India Dual Citizenship Mega Thread (Merged)

[PIO1]

What does it mean actually ? Is PIO illegal ? I am about to buy a property in India and take up employment in India - can I do that or not ? Is better to convert to OCI and do those things ?

Mangal , PIO and others please help.

Hi basis. PIO and OCI and almost the same - there is no problem with getting non agricultural immovable property for either, as long as it is not an airport .

There is no problem with buying ordinary commercial or residential property or taking up a job.

Good point though, there are a few areas that do not allow full investment by PIOs and OCIs, agriculture and aviation being the most notable, so one should be weary as a PIO or OCI when investing in something that is out of the ordinary (or taking a job reserved for citizens - e.g. Government posts). The article was specifically talking about aviation, and an attempt by the Govt to allow PIO investment.

The article exposed the internal cabinet level politics of the MHA - and for me, it clearly indicates that they are the culprits for the delay to OCI. At least we have the PM and MOIA on our side.

 

[PIO1]

Hi,

Does US Govt allow dual citizenship?

What is the TAX implication on dual citizenship?

Will I be taxed for the same income and property by both countries?

If I buy/sell any apartment in India, how will it be taxed?

Please send me any pointer to the TAX rule for dual citizens.

Thanks,
astro2006

As per sv2707 and Mangal...

(a) OCI is not dual citizenship according to the Constitution of India. The US state dept has not sure of the status of OCI, however the US does allow dual citizenship but frowns on it for various reasons that have been mentioned in earlier posts.

(b) Tax is not so much due to your status (CoI, NRI, PIO, OCI or Foreigner) but due to where you were resident and where you earned the income. There is a tax treaty between US and India. http://www.irs.gov/businesses/international/article/0,,id=96739,00.html which basically prevents tax payers paying double the tax. You should consult an expert though for both countries.

Capital gains tax applies to the buying and selling of properties - here is a Delhi Govt FAQ: http://incometaxdelhi.nic.in/faqot/capital.htm. Also income from rent is taxable income.

 

[PIO1]

PIO1,The MHA's observation was only in regard to FDI in the aviation sector and purely from a national security standpoint.

Basis,you can certainly buy property and take up employment with a PIO card.But you would have to report to the FRRO every 6 months (As an OIC you would not).There is nothing 'illegal' about it.But you cant open your own airlines

Correct... but it does expose the MHA and the argument they use is rubbish ... you can break the law from a national security standpoint if you are a passenger on a plane (Sept 11 is an example) ... so does this mean they should ban foreigners and PIOs taking flights? What if you are a foreign pilot? Or an aviation engineer at Mumbai International airport from United Airlines? Do they want to ban that?

You can break the law (or compromise national security) if you are a PIO and own a large commercial company that manufactures military equipment or if you own a building that is leased by the Govt Department of Civil Aviation both of which are legal to invest in. The argument they use is crazy.

Section 10 of the Citizenship Act deprives citizenship to full citizens.
From the "subsequent conduct" point of view PIO is no different from CoI. Subsection 2(a) of that same section revokes citizenship in the case of "antecendence". So what on earth are they talking about that PIO "is not absolute and can be cancelled due to antecedents or subsequent conduct." - complete @#$%!

If the MHA are using such arguments in cabinet over aviation, my guess is that they would have used similar arguments to constrain and stall OCI. We now know that the PM, Consulates, MEA, and MOIA have all been happy to get it running, but guess which department we are waiting for? The MHA. Connect the dots

 

[qwert97]

Has anybody on this forum received an OCI card or have received a notification about the approval of OCI?

 

[atlantathrasher]

yes, but the media keep repeating that it is "Dual Citizenship". no body seems to understad the implications of this with respect to consular protection etc. If the Indian govt is not sure of what it is giving out then what can we say about the public??!! Its high time the Indian embassies issued some clarifications that this is just a glorified greencard but not a nationality.

 

[PIO1]

yes, but the media keep repeating that it is "Dual Citizenship". no body seems to understad the implications of this with respect to consular protection etc. If the Indian govt is not sure of what it is giving out then what can we say about the public??!! Its high time the Indian embassies issued some clarifications that this is just a glorified greencard but not a nationality.

The usual suspects, the MHA will not give OCI to countries that do not allow Dual Citizenship. They have told the UK govt that this is nationality. So if you are Austrian etc, you can not get OCI (The Indian Embassy in Austria and MHA will not accept your application). This is my point - the MHA has no clue and they are the ones responsible for the confusion.

This is from the MHA:

The Constitution of India does not allow holding Indian citizenship and citizenship of a foreign country simultaneously. Based on the recommendation of the High Level committee on Indian Diaspora, the Government of India decided to grant Overseas Citizenship of India (OCI) commonly known as ‘Dual Citizenship’.

I.e. you can't have dual citizenship, but we will call this dual citizenship because that's what you want to call it. [I would really like to meet the person who wrote this face to face ]

An open letter to GoI re OCI from a previous post: http://www.immigrationportal.com/showthread.php?p=1304644&highlight=open+letter#post1304644

 

[PIO1]

Has anybody on this forum received an OCI card or have received a notification about the approval of OCI?

I know of only two people who received them at the PBD using the PM's personal InkJet printer

Mangal I think mentioned that 380 are in the mail. Probably the people who slipped something in the application form.

 

[basis]

Thanks all for the clarification -

Can you anyone answer followings -

1. Is a PIO able to contribute to PF, pension schemes in India when employed in India ?

2. Does one have to do any other process / special documentation other than PIO / OCI card to take up job in India.

3. Can a PIO / OCI repay loans including housing loan out of Indian salary?

4. Can a PIO (resident in India) deal in Shares / securities in India ?

5. Can a PIO / OCI work as a contractor / frelancer in India ?

 

[N704HK]

Pilot jobs for pio/oci

Can a pio card holder take up employment as a co pilot with any airlines in India....Govt of India allows only Indian citizen to work as co pilots.

Thanks

 

[mangal969]

Can a pio card holder take up employment as a co pilot with any airlines in India....Govt of India allows only Indian citizen to work as co pilots.
Best you contact the airlines themselves.If the government allows only Indian citizens,then neither a PIO card nor an OIC card will allow you to get the job.
Thanks

 

[mangal969]

Has anybody on this forum received an OCI card or have received a notification about the approval of OCI?

I talked to the people at CGI NY.There are no plans to issue a letter of approval.If you are approved you will get your OCI card by mail.Then you go/mail your passport for U visa stamping.

 

[gaurav2005]

File Number

When we filled PartA, we got the reference number. How do we get the File Number ? I sent the applications by FEDEX overnight and they have been received the next day.

Is the file number is something they send by a separate letter ?

 

[mangal969]

There is only the reference number for us (According to CGI NY).They are not going to send us anything other than the OCI card or letter of rejection.If your asking from the point of view of the Online status application, I don't think i would bother much for that.

 

[PIO1]

Can a pio card holder take up employment as a co pilot with any airlines in India....Govt of India allows only Indian citizen to work as co pilots.

Thanks

N704HK, basis, There is a lack of clarity about what you can and can't do as an OCI/PIO. Air India for example won't employ you in the cabin crew unless you have an Indian Passport - this would exclude an OCI or PIO. Wherever there is a requirement for citizenship, this means an OCI and PIO holder is excluded by default, unless the govt specifically allows it. Sometimes it may exclude NRIs. In terms of doing business, investing in general funds, taking up private jobs, this seems OK. But what if that fund invests in Airlines? What if there are rules about a pension fund that restricts it to citizens?

India is not really designed for non-Indian citizens, and this is the problem. I mentioned that I could not even get a gas cylinder without a ration card (reserved for Citizens).

I recommend you take up each situation separately, and investigate.

 

[atlantathrasher]

PIO1,
This whole OCI plan is a bad joke being played at our expense. I feel that we are in for a lot of confusion due to lack of proper legal status for OCI. The issues raised by others regarding employment is a point. If the powers to be dont have a clue of what they are dishing out then it is really sad. and if it is a nationality as told to UK govt then why are we not getting an OCI passport which would be in lines of the British OCI scheme??? why need a VISA sticker??I for one am going to get clarifications from my embassy in Sydney before applying.

 

[mangal969]

N704HK, basis, There is a lack of clarity about what you can and can't do as an OCI/PIO. Air India for example won't employ you in the cabin crew unless you have an Indian Passport - this would exclude an OCI or PIO. Wherever there is a requirement for citizenship, this means an OCI and PIO holder is excluded by default, unless the govt specifically allows it. Sometimes it may exclude NRIs. In terms of doing business, investing in general funds, taking up private jobs, this seems OK. But what if that fund invests in Airlines? What if there are rules about a pension fund that restricts it to citizens?

India is not really designed for non-Indian citizens, and this is the problem. I mentioned that I could not even get a gas cylinder without a ration card (reserved for Citizens).

I recommend you take up each situation separately, and investigate.

PIO1,Even if the funds do invest in airlines it is ok because the issue is of ownership of airlines.If the fund is made exclusively for NRI's/PIO's/OCI's and managed by an NRi/OCI/PIO they pick up 50.1% of an airline then it's a problem.
As a general rule of thumb whatever is applicable to NRI's is applicable to OIC's.Whatever is open exclusively to Indian citizens is closed to us.

 

[basis]

Someone who is in India on working PIO has answered the questions on another board. A lot of such info needs to be shared by those in India on PIO and after some time OCI.

For the benefit of everyone I am reproducing the answers. We need ground realities and not just comments that would create more apprehensions / fears or false confidence for people considering PIO / OCI for moving to India -

here are the answers.

1. taxes - you pay taxes in either country , courtsey the double taxation treaties between both countries. Where you pay it depends on where you spend most of your time in that purticular year.

2. PF & Pension in india- yes , you do contribute. remember, you are a RESIDENT in india for all practical purposes. So all these things as well as other similar ones work exactly the way they did while you were a part of the indian system

3. No, just PIO card is enough, you need no additional documents to take up a job in india. however as a pio card holder you need to register with FRRO if your stay is more than 6 months.

4. Loans- Afraid I really do not know about this.

5. OCI - i am evaluating the pros and cons, intend to go slow at the moment. Can you share your views on pros and cons of PIO vs OCI please?

so far so good.

as imentioned in my earlier post, as long as you earn in india you are considered a resident for banking purpose, you can open normal bank accounts.

on the PIS investment scheme, the guys have confirmed nothing need to be done, i can continue as it is.

real estate- yes you can buy and own and sell property like any one else, except for agriculture land.

In fact the only issue I have experienced so far is you might find it difficult to get a bank loan/credit card as you are 1) a foreigner 2) have stayed in india for less than 6 months. Once your stay is more than 6 months these should be ok i guess, that is what the bankers say. So, if any of you guys are planning to move in as a pio, remember to have enough to buy your car on down payment! And the house can wait for a few months..!



cheers..

 

[PIO1]

baisis, this information is useful from an indicative point of view, but not 100% accurate. I would like to see some govt dept like MOIA clarify where you can and can not work. What about nationalised banks and financial institutions - where the employer is ultimately Govt of India? Airline industry is one we know of.

Many countries have restrictions on a foreigner having a controlling interest in a company. India has restrictions on total foreign ownership - these are two different things, and for sure, could cause limitations on investment funds and trusts.

In terms of NRI being the same as PIO/OCI, this is true for most property, immovable property and to some extent even for agricultural property. But not for other things. An NRI can become a full CoI by just declaring residency in India. Also restrictions on jobs for Foreigners/PIOs/OCIs does not apply to NRIs.

So basically, watch out when you generalise as to what you can and can't do - there is no straight forward answer, and there is lack of clarity.

Just to give you an idea, I have a handful of friends I am in touch with in India - lets pick up a few of them. One works for a military equipment supplier (might have some secret information), another for a nationalised bank, one for a Govt owned insurance company, and one teaches at a Govt university. The other is a Doctor, who works privately but sometimes provides vacinations at local schools. Based on the information I have, I do not think any of these jobs would be open to PIOs or OCIs. Sure there are plenty of others who's jobs I could probably be allowed to perform - but the point is, that it is not a given.

 

[basis]

Agreed PIO1.

That's the very reason I would say that people who are already there can share the ground realities. These people may have consulted MHA, MOIA authorities, other consultants etc.

In case of what jobs one could do and one could not as PIO or OIC - I think the only restriction is no public sector jobs. Any entity owned even indirectly by GOI - the OCI / PIO / foreigners cannot work without special permission.

In your example the doctor may not want to go for vaccination and just stay limited to pvt practice. Other than that all others cannot work as an employee of the firm. I am not so sure abt the military supplier - unless it is govt owned (directly / indirectly) the PIO / OCI should be able to work. Atleast in no law it is specified that they cannot work.

 

[jenimmi]

Someone who is in India on working PIO has answered the questions on another board. A lot of such info needs to be shared by those in India on PIO and after some time OCI.

For the benefit of everyone I am reproducing the answers. We need ground realities and not just comments that would create more apprehensions / fears or false confidence for people considering PIO / OCI for moving to India -

here are the answers.....

Thanks basis for the info. I'm also trying to research the experience of PIOs who are already actually living in India. Would you be able to tell us which website / board has a similar thread, where you got this info from? Thanks.