India Dual Citizenship Mega Thread (Merged)
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Actually, this is something I feel strongly about. My Father attempted a return to India years back. The level of corruption there is something that debilitates India's prosperity and turns citizens into NRIs!Hotdiggety said:
This particular issue concerned me the other day:
http://www.immihelp.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12450
Returned NRIs/PIOs/OCIs find themselves in a different socio-economic class, and rather than being an occasional nuisance, corruption becomes a modus operandi with the people they deal with. I think Indian businessmen have the same experience.
NRIs and PIOs are in a unique position to fix things if we stick together ... lets do something positive! Here is a plan for us NRIs: (1) Full Dual citizenship, (2) Free investment for NRIs enabling development of rural infrastructure etc (3) Reform of bureaucracy and end of corruption as a Modus Operandi. There is no reason why we can hit all three at once.
The good thing about Hotdigety's article was how the news network Aaj Tak fearlessly exposed corruption. 20 years ago this was unheard of. It takes guts. Lets encourage the outing of corrupt officials through a web site, forum or some means (legally, of course).
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Thats right, but isn't a member of House of representatives in US similar to an MP in india? Also did you see a response that someone wants to give up his US citizenship because this guy was corrupt.HVN400 said:Not to quibble, but I think you are talking about Congressman Duke Cunningham (R) from California. A member of the House of Representatives, not a Senator
Hotdiggety
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hipka said:
Cunningham is not the norm in the United States. What those Indian MPs did, IS the norm in India. Cunningham will go to jail for the rest of his life. The Indian MPs will get, at best, a slap on the wrist. Corruption is not the norm in America, or Canada, or the UK. It IS considered perfectly normal, even socially acceptable, in India.
And we're not THINKING about giving up our Indian citizenship because of corruption. Most of us have ALREADY given up our Indian citizenship because of corruption.
An MP in India can hold executive postitions (such as a ministry or even PM).hipka said:
And as per hotdiggety, I too know many who left because of corruption. Years ago my father returned to India to settle and was raided by corrupt govt officials wanting a large bribe - as we were setting up a business, and our funds were limited. We did nothing wrong. They held us all in our home until we paid. How many times have you been locked in your house had guns pointed at your children, by corrupt IRS or FBI officers demanding you pay them half your life's earnings or they might "find" something on you? Don't compare the two countries - I have seen it myself. We left soon after that. If you don't think corruption is endemic in India either you are blind or are a corrupt official yourself.
It's easy to want to leave, and I don't blame those who do. But why should we keep doing this? All I am saying is let us NRIs/PIOs/CoIs stick together and fight it!
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Your sentiment is well taken.Corruption exists in India as well the US.Only thing is that corruption is restricted to the higher echilons of power in the US.The corruption is restricted to defense contracts,oil deals,government contracts etc.It's not like the US is corruption free-Remember Enron,the Philadelphia mayor's office,DeLay,Frist etc ?Corruption in india,unfortunately,is now a way of life.Everyone knows that they cannot get the work done without money and no one wants trouble so they pay upfront.
But lets be honest here the Indian politik and bureaucracy are a bunch of illiterate liars with a short term memory disorder that doesn't allow them to think straight.They just want to collect money,without knowing or understanding the responsibilities of their post.
The "revolution" has to begin at the level of the Indian Citizen.NRI's and PIO's can do nothing but stand by and support.There has to be enough of civic awarness and public accountability for anything concrete to happen.But i dont see that happening anytime soon.
What was also disappointing (Going back to our main topic) is the announcement by the Chicago consul that they will start OIC applications in Jan.If the GoI has declared the process open what right does he have to hold it off for a month ? Or is the GoI so unprepared that they just threw it open first (thanks to pressure) and decided to work later ?
But lets be honest here the Indian politik and bureaucracy are a bunch of illiterate liars with a short term memory disorder that doesn't allow them to think straight.They just want to collect money,without knowing or understanding the responsibilities of their post.
The "revolution" has to begin at the level of the Indian Citizen.NRI's and PIO's can do nothing but stand by and support.There has to be enough of civic awarness and public accountability for anything concrete to happen.But i dont see that happening anytime soon.
What was also disappointing (Going back to our main topic) is the announcement by the Chicago consul that they will start OIC applications in Jan.If the GoI has declared the process open what right does he have to hold it off for a month ? Or is the GoI so unprepared that they just threw it open first (thanks to pressure) and decided to work later ?
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PIO1 said:
"Dual Citizenship" is just a governmental misnomer to misguide gullible PIO's.It isnt really corruption.
Unfortunately the wheels of government turn slowly.I cant see much to do in getting the US (or other country) based consulates to start the process sooner.We can vent our frustration by e-mailing calling etc but i dont think that will work.They will just pass the balme on to New Delhi and no one there will respond.If they want to start in Jan they will start in Jan.
My letter to the PM:
Sir,
I am sorry to inform you that your government is the most pathetic in my living history.Never have i seen a government in so much disarray.Around half your ministers have resigned due to corruption related charges and a few more are possibly out.You have made the OIC meaningless and reduced it to a joke.You just build castles in the sky (PIO universities) without complete implementation of previously announced programmes.Please get your act together.
Sincerely,
Sir,
I am sorry to inform you that your government is the most pathetic in my living history.Never have i seen a government in so much disarray.Around half your ministers have resigned due to corruption related charges and a few more are possibly out.You have made the OIC meaningless and reduced it to a joke.You just build castles in the sky (PIO universities) without complete implementation of previously announced programmes.Please get your act together.
Sincerely,
addendum:
I said some bad things about the PIO University, that I should probably retract ...
I spoke to a Malaysian of Indian origin. Turns out University places in Malaysia tend to be reserved for ethnic Malays - so they have nowhere to go except abroad.
The PM is in Malaysia and some PIOs must have raised this issue.
So ... well done PM. Good luck in making this work.
This PIO university thing is a half baked idea that will go nowhere. First, I do not think that PIOs should be singled out to have their own university. This is too discriminatory, and I would not my kids being treated as precious, and above the ordinary ... what sort of freaks would you get out of such a place? I think it would cause resentment in the general population also.
Also, if you want to give your kids Indian education or values, wouldn't you do it when they are a bit younger, and not when they are 18 -23 year old adults - already established in their ways?
Who is it who is telling the PM these things anyway? Because he is certainly not listening to us or our letters. And I talk to a good cross section of PIOs and have never heard of the PIO university raised (PIO schools - maybe). If you can afford it, the big cities in India have progresive schools that not only have NRIs but locals too.
Why can't we just treat NRIs, PIOs, OCIs, CoI equally, and start from there? That would be a great first step.
I said some bad things about the PIO University, that I should probably retract ...
I spoke to a Malaysian of Indian origin. Turns out University places in Malaysia tend to be reserved for ethnic Malays - so they have nowhere to go except abroad.
The PM is in Malaysia and some PIOs must have raised this issue.
So ... well done PM. Good luck in making this work.
This PIO university thing is a half baked idea that will go nowhere. First, I do not think that PIOs should be singled out to have their own university. This is too discriminatory, and I would not my kids being treated as precious, and above the ordinary ... what sort of freaks would you get out of such a place? I think it would cause resentment in the general population also.
Also, if you want to give your kids Indian education or values, wouldn't you do it when they are a bit younger, and not when they are 18 -23 year old adults - already established in their ways?
Who is it who is telling the PM these things anyway? Because he is certainly not listening to us or our letters. And I talk to a good cross section of PIOs and have never heard of the PIO university raised (PIO schools - maybe). If you can afford it, the big cities in India have progresive schools that not only have NRIs but locals too.
Why can't we just treat NRIs, PIOs, OCIs, CoI equally, and start from there? That would be a great first step.
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Corruption IS the norm in most countries. The difference is that it is not easy for lower level officials in countries like the US,UK etc. to be corrupt. You have to be really well connected to get away. Cunningham was a fool to get caught so easily. If you have given up your citizenship because of corruption then I would say that you are getting very emotional. You have to understand that corruption at lower levels can be easily removed by changing the system. Ex. Indian raiways ticket system: during 1970's it used to be a common practice to bribe the clerk and get a ticket in any train you want. In 2005 when I travelled recently from hyd. to b'lore by train, it was fully booked. I registered online in the waiting list and got the tickets a couple days before the journey without giving a single paisa extra.Hotdiggety said:
Cool down people we are drifting away from main topic. Anyway for those who gave up Indian Citizenship did not do that due to corruption. If that was true then why are they bothered about dual citizenship.
Let's be realistic. Corruption is there everywhere in the world. There are tolerance levels. In countries like India it is beyond tolerance level (but as someone said things are improving albeit at a very low pace - If someone can travel from one rly stn to another without bribing we are feeling triumphant.....).
So there are two sides and multiple facets to this topic. Let's focus right now on how to get this govt deliver OCI and next the real dual citizenship. If we drift that will make them happy.......they are waiting for it. This is the only forum which is trying to do things in its own capacity for millions of Indians ....let it continue in a focussed manner.
Let's be realistic. Corruption is there everywhere in the world. There are tolerance levels. In countries like India it is beyond tolerance level (but as someone said things are improving albeit at a very low pace - If someone can travel from one rly stn to another without bribing we are feeling triumphant.....).
So there are two sides and multiple facets to this topic. Let's focus right now on how to get this govt deliver OCI and next the real dual citizenship. If we drift that will make them happy.......they are waiting for it. This is the only forum which is trying to do things in its own capacity for millions of Indians ....let it continue in a focussed manner.
Hotdiggety
Registered Users (C)
It seems that it would only be slightly facetious to say that the fastest way to get dual citizenship would have been to sprinkle a few lakhs of rupees among the right politicians, and bingo, the constitution would have been changed within a month. No more hassles, and no more ridiculous government schemes that never seem to get implemented.
If everything else is for sale in India, why not this too?
If everything else is for sale in India, why not this too?
Hotdiggety said:
Point taken but would you really want to spend lakhs of rupees for getting dual citizenship ??If yes then why ??
And on the flip side if the government cant manage the OIC scheme do you really think they will be able to manage a true dual citizenship ??
and btw you can still sprinkle the money and get DC.When you have the money,it's never too late
http://sify.com/news/othernews/fullstory.php?id=14047435
NRIs likely to be given voting rights soon
Tuesday, 13 December , 2005, 22:33
New Delhi: The Government on Tuesday indicated that Non-Resident Indians (NRIs) could get voting rights.
”From all angles, we are getting ready for that but ultimately a decision has to be taken in the Cabinet,” Minister of State for Overseas Indians Affairs Oscar Fernandes told NDTV.
He said "things are on the right track and there is a possibility that it will happen".
On the dual citizenship issue, he said a decision on it has been taken in the past one year and the first dual citizenship certificate would be given by Prime Minsiter Manmohan Singh on January 7.
NRIs likely to be given voting rights soon
Tuesday, 13 December , 2005, 22:33
New Delhi: The Government on Tuesday indicated that Non-Resident Indians (NRIs) could get voting rights.
”From all angles, we are getting ready for that but ultimately a decision has to be taken in the Cabinet,” Minister of State for Overseas Indians Affairs Oscar Fernandes told NDTV.
He said "things are on the right track and there is a possibility that it will happen".
On the dual citizenship issue, he said a decision on it has been taken in the past one year and the first dual citizenship certificate would be given by Prime Minsiter Manmohan Singh on January 7.
basis said:
Funny you should say this. I wanted to get a seat on an unreserved 5 am inter city train (on a daily basis), however no matter how early I got to the train, all the seats were reserved with playing cards... one day I lifted one of the playing cards ... turn a long story short, the railway police and train guards were all on the $$$ and I never got a seat! I guess I did get to one railway station to another without paying a bribe, but it was by sitting on the floor.
Anyway regarding the relationship between this and OCI - on a previous link there was discussion of how you need to $$$ to get 6 months registration from the police as a foreigner/PIO.
My question is how is this Scam allowed to continue? Why doesn't a single MP ask the PM "why are you calling this Dual Citizenship when it is not" Answer: (a) BJP started this scam (b) Question time in the parliament is on the take and only questions authorised with $$$ get asked. Proof? Hotdiggety's article.
I attended the last night's presentation in Sunnyvale by MOIA on pravasi bharatiya divas 2006. Joint and Deputy secretaries from the ministry were the speakers. Also present was an official from the San Fransico counslate.
Here are the excerpts from the question/answer session on OCI
The program has been launched and you can submit the application online and will have to download a portion of the application and sent to local conslate. (I have not checked this out myself)
San Francisco conslate will soon start accepting applications. The website in this regard will be updated within a WEEK!
However, no certificates will be issued until PM ceremonially issues the first certificate on Jan 7th in Hydrabad.
The dual citizenship will contain a U visa sticker for the foreign passport and a cerificate that looks like a passport.
The MOIA's ultimate goal is to treat dual citizens on par with NRIs/Indian citizens and will keep working with other entities of the govt. towords this goal. This was the response for the questions such as restrictions on agricultural land and 100% investments in all sectors etc.,
Here are the excerpts from the question/answer session on OCI
The program has been launched and you can submit the application online and will have to download a portion of the application and sent to local conslate. (I have not checked this out myself)
San Francisco conslate will soon start accepting applications. The website in this regard will be updated within a WEEK!
However, no certificates will be issued until PM ceremonially issues the first certificate on Jan 7th in Hydrabad.
The dual citizenship will contain a U visa sticker for the foreign passport and a cerificate that looks like a passport.
The MOIA's ultimate goal is to treat dual citizens on par with NRIs/Indian citizens and will keep working with other entities of the govt. towords this goal. This was the response for the questions such as restrictions on agricultural land and 100% investments in all sectors etc.,
Sprinkle 50,000 and we can have the question asked "PM, Why have you been misleading the people?"mangal969 said:Point taken but would you really want to spend lakhs of rupees for getting dual citizenship ??If yes then why ??
And on the flip side if the government cant manage the OIC scheme do you really think they will be able to manage a true dual citizenship ??
and btw you can still sprinkle the money and get DC.When you have the money,it's never too late
True dual citizenship, like almost everything that is wrong with Indian Bureaucracy can easily be implemented by the Govt butting out. Amend Article 9, and remove all the anti-dual citizenship facets of the Citizenship Act. When the next Indian get naturalised, just don't cut up their passport! No smartcard, no visa stamp required, no fees, in fact, you don't even need to visit the consulate. This is how every dual citizenship country in the world implements it! I'll write the process. The title is "how to do nothing".
If Power corrupts, then just take away their powers.
Hotdiggety
Registered Users (C)
mangal969 said:Point taken but would you really want to spend lakhs of rupees for getting dual citizenship ??If yes then why ??
And on the flip side if the government cant manage the OIC scheme do you really think they will be able to manage a true dual citizenship ??
and btw you can still sprinkle the money and get DC.When you have the money,it's never too late
I was thinking more along the lines of taking up a collection and sending in an offer. So much money for this result.
Seriously, though, I'm personally somewhat ambivalent about this whole dual citizenship thing. About 12 years ago, my two small children and I were almost deported from Delhi for a minor date problem with our tourist visas, which was entirely the fault of the consulate in Toronto. I noticed the problem before I left, and asked the consulate to correct it. They refused, and pooh-poohed the issue. At the airport in Delhi, we were singled out, threatened with deportation, and detained for quite a while after all the other passengers were long gone. They acted like I'd got a visa not from an Indian consulate, but from some other country. Finally, we were given 24-hour visas to allow us to go to the FRRO on Ring Road, to get fresh visas all over again, which I did.
My experience there, plus others I've had while in India, frankly make my stomach turn at the thought of going there again. I've only been there once since then, because I had to. Life is too short to put up with crap. But I can't deny my origins totally. I keep wondering whether they've changed over there, which is why I visit this board. It would appear that they haven't.
GeeC said:
If they will start in a week,it will be a bit of good news (though Chicago will start in Jan 1st week and Washington and New York are asleep).I hope you guys made them uncomfortable with forceful questions on PIO.Of course they arent coming back anytime soon so we cant hold them to their word.