India Dual Citizenship Mega Thread (Merged)
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I just wanted to step in and ask something-Why this fixation on being a "dual national" ? What benefit are you going to extract from dual nationality that you will not get from OCI ?
The only one i could think of is voting rights....But personally i prefer US consular protection to being able to cast a ballot in India.
The other thing was agricultural land...If Amitabh Bachchan can be denied access to farmland how on earth even as a citizen can i be granted ?And what would i do with this land ? I am not a farmer !
The only one i could think of is voting rights....But personally i prefer US consular protection to being able to cast a ballot in India.
The other thing was agricultural land...If Amitabh Bachchan can be denied access to farmland how on earth even as a citizen can i be granted ?And what would i do with this land ? I am not a farmer !
Oci info pls.
Hi All..
I am planning to apply for OCI for my 2 yr. daughter....got few questions..pls. do help out..
1. do parents have to singn under signature in Part A application form of my daughter or do i have to get daughters finger print ??if so which hand/finger.
2... do i have to submit photo copies of exclosures (passport , birth certiciate photocopies) also in Duplicate or just part A and B application forms in duplicate is enough.
3.. Here am getting photos in 2 x 2inch passport ..is that size ok?? i do see they mention 35x35mm..
4. if i move to india after applying OCI as i got pio card currently...can i collect it in india ? or is there any process for that?
Thanks in advance...
Madhu
Hi All..
I am planning to apply for OCI for my 2 yr. daughter....got few questions..pls. do help out..
1. do parents have to singn under signature in Part A application form of my daughter or do i have to get daughters finger print ??if so which hand/finger.
2... do i have to submit photo copies of exclosures (passport , birth certiciate photocopies) also in Duplicate or just part A and B application forms in duplicate is enough.
3.. Here am getting photos in 2 x 2inch passport ..is that size ok?? i do see they mention 35x35mm..
4. if i move to india after applying OCI as i got pio card currently...can i collect it in india ? or is there any process for that?
Thanks in advance...
Madhu
mangal969 said:
mangal969,
Obviously the differences between OCI and Indian citizenship matter more for some people than for others.
Off the top of my head, here are several more differences besides voting and farmland.
(1) OCI has no right to work in government jobs in India, but Indian citizen does. There might also be other professions which require Indian citizenship.
(2) Indian citizenship is a constitutionally guaranteed right, but OCI is a privilege and not a right, and may be removed at any time for arbitrary reasons.
(3) Certain regions of India are off-limits to OCI.
(4) Child of an Indian citizen has the right to Indian citizenship, but child of OCI holder does not.
(5) Holder of OCI is treated as NRI for educational and economic matters, and not as resident Indian citizen.
(6) Holder of OCI cannot hold public office.
(7) Indian citizen may reside indefinitely in India without further paperwork, but OCI holder is required to keep a current foreign passport.
(8) Indian citizen residing abroad can use the tax treaty with the other country, OCI holder cannot.
(9) In case of child custody dispute, an Indian citizen parent is in a better position to argue that Indian law should apply and the child should reside in India, than an OCI holder.
I think some of those differences are more likely to affect you than the right US consular protection. In particular, I already know someone affected by (1) above, a scientist who would have trouble getting a job in India because most research in the field is in government labs.
If you don't care to vote in India, you are probably one of those people for whom Indian citizenship matters less.
Hope this clarifies,
Tamtom
Hotdiggety
Registered Users (C)
Exactly. This whole OCI scheme was based on a demand by ex-Indian-citizens living abroad for dual citizenship with India, not for a visa without an expiry date, which is what they've ended up getting after 10 years of waffling. If such a visa had been the issue, it wouldn't have taken 10 years to come up with it.
Note that the Indian government constantly refers to this visa as dual citizenship, when in reality it isn't. That's what's taken them 10 years - finding a way of fooling people into thinking that they've got the real thing, when in fact they haven't. Judging by the number of posters on this board who seem to think they're getting dual citizenship, the Indian government appears to have succeeded at least partially in this fraud.
If this kind of a visa serves your purposes, fine. However, if real dual citizenship is what you want, then you shouldn't stay quiet about it. There is too much of a "ji huzoor, whatever you say" attitude among our people, when it comes to the Indian government. You need to point this fraud out at every opportunity you get, and make as much of a fuss as possible, or the Indian government will never attempt to change the Constitution to grant you the real thing.
Note that the Indian government constantly refers to this visa as dual citizenship, when in reality it isn't. That's what's taken them 10 years - finding a way of fooling people into thinking that they've got the real thing, when in fact they haven't. Judging by the number of posters on this board who seem to think they're getting dual citizenship, the Indian government appears to have succeeded at least partially in this fraud.
If this kind of a visa serves your purposes, fine. However, if real dual citizenship is what you want, then you shouldn't stay quiet about it. There is too much of a "ji huzoor, whatever you say" attitude among our people, when it comes to the Indian government. You need to point this fraud out at every opportunity you get, and make as much of a fuss as possible, or the Indian government will never attempt to change the Constitution to grant you the real thing.
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tamtom said:
I agree with most of what you say.But for the general population OCI is sufficient without having the rigmorales of dual citizenship and consequent legal issues of consular protection.
There are also some of the points you mentioned that I need to clarify (corresponding to your points):
2.The act granting OCI and Indian citizenship are the same.Technically if OCI is vulnerable as you say so is Indian citizenship.I know citizenship is a constitutionally garunteed right but if they enter some weird amendment as a prerequisite for citizenship (say 5 years of military service) you can be denied Indian citizenship as well (This is of course a long shot).
3.For visiting PAP/RAP areas Indian citizens too need to apply to the army for a permit.I dont think there are any other areas that OCI's are denied access to.
4.A child of an OCI can claim Indian citizenship by birth if he fulfils the provisions of the Citizenship act.If a person is eligible for OCI (in the current generation atleast) his child would also be eligible for OCI.The naturalisation route is always open.
7.An Indian citizen does need to maintain an Indian passport
.BUt this problem would also exist if there was dual citizenship as well.This is not an OCI specific problem8.An OCI holder can avail of the tax treaties just as an Indian citizen can.
In my personal opinion OCI is suitable for a majority of the PIO population.It offers substantial benefits and also makes the path to full Indian citizenship easier.
As far as the voting issue goes,well, i would prefer to be a voice in my country of residence.It would be unfair to the citizens of India if a person sitting in another country can be an influence to decisions that affect him on a daily basis.This of course is my opinion.If i want to vote in India I will give up my foreign citizenship and become a full Indian citizen first.
As a footnote I would like to mention that OCI is a roll back from the previously promised dual citizenship and is probably the result of some babu flexing his muscles.But in the final analysis OCI is a step forward and is not bad.
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#7you can use OCI visa(life long) on expired foreign passport for in and out of india.mangal969 said:I agree with most of what you say.But for the general population OCI is sufficient without having the rigmorales of dual citizenship and consequent legal issues of consular protection.
There are also some of the points you mentioned that I need to clarify (corresponding to your points):
2.The act granting OCI and Indian citizenship are the same.Technically if OCI is vulnerable as you say so is Indian citizenship.I know citizenship is a constitutionally garunteed right but if they enter some weird amendment as a prerequisite for citizenship (say 5 years of military service) you can be denied Indian citizenship as well (This is of course a long shot).
3.For visiting PAP/RAP areas Indian citizens too need to apply to the army for a permit.I dont think there are any other areas that OCI's are denied access t
4.A child of an OCI can claim Indian citizenship by birth if he fulfils the provisions of the Citizenship act.If a person is eligible for OCI (in the current generation atleast) his child would also be eligible for OCI.The naturalisation route is always open.
7.An Indian citizen does need to maintain an Indian passport
8.An OCI holder can avail of the tax treaties just as an Indian citizen can.
In my personal opinion OCI is suitable for a majority of the PIO population.It offers substantial benefits and also makes the path to full Indian citizenship easier.
As far as the voting issue goes,well, i would prefer to be a voice in my country of residence.It would be unfair to the citizens of India if a person sitting in another country can be an influence to decisions that affect him on a daily basis.This of course is my opinion.If i want to vote in India I will give up my foreign citizenship and become a full Indian citizen first.
As a footnote I would like to mention that OCI is a roll back from the previously promised dual citizenship and is probably the result of some babu flexing his muscles.But in the final analysis OCI is a step forward and is not bad.
if this is true than why we can not use OCI visa(life long) on expired foreign passport of staying in country indefinitily.
Let me clarify something about voting in India. Indian citizens, living in their constituency can vote in the elections. If an Indian citizen is away from his constituency, he can not vote, e.g. indians living abroad, there is no mechanism to vote in the elections in India.
Even the military personnel who are active duty and are posted away from their constituency, cannot vote in India. So voting in India still needs to go a lot of distance for its people to exercise the right to vote. We can argue about the right to vote of an Indian citizen vs. OCI...but the reality is without absentee voting, a lot of India's citizens don't even really get the chance to vote.
Even the military personnel who are active duty and are posted away from their constituency, cannot vote in India. So voting in India still needs to go a lot of distance for its people to exercise the right to vote. We can argue about the right to vote of an Indian citizen vs. OCI...but the reality is without absentee voting, a lot of India's citizens don't even really get the chance to vote.
mangal969 said:2.The act granting OCI and Indian citizenship are the same.Technically if OCI is vulnerable as you say so is Indian citizenship.I know citizenship is a constitutionally garunteed right but if they enter some weird amendment as a prerequisite for citizenship (say 5 years of military service) you can be denied Indian citizenship as well (This is of course a long shot).
3.For visiting PAP/RAP areas Indian citizens too need to apply to the army for a permit.I dont think there are any other areas that OCI's are denied access to.
4.A child of an OCI can claim Indian citizenship by birth if he fulfils the provisions of the Citizenship act.If a person is eligible for OCI (in the current generation atleast) his child would also be eligible for OCI.The naturalisation route is always open.
7.An Indian citizen does need to maintain an Indian passport
8.An OCI holder can avail of the tax treaties just as an Indian citizen can.
In my personal opinion OCI is suitable for a majority of the PIO population.It offers substantial benefits and also makes the path to full Indian citizenship easier.
As far as the voting issue goes,well, i would prefer to be a voice in my country of residence.It would be unfair to the citizens of India if a person sitting in another country can be an influence to decisions that affect him on a daily basis.This of course is my opinion.If i want to vote in India I will give up my foreign citizenship and become a full Indian citizen first.
2. If you apply for Indian citizenship, of course it can be denied. But if you are already an Indian citizen, it is almost impossible to have it taken away against your will. That's what I mean when I say citizenship is a right, OCI is a privilege.
3. My source for the PAP/RAP was the MHA comparison chart http://mha.nic.in/oci-chart.pdf, which says:
"What activities can be undertaken in India? NRI: All activities. OCI: All activities except mountaineering, missionary and research work and existing PAP/RAP which require specific permit." Is that wrong, and if so, can you post the source here?
4. The naturalization route is not easily open for a child in a country like the US which does not allow the child to renounce US citizenship and requires the child to hold a US passport for foreign travel.
7. An Indian citizen needs to hold an Indian passport only when traveling abroad, not while living in India. I'd say the vast majority of Indian citizens don't hold and have never held a passport.
8. If you not a citizen of India, clearly any tax treaty with benefits for Indian citizens won't apply. Of course, India can now try to negotiate tax treaties with benefits for OCI too, but I haven't heard of any move to do so.
Voting:
Even Indian citizens living outside India can't vote because there's no absentee ballot. If you don't plan on actually living in India, obviously citizenship is much less important for you.
mangal696 said:
Agreed.
Tamtom
Different perceptions
Today, with a lot of PIOs with foreign citizenship returning to India for good, I guess there are two groups of people who perceive the need for "true" dual citizenship differently.
For most PIOs who do not intend to return to India for good, the current OCI scheme provides all that they would practically need for now. It is also perceived as being better than "true" dual citizenship for many in this category since it avoids any potential problems that might arise by virtue of being a dual national.
For those PIOs holding a passport of another country but returning to India for employment and permanent residence for the near foreseeable future, the possibility of getting "true dual citizenship" and possessing both an Indian as well as a foreign passport might seem more attractive and desirable.
I do believe the impetus for a "dual citizenship" scheme came from the former group and not the latter and the watering down of the scheme from true dual citizenship to its current OCI form was because that was what suited most people belonging to the former group as they examined the pros and cons of true citizenship in more detail. Anyway, that's my opinion
So, I guess there is no disputing the fact that OCI is good and suits many people's needs. Hopefully, they will be able to make "true dual citizenship" a reality in the not too distant future to satisfy the needs of the remaning.
Today, with a lot of PIOs with foreign citizenship returning to India for good, I guess there are two groups of people who perceive the need for "true" dual citizenship differently.
For most PIOs who do not intend to return to India for good, the current OCI scheme provides all that they would practically need for now. It is also perceived as being better than "true" dual citizenship for many in this category since it avoids any potential problems that might arise by virtue of being a dual national.
For those PIOs holding a passport of another country but returning to India for employment and permanent residence for the near foreseeable future, the possibility of getting "true dual citizenship" and possessing both an Indian as well as a foreign passport might seem more attractive and desirable.
I do believe the impetus for a "dual citizenship" scheme came from the former group and not the latter and the watering down of the scheme from true dual citizenship to its current OCI form was because that was what suited most people belonging to the former group as they examined the pros and cons of true citizenship in more detail. Anyway, that's my opinion
So, I guess there is no disputing the fact that OCI is good and suits many people's needs. Hopefully, they will be able to make "true dual citizenship" a reality in the not too distant future to satisfy the needs of the remaning.
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Tamtom,
I hve no information source to show that PA/RA permits are required for Indian citizens but i know from experience.A friend of mine (IC) had recently taken a tour of Rajasthan which included Jaisalmer and he and his family had to apply for Army clearance beforehand.I assume this to be similar to a PAP/RAP.
I hve no information source to show that PA/RA permits are required for Indian citizens but i know from experience.A friend of mine (IC) had recently taken a tour of Rajasthan which included Jaisalmer and he and his family had to apply for Army clearance beforehand.I assume this to be similar to a PAP/RAP.
Tamtom,
Renunciation of US citizenship:
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html
And most tax treaties help avoid double taxation if you are a citizen of one country and work in another.Besides most countries tax people earning in their country.US is the only one that taxes based on citizenship.As an OCI you can avail of the same treaties as an Indian citizen.
http://finance.indiamart.com/taxation/taxtreaties.html
Renunciation of US citizenship:
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html
And most tax treaties help avoid double taxation if you are a citizen of one country and work in another.Besides most countries tax people earning in their country.US is the only one that taxes based on citizenship.As an OCI you can avail of the same treaties as an Indian citizen.
http://finance.indiamart.com/taxation/taxtreaties.html
mangal969 said:
mangal969,
OK, point taken. I don't know the details of recent travel restrictions on Indian citizens compared to OCI, either.
My list was just a bunch of things that came to mind quickly. The larger point is that there are a lot of random differences between Indian citizens and non-citizens, and probably nobody ever thought about them with regard to OCI.
Here are a few more examples. Does an OCI have an equal right with Indian citizen to serve as an Advocate in a court of law in India? Does an OCI have the same right as an Indian citizen to publish a newspaper or own a media company in India? There must be many more questions like that.
I agree with the other points by you and immuser. No doubt OCI is good, especially for someone who views the other country as the primary home. But it is unfortunate that it causes so much confusion by containing the word "citizen" in the title.
Tamtom
mangal969 said:
mangal969,
The main problem about that is the US requires the renunciation to be with full intent, including awareness of what it means. Will they accept a renunciation form by a young child? I don't think so. This was my point saying it is not easily available to children.
mangal969 said:
I read that and didn't find any mention of OCI. As far as I understand, a treaty offering benefits to citizens of a country does not automatically give the same benefits to permanent visa holders in the country, unless specifically agreed in the treaty. So could you explain why you think a treaty referring to Indian citizens would also apply to OCI?
But I agree the tax example is minor. The main point is there are lots of differences between citizenship and non-citizenship of India, but not every difference is very important for every person.
Hope this clarifies,
Tamtom
Tamtom,
Yes.A child too can renounce the US citizenship
"F. RENUNCIATION FOR MINOR CHILDREN
Parents cannot renounce U.S. citizenship on behalf of their minor children. Before an oath of renunciation will be administered under Section 349(a)(5) of the INA, a person under the age of eighteen must convince a U.S. diplomatic or consular officer that he/she fully understands the nature and consequences of the oath of renunciation and is voluntarily seeking to renounce his/her U.S. citizenship. United States common law establishes an arbitrary limit of age fourteen under which a child’s understanding must be established by substantial evidence. "
And the tax treaties are reciprocal and irrespective of citizenship.If country A collects tax on money earned within it's borders and the money is sent to country B then country B will not charge any tax or give credit for tax already paid to country A.
Yes.A child too can renounce the US citizenship
"F. RENUNCIATION FOR MINOR CHILDREN
Parents cannot renounce U.S. citizenship on behalf of their minor children. Before an oath of renunciation will be administered under Section 349(a)(5) of the INA, a person under the age of eighteen must convince a U.S. diplomatic or consular officer that he/she fully understands the nature and consequences of the oath of renunciation and is voluntarily seeking to renounce his/her U.S. citizenship. United States common law establishes an arbitrary limit of age fourteen under which a child’s understanding must be established by substantial evidence. "
And the tax treaties are reciprocal and irrespective of citizenship.If country A collects tax on money earned within it's borders and the money is sent to country B then country B will not charge any tax or give credit for tax already paid to country A.
Tamtom,
An OCI advocate can practice in India subject to his meeting other requirements.He cant hold any public post (like solicitor-general) or become a judge.
About the newspapers it is a sticky issue.Right now NRI's (who are basically citizens of India) cannot own a media company above a certain minority percentage.
Basically I agree with you on the points you present.But if there is a person who falls into such a position or wants to enter active politics,OCI also gives him a fast track into full Indian citizenship.
Also if you observe other countries (like the US and UK) sensitive and research posts are kept out of the purview of dual citizens.
Ultimately I do agree with tamtom that we got short changed with OCI but if you really think about it other than the title and a few benefits and a few complications (For ex you are a dual citizen of US and India and get arrested in Australia-who can & will help you ? ),it is not much different.It definitely fulfils our short term needs.
An OCI advocate can practice in India subject to his meeting other requirements.He cant hold any public post (like solicitor-general) or become a judge.
About the newspapers it is a sticky issue.Right now NRI's (who are basically citizens of India) cannot own a media company above a certain minority percentage.
Basically I agree with you on the points you present.But if there is a person who falls into such a position or wants to enter active politics,OCI also gives him a fast track into full Indian citizenship.
Also if you observe other countries (like the US and UK) sensitive and research posts are kept out of the purview of dual citizens.
Ultimately I do agree with tamtom that we got short changed with OCI but if you really think about it other than the title and a few benefits and a few complications (For ex you are a dual citizen of US and India and get arrested in Australia-who can & will help you ? ),it is not much different.It definitely fulfils our short term needs.
mangal969 said:
As I said, it is "not easily available" and your source above confirms this (requires "substantial evidence" if child is under 14, and evaluation of this evidence is up to the interviewing officer.)
mangal969 said:
OK, point taken. You are right about the tax treaty.
manga969 said:
Are you sure? A non-OCI foreigner does not have equal rights with Indian citizen in this regard, and I don't see "parity in right to practice law" as one of the listed OCI rights.
manga969 said:
Yes, but after returning to India they can have residence there and are no longer NRI's.
manga969 said:
That's well established and the answer is, the country on whose passport you entered Australia.
manga969 said:
I would say it depends on the goals of each person. If you want to fully participate in Indian society and care about your constitutional guarantee of free speech, voting rights, unalienability of your status, etc. then it has no resemblence to citizenship at all. If you only want a convenient way to visit India, then it is not much different and fulfils this need.
Hope this clarifies,
Tamtom
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Indian Tourist Visa - Photographs Question
Sorry that I am veering away from the topic.
But can someone tell me the size of the photographs that should be affixed to the Indian tourist visa form? Does it have to follow the American passport standard or the "(in)famous" Indian OCI application standard?
Thanks.
Sorry that I am veering away from the topic.
But can someone tell me the size of the photographs that should be affixed to the Indian tourist visa form? Does it have to follow the American passport standard or the "(in)famous" Indian OCI application standard?
Thanks.