad etc incase the place of birth is not US. So only sure shot way to validate the persons identity and validity of that identity is to ask for these docs.

Any holes in the explanation ?

Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. The expiration date on immigration documents such as I-94 or an EAD is only relevant in determining the duration of legal status of non-immigrant aliens in the U.S.

Permanent residents and U.S. citizens by definition are allowed to reside in the U.S. indefinitely. The real issue is that the Texas DPS, for their own sick and unconstitutional reasons, is unwilling to accept a valid U.S. passport as a proof of U.S. citizenship.

Note that they do accept lots of other documents with expiration dates as proofs of identity, such as, for example, driver's licenses from other states. Moreover, in the case of foreign-born U.S. citizens they could, if your logic was correct, issue a driver's license for the period of the duration of the passport. However, they do not. So it is not the proof of identity that they have a problem with, it is the proof of citizenship.

Moreover, a document like a consular report of a birth abroad does not have an up to date photo of the person or that person's signature and is not really a viable proof of identity. Similarly, a naturalization certificate has a photo that may be decades old and that no longer reflects the physical appearance of the person. In many cases that's not a convincing proof of identity either.

The highly theoretical nonsense about some remote possibility that someones passport renewal might concievably be denied at some point in the future is completely irrelevant. If someone is a citizen of the United States now, they must be given all the rights associated with U.S. citizenship. A valid U.S. passport is a legal proof of U.S. citizenship issued by a competent federal government authority.

The nationality laws are the province of the U.S. government and the State Department is an agency specifically charged with implementing these laws. If the State Department issues somebody a document stating that that person is a U.S. citizen, namely a U.S. passport, the Texas DPS should not second or third-guess this judgement and should accept it at face value. The Texas DPS rule is a clear violation of the equal right guaranteed to all U.S. citizens by the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. constitution. I really hope that the bastards get creamed in court.
 

König

Registered Users (C)
3. Birth Certificates, Nat Certs and bunch of other documents do not have expiration dates - so technically Motor Vehicle Dept can issue their DL as usual.
4. But when presented with any other document that has expiration date, DL has to end on the expiration or there has to be reasonable explanation on why DL can go beyond the expiration date of the document.
The Texas DPS in this case should recognise that the licence will not be based on documents but rather on the status that these documents are supposed to prove. The documents may be expired, lost or destroyed whilst the status may continue indefinitely (just as dms1 explained in the previous post).

5. Passport has expiration date. Hence technically, DL has to end on passport expiration date. But having place of birth in US, there is no denial that passport will be extended without issue.
Here is where you major flaw in reasoning lies. The immigration status that a person is granted (including citizenship) can be proven by documents, but in no way does it depend on a document once it is already in the USCIS/Dept of State database. The document may expire (GC, passport), but the status will not. On the other hand, a citizenship may be revoked by a judge (however remote chances are), but you can still keep the physical naturalisation certificate if you hide it from the judge. Those agencies that do not verify the validity of the certificate with the USCIS database will gladly accept it and give you a licence which in reality you will not be eligible for.
 

absrao

Registered Users (C)
dms1, baikal3 -
Thanks for the comments. But I dont think TX is questioning citizenship status of the person. I have read Dept Of Motor Vehicle requirements of few states including TX. All of them talk about 'documents establishing identity' and categorize them as primary, secondary and supporting. No where do they talk about citizenship and I doubt they present themselves as questioning citizenship status of naturalized citizens. However, they seems to walk the thin line of establishing identity of a person and how far they want to go in establishing that identity - specially when depending on secondary documents (that depend on other docs to begin with) such as passport. It will be very interesting to see the arguments in court.
 

König

Registered Users (C)
But I dont think TX is questioning citizenship status of the person. I have read Dept Of Motor Vehicle requirements of few states including TX. All of them talk about 'documents establishing identity' and categorize them as primary, secondary and supporting. No where do they talk about citizenship and I doubt they present themselves as questioning citizenship status of naturalized citizens.
Here is the excerpt from the article that I referred to yesterday:
This woman told Mr. Fung that the DPS had not yet updated their website to indicate that a U.S. passport is not sufficient proof of U.S. citizenship. Mr. Fung politely asked if he could discuss this with a DPS Supervisor. He was then allowed to discuss this problem with a uniformed DPS official. That officer confirmed that a U.S. passport for a person born outside the U.S. was not sufficient proof of U.S. citizenship for issuance of a drivers license.

So, it seems that the Texas DPS indeed questions whether the US passport is a proof of US citizenship.

However, they seems to walk the thin line of establishing identity of a person and how far they want to go in establishing that identity - specially when depending on secondary documents (that depend on other docs to begin with) such as passport.
I think the majority of the DMV agencies (including the Texas DPS) will list the US passport as a primary identification document. I have yet to see an agency that lists the passport as a secondary document.
 

dms1

Registered Users (C)
It will be very interesting to see the arguments in court.
I suspect the argument will be very simple and un-sexy. They will most likely just argue that Texas DPS has no legislative power and therefore was outside its authority in stipulating these requirements.
 

absrao

Registered Users (C)
I think the majority of the DMV agencies (including the Texas DPS) will list the US passport as a primary identification document. I have yet to see an agency that lists the passport as a secondary document.
When I said 'secondary' I meant a document that is issued on the basis of some other document. For example, passport is a document issued based on other doc - such as Nat Cert or Birth Cert, hence passport isnt the source of claim.
 

König

Registered Users (C)
I was wondering what would the Texas DPS do if the US passport did not list the place of birth? It would either have to accept all passports or reject all passports. Which one would they choose?
 

baikal3

Registered Users (C)
Well, we will have to wait until 21 September and see what the next court ruling will say. I hope the court will impose a permanent injunction against the DPS.

Does anyone have any news regarding the status of that lawsuit?
 

König

Registered Users (C)
Does anyone have any news regarding the status of that lawsuit?
You know, I was trying to google it, but this time I could not even find the website that gave me the court date (21st Sept). All the websites just refer to the original January lawsuit filing. I really hope Texas will get a permanent injunction.
 

baikal3

Registered Users (C)
You know, I was trying to google it, but this time I could not even find the website that gave me the court date (21st Sept). All the websites just refer to the original January lawsuit filing. I really hope Texas will get a permanent injunction.

I did a bit of google searching and found something. Here is a link to a temporary injunction in a state court ordering Texas DPS to suspend rule 37 T.A.C. § 15.171:

http://maldef.org/assets/pdf/salazar_temporary_injunction.pdf

As I understood, Texas DPS appealed to the state court of appeals in Austin and the there is a stay of the injunction suspending rule 15.171, pending the outcome of the appleal. I found a record of the case at the appeals court website where the appeal is being considered:
http://www.3rdcoa.courts.state.tx.us/opinions/case.asp?FilingID=14536

It is a bit hard to understand exactly what's going on with the case from that page but it looks like the oral argument by the Texas DPS is scheduled for Oct 14. It also seems that on Sept 21 the opposing side has presented its oral orguments.

I also remember reading somewhere that there is a separate case against the Texas DPS pending in a federal court, filed by somebody else. Not sure what's going on there...
 

Imrahil

New Member
I got my drivers license!!

Even though I did not have my Certificate of Naturalization, after several attempts, I finally convinced the supervisor at the Richmond, TX DPS office that I was a U.S. Citizen!! She finally relented and said the papers I had (notarized certificate of search from the US District Court showing the date of my naturalization, voter registration card, college transcripts, college ID, social security card, old check stubs, court documents) were good enough for me to get my Driver's License!! Thanks for all the help!! You guys have been amazing!! I start my new job on Monday, October 5. I should be getting my replacement Certificate of Naturalization in a few more months. Thanks again for all the help!!
 
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Huracan

Registered Users (C)
Congratulations! :) It seems that perseverance and ingenuity led you to solve your problem. Thanks for bringing closure to your case in the forum.
 

malinka

New Member
Please Help with the Co N number

fedormma - I just gave the office of the US District Court Clerk a call.

I explained my situation and they could not have been more helpful. They transferred me directly to the person who deals with naturalization records, she took my full name, DOB, place of birth, approximate date of naturalization and told me to call next morning at 9:30. When I called, she recognized me (called me by my name), told me she found my record, and gave me my CoN Number and A-number over the phone. Then she said that if I will be filing the N-565 they can type up a Verification Letter with the raised seal of the US District Court stating that I am a naturalized citizen, with the naturalization date, CoN number, A-number etc, for $9. She transferred me to a guy who took my credit card info, and in two days (I am not kidding) the letter arrived in my mailbox.

The whole process was easier than renting Netflix movies or ordering on Amazon.

Very impressive.

You hear that, USCIS???

;)


Hi, I have currently receive a job offer which requires Secret clearance and therefore CoN number. I lost my certificate and it takes a long time to replace it. I came across your thread and was wondering if you can give any information how i can obtain the number. I got naturalized in Baltimore will district court help me? I am trying to reach them now, no lick so far.... please help!! thank you!
 

BigJoe5

Registered Users (C)
Hi, I have currently receive a job offer which requires Secret clearance and therefore CoN number. I lost my certificate and it takes a long time to replace it. I came across your thread and was wondering if you can give any information how i can obtain the number. I got naturalized in Baltimore will district court help me? I am trying to reach them now, no lick so far.... please help!! thank you!

Make an InfoPass appt at USCIS. Ask them to search for you based on the information that you have. Then you can at least have the information to put on forms including an N-565 for a replacement certificate.
 

Jackolantern

Registered Users (C)
CoN = certificate of naturalization
A-number = alien number or alien registration number. It is on the green card and naturalization certificate.
 

mikeandamanda

New Member
Signed up just so I can respond and help because I went through a nightmare trying to get the A number and Certificate number so that I could apply for a replacement certificate of naturalization. In any event...here is the answer which someone already posted. Ignore the balance. See below. You can get a copy of the "application" for naturalization which will have your A number and certificate number. You can then use that information to file the N-565. Your records are either with the District court in San Diego or Los Angeles. Depending on the date you were naturalized your record may be with the National Archives. The national archives told me most district courts are transferring their records to them. So I would just call them first. (951)956-2000 or (866)272-6272. They also told me its public record so you can get an "Ancestry" account and get a copy of your application there as well. Crazy! Anyways, the national archives already emailed me the application and it did have both the A number and certificate number. It was emailed to me within a day!!!! She is mailing me a certified copy for $25 which I will include with my n-565 application. USCIS is a joke and I told them they are. It's disgusting they take so long. Now waiting for the replacement certificate will take 14 months. I told them how disgusting they were. You should all call and tell them they are disgusting. Below is the information I copy and pasted straight from district courts website. I know the other poster that gave this exact information said call the court. I did and if the clerk is dumb or lazy you will get the run around. Most clerks are dumb or lazy. Call the national archives first. Good luck.

USCIS should be contacted directly for procedures on becoming naturalized. USCIS can be accessed online to find out how to apply for Naturalization and where to send an N-400 application.

The United States District Court for the Southern District of California maintains an index of all civil, criminal, miscellaneous and magistrate case filings from 1955 to present. Upon request, we can conduct a search of those indices to determine whether or not a particular individual has any district cases with reference to their name. The fee for conducting the search and providing a certified letter of search is $31.00 per name. Any information for the years prior to 1955 must be obtained at the United States District Court for the Central District of California located in Los Angeles.

Inquiries regarding naturalization certificates obtained in San Diego and Imperial counties should be directed to National Archives on-line or telephonically at (951)956-2000 or (866)272-6272.

USCIS can be accessed at telephone number 1-800-375-5283 or online for more information.
 
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