India Dual Citizenship Mega Thread (Merged)

[PIO1]

gotia - I think you are referring to the case referred in following case
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2000/20000811/nation.htm#5

It is indeed a Supreme Court decision.

However, remember the issue there was whether the person was Non Resident under then FERA, 1973 (now FEMA, 1999). It was to decide whether the appelant could hold NRE account designated under FERA and taxability of the interest earned on the NRE account.

It was not to decide residential status under Income Tax Act. The person still would have been resident under IT Act after staying in the country for 180+ days in a financial year.

Courts have to go by definition in the legislations under consideration, intent of the law and practice. In case of IT the clear rule is if you stay in India 182 days or more in a financial year you become a resident for that perticular financial year for Income Tax purpose. Resident can either be an ROR (resident and ordinarily resident) or RNOR (Resident but not ordinarily resident).

For the benefit of everyone one good link on the topic of NRI / PIO - status determination, taxability, NRE accounts etc is http://www.utibank.com/nri/nritaxation.htm

Mangal this can be added in the other thread under Finance related links

The link to this case is http://judis.nic.in/supremecourt/qrydisp.asp?tfnm=16271.

The judgment says that if a person is to be considered a resident of India on the grounds of Section 2(p)(iii)(c) of FERA "for staying with his or her spouse, such spouse being a person resident in India" then "staying" does not mean temporarily staying.

As basis stated, this definition is limited to the case where someone is staying with a spouse, and does not really cover other rules in FEMA, Tax etc.

 

[tdesai]

I just noticed that the SF CGI OCI instructions page was updated, and now states that the passport copies are to be self-attested instead of notarized. Additionally, they have more detailed requirements for photographs and signature.

Does any one have any idea as to what it means by "self-attesting" passport
copies ??

 

[SDQmer]

I applied on March 13th 2006 for whole family at CGISFO. I also get same message as you. Please post here as soon as your case goes under process.

Actually our mailing was done on Feb 3rd week and if any status changes I will post it here. Can u also do the same.

 

[SDQmer]

I applied in February 2nd week for the family in SFO. The status got updated in last week of March to "Granted" directly and then the names apperared in SF consulate website.
I have send our passports and still waiting for them to send these back. There was no communication from consulate during the complete process.

Thanks for your response. In your case, is it straight or transfer from PIO->OCI

 

[fitness99]

CGI Houston timeline

Application receipt - Last week of January 2006
Under process status - Last week of March 2006
Granted status - First week of April 2006
Email received to send the passport and PIO - April 26, 2006

The timeline is 3 months from application receipt date. Hopefully the processing time is going to improve as consulates get a handle on the OCI process. Good luck to those of you that are waiting on the OCI.

 

[astro2006]

How long it takes to cash MO at OCISF?

I applied for OCI on 3rd week of March 2006 at SF consulate office.
Today, 4/28, as I called Money Order office, they say it has not been cashed.

How long it takes to cash MO for OCI application? Any idea?

OCISF did not send me any information nor any receipt for the application?

How do you get the file number for your application? I did not get any yet.
Without the file number I think I can not check the application status from MHA.

What is the normal time for OCI processing at San Francisco consulate?

I asked you so many questions. Please answer them if you know any.

Thank you in advance,

-astro2006

 

[csc092000]

Thanks for your response. In your case, is it straight or transfer from PIO->OCI

My case was straight application. Got my citizenship only in January.

I never checked whether the MO was cashed.

 

[mangal969]

Glad to see basis and PIO1 come to a mutually satisfying agreement
Basis I have posted that link.
I guess the crux of the problem is that NRI PIO and OCI have different meanings under different acts.So technically no one is going to be completely right and no one is going to be completely wrong.
I am yet to see any special consideration been given to registered PIO's (OCI & PIO card holders) v/s non-registered PIO's.
I also want to reqest all "Newbies" to go through the other thread first

 

[PIO1]

There is an industry out there to rip off, misinform and generally hoodwink NRI/PIO/OCIs. People claiming to be "officials" or "experts" are the first ones you need to be wary of. I have yet to see a site that provides accurate information, and plenty that could really wind you in trouble. Go ahead and put these links up but there should be a strong warning to do your homework if you are going to use the information to do something serious.

Regarding the mutually satisfying agreement - I think we just mutually gave up

 

[mangal969]

I have a rather interesting question-What really affects us more-FEMA or the IT act ??

One thing i realised is that all this provision of intent of residency,180 days etc does not affect us as OCI holders.We are NRI's and that is it.Even if we settle in India on the basis of our OCI cards for the period until we adopt Indian citizenship we are NRI's.There is no way an OCI card holder can get a resident Indian status.

 

[mangal969]

Does any one have any idea as to what it means by "self-attesting" passport
copies ??

You write "This is a true copy of the original" and sign it

 

[mangal969]

After four weeks since I mailed in my daughter's application to CGI-Houston, the Online Status Inquiry form shows "Under Process". Does this mean that the application has been sent to New Delhi or are the lazy butts in Houston still sitting on it?

-Tariq

Somewhere in between

 

[gotia]

The link to this case is http://judis.nic.in/supremecourt/qrydisp.asp?tfnm=16271.

The judgment says that if a person is to be considered a resident of India on the grounds of Section 2(p)(iii)(c) of FERA "for staying with his or her spouse, such spouse being a person resident in India" then "staying" does not mean temporarily staying.

As basis stated, this definition is limited to the case where someone is staying with a spouse, and does not really cover other rules in FEMA, Tax etc.

PIO1
when same decision published in times of india it was quated as Ending the controvesy over NRI status
they intrepted it as NRI status does not chane with stay home(with factor of intend included in this case staying for treament)
if i am not missing some thing factor of intend is deciding factor if controvacy arises with any rules act over NRI status.
in above case supreme court rules against high court decision and revenue department

 

[gotia]

I have a rather interesting question-What really affects us more-FEMA or the IT act ??

One thing i realised is that all this provision of intent of residency,180 days etc does not affect us as OCI holders.We are NRI's and that is it.Even if we settle in India on the basis of our OCI cards for the period until we adopt Indian citizenship we are NRI's.There is no way an OCI card holder can get a resident Indian status.

mangal696
i am agree.
seperate act law neede to define OCI resident indian/OCI NRI status if OCI start living in india.
factor of intend included.

 

[dilipjaju]

Actually our mailing was done on Feb 3rd week and if any status changes I will post it here. Can u also do the same.

Sure, will do.

Dilip Jaju

 

[basis]

I have a rather interesting question-What really affects us more-FEMA or the IT act ??

Both of them are extremely important and affect us in their own jurisdictions.

IT Act - A resident under IT Act is liable for global income. Non-resident under the IT Act is taxable for income earned / accrued / received in India or deemed to have been earned /accrued / received in India.

There is one further classification of resident - 1. ROR (Resident and Ordinarily Resident) 2. RNOR (Resident and Not Ordinarily resident. Not Ordinarily resident). RNOR is just a transition stage to ROR.

Coming to NRI - NRI is just a subtype of non-resident. To be NRI one must first be non-resident and then a person of Indian Nationality. NRI enjoy exemptions in certain incomes - e.g. interest on NRE / FCNR accounts. One need not file IT return if the income is only from investments in India.

FEMA - FEMA definition of resident or non-resident is important in all spheres other than direct taxation. e.g. investment in share, securities, govt schemes, prov fund, type of dmat / bank accounts that can be opened, hotel charges / airfare / fees at tourist places, educational fees, holding of assets in foreign currency, acquisition / disposal of immoveable properties and so on.

One thing i realised is that all this provision of intent of residency,180 days etc does not affect us as OCI holders.We are NRI's and that is it.Even if we settle in India on the basis of our OCI cards for the period until we adopt Indian citizenship we are NRI's.There is no way an OCI card holder can get a resident Indian status.

This is not true. Provisions of FEMA viz. intent, 180 days etc DO apply to OCI card holders.

FEMA basically defines two important terms - 'Resident in India' and 'Resident Outside India'. It does not matter whether you are an Indian national / PIO / PIO card holder / OCI / Foreign National for that purpose.

As long as you satisfy intention of stay and 180 days conditions you become a resident.

NRI is just a subtype of Resident Outside India. To be a Non Resident Indian you first need to be 'resident outside India' AND then either an Indian national or Person of Indian Origin (whether you hold PIO card / OCI / none of them).

So if you settle in India with OCI card with the intent and number of days of residence that meet the test of FEMA then you are a Resident in India.

For people who wish to settle in India or are already settled in India - this is very important to understand. If you dont intend to do settle in India the life is relatively straightforward - for both IT and FEMA you are a NRI. You just need to know which things you cant do as NRI.

Real fun starts when you become resident in India.

The link http://www.utibank.com/nri/nritaxation.htm provides really useful info in this regard in one place with appropriate examples. It is correct info AFAIK. I really would like to thank the UTI Bank for such information. I would advise everyone (more so to those who would be returning to or have returned to India) to read it carefully and in entireity. It is a page with a lot of information so one needs to find quality time to appreciate the information therein and it may not happen in one sitting.

God bless you all.

 

[basis]

PIO1
when same decision published in times of india it was quated as Ending the controvesy over NRI status
they intrepted it as NRI status does not chane with stay home(with factor of intend included in this case staying for treament)
if i am not missing some thing factor of intend is deciding factor if controvacy arises with any rules act over NRI status.
in above case supreme court rules against high court decision and revenue department

gotia - Simply put

a) This case was not to define 'resident' status under IT Act. [Indian IT Act has a very objective criteria of 180+ days stay in a financial year (as in the most countries) to treat someone as resident in India for tax purpose. Intention etc does not matter for IT Act purpose.]

b) This case was to specifically deal with interpretation of Section 2(p)(iii)(c) of FERA. FERA has since been replaced by FEMA 1999. FEMA 1999 does not have similar clause in defining resident in India. They have removed it from the definition of 'resident in India' since.

However, in the course the judegement has underlined the importance of 'intention of stay' than 'duration of stay' in determining 'Resident in India' and therefore, also 'Resident Outside India' under FERA, 1973 or FEMA, 1999. And to that extent it IS indeed an important part of case law in this respect.

 

[basis]

There is an industry out there to rip off, misinform and generally hoodwink NRI/PIO/OCIs. People claiming to be "officials" or "experts" are the first ones you need to be wary of. I have yet to see a site that provides accurate information, and plenty that could really wind you in trouble. Go ahead and put these links up but there should be a strong warning to do your homework if you are going to use the information to do something serious.

Regarding the mutually satisfying agreement - I think we just mutually gave up

In my humble opinion - no one should try to do something serious just by reading even bare acts, RBI site or any official site.

a) the legal interpretation requires lot of expertise and knowledge. Trying to interprete it yourself could be harmful. One should not file IT return just by reading Income Tax official website. If it was that easy then the lawyers, accountants would have packed their bags soon after the revolution of www
b) most times it is the interplay of the various other acts, local laws, rules, case laws etc determine legal view of a case. Referring to just one site could lead to wrong conclusions. e.g. if one used the RBI site to define resident in India while filing IT return or paying wealth tax then one could be in trouble. Also a resident in India could be in trouble to buy agri land if there are specific local provisions barring it in that region,
c) the information on any site comes with a disclamour - even RBI site has one. Anyone who wants to use the information available on the web should always use their judegement, expert opinion

While the RBI will make every effort to maintain up-to-date and accurate information on this site, visitors should be aware that the RBI accepts no responsibility for the accuracy or completeness of any material contained on this site and recommends that visitors exercise their own care and judgment with respect to its use.

Links to other websites are provided to help you meet your needs for relevant and related information but the RBI is not responsible for the content of those sites.

This applies to other sites / links as well. UTI Bank, femaonline and others have clearly put similar disclamours. Even this chat forum comes with a disclamour.

The web sites started with good intentions may not have been updated with the latest information. This is a well known fact. And remember 'there is nothing called a free lunch'. Tax, investment advice does not come free.

I hope people using this chat forum are not taking serious investment decisions, immigration related decisions just by reading the poster's opinions. These just give us the pointers, views and experiences. 'The information can be used at user's risk' is the mantra of the webworld.

 

[mangal969]

I agree with basis-all this information is just a guideline.Use this information to move ahead.Do not base any decision on what we post or discuss here alone.Any (or all) of us can easily be wrong and no one of us will take any responsibility if anything goes wrong.
Of course we are posting what is true "to the best of our knowledge and belief".

On another note OCI cell of CGINY has shut down their phone line and fax line.If anyone has to make any queries (ha ha) use their general phone/fax no.

 

[Rambha]

Time Line for OCI / PIO

Sorry if I am asking a often anwered question. I did not see it in the messages I scanned through.

Is there an approximate timeline - length of wait for CGI-NY office for OCI and for PIO cards?

I am thinking of just applying for PIO card and then apply for conversion. Since I hear PIO card is issuance is much faster and clearer i.e., the kinks in the system are worked out.

This will give me the flixibility if I need to travel and OCI will be processed whenever; it won't have any impact on my travel.

Any opinions?

S. Rambha