How to Maintain GC by staying abroad?

nkm. Thank you for your response. I apologize for not raising a specific question which reflects real life situation. Yes, I agree, these are all hypothetical situations which I am raising in order to understand the system. Very few may have had such situation but unless we have the cross question, we would not learn.

Please take the whole process sportingly. I can understand your frustration. JoeF has been very kind in answering and replying to all questions. Though after reading several of my posts and his replies, it may appear that he is not really approving any of my approaches. But that does not mean he is not helping me. At least he has made good points to show what does not work. And it is up to me to figure out what works.
 
Thanks JoeF.

I am surprised that how POE operation differ depending on whether it is land or airport. While crossing Canadian border they do not scan GC. In that case, how US officer's would know if the person resided in US or Canada? The officer has to go by what the GC holder says. Why this process is different?
 
Avalon said:
Thanks JoeF.

I am surprised that how POE operation differ depending on whether it is land or airport. While crossing Canadian border they do not scan GC. In that case, how US officer's would know if the person resided in US or Canada? The officer has to go by what the GC holder says. Why this process is different?
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I guess they don't have too many scanners for every road-blocks :rolleyes:
 
I am a late entrant in this discussion. Let me describe I incident I know.

One person I know who has family based GC. He did not come to USA after getting GC. He got an employment from big multinational company (say "XComany India") in India. Then he managed to project that he is actually an employee of XCompany USA and his company is relocating him to India (I don't know exactly how he did that). Showing this reason he got his re-entry permit. He was working at India for two years. Just before two years is over (before ren-entry permit expires), he left India job and came to USA. He never had any trouble to enter USA.

I guess when you work for an American company and go abroad for assignment (for short term), it's easier to get re-entry permit and easier to explain the reason for staying abroad for long (read "short") period of time.
 
I'm new to this thread. but want to know more on this topic

Joe F, I'm just wondering if I drive cross the border to Canada and fly out North America. Then after 6 months, I come back to Canada and then drive back to the US. How will BCIS know I was out of US in the past 6 months, if no passport checking at the border?

Thanks in advance for your reply.
 
But it is very easy to maintain residence here in US and show that you lived here. You can own a house and make a payment. Pay taxes, have utility on your name. If you are in apartment then have lease on your name. Nowadays one can pay bills online so someone does not even need to be in US to pay bills. All one has to do is to maintain a bank account in US. And it is not too difficult to do that. I

The possibility that BBCHenGC has shown is not remote. Imagine a situation where a Canadian citizen but having a US GC is residing in Seattle, WA. If he goes to Vancouver, Canada, then all he has to present is Canadian passport. While entering US, he is not obligated to show his PR card. He can still enter using Canadian passport. They do not stamp Canadian passports and if they start doing it, many will soon have pages filled within no time. In that case, it is not possible for POE officer to challenge him. During his naturalization, it is too difficult to prove that he actually lived in Vancouver, Canada even though he had residence in Seattle, WA.
 
Yes, Credit Card is a good trail. I have personally made telephone calls to my local movie theater and purchased tickets, I have called local restaurants to pick up the food and then have my colleague pick it up, I have made a call to local department store and keep the item for me on hold to be picked up later on by my friend.

Here we are not discussing about stupidity, the issue is of maintaing GC and let us stay foucs on that track.
 
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JoeF said:
Well, yeah, but you can't go shopping at a local store or restaurant and pay with your creditcard if you are abroad...
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That's a bit paranoid. Someone in I-485 Issue thread was joking that he is saving his all grocery receipt for last 5 years to reply RFE. In case USCIS asks if thay are eating enough to become a green card holder.

Yes, USCIS can ask for some fundamental things of life as residence proof - property, tax filing, employer, pay stubs etc. Now, your employer can lies and cooks your pay stubs, you can lie and cook your tax return. We know that's illlegal. You know, if someone wants find loopholes of system and wants get away, they can do it anyway. That's why lots of people evades tax, that's why lots of people illegally get GC and probably that's why lots of people will retain GC illegally and get citizenship. Let's not disccuss it. It's better not to comment or answer about it, if someone raises that kind of questions. Let's discuss how to retain GC without breaking any immigration framework.
If you live in Canada more than 6 months without re-entry permit, you are breaking the law - whether your passport is marked or not.

But showing restaurant bill that I had 3 years back? Or credit card bills 2 years back? Give me a break. Period.

JoeF said:
Don't think the CIS people are stupid... They have seen all the ways you can imagine...
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Probably not stupid. But they are certainly not smart.
 
JoeF said:
They can request official transcripts from IRS...
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I know, they requests for stamped copies too (you need to pay $39.00 per return to get it from IRS), is USCIS is doubtful. But most of the time they don't.

JoeF said:
Hmm, you apparently have no idea about the tax system...
If they don't get you on anything else, they get you on tax issues... It is well known that the mobster Al Capone didn't get into prison for the murders he committed, but rather for tax evasion...
A guy called Marc Rich is in "exile" in Switzerland, because he would face a long prison term in the US for tax evasion (Switzerland doesn't extradite people on tax evasion charges.) When Clinton tried to pardon him in 2000, there was a huge outcry, and Bush reversed Clinton's decision...
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Well, today I got ticket for speeding. Does that mean all who are speeding today got tickets? Or does that mean that nobody got ticket? World is not black-and-white that much.

JoeF said:
A common misconception, based on the experience with the frontline personnel. The people in the back rooms, who actually do the work, are way smarter than the people you interact with...
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I would be looking for meeting those persons some day :rolleyes: If USCIS was so smart, immigration community would be lot better off today. The fact is that most of them are good at what they do. But they certainly did not show any sign of smartness. Otherwise, that 9/11 dead terrorists visa would not be approved at all.

My friend bought home 3 years back and sent AR-11. Two years back he got his green card. About few months back got a notice from DHS "Our record shows that you changed your address.....". If Depart of Homeland Security takes 3 years a find out a person's address, God save America.

Listening all the horrific mistakes by USCIS, it seems the person standing at MacD counter who get minimum wage lot smarter than USCIS. Now you may say that USCIS personnels are lots smarter than people I interact with. At least I haven't seen a MacD guy giving me wrong burder anytime.
 
JoeF said:
All the things you mention, the status change for the 9/11 terrorists, the AR-11 stuff, that are all management issues. And the good people don't work on entering AR-11s into a computer system. That's a task for low-level clerks.
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It's like I am smart but what I do are not all that smart. I have no idea know how smartly Mr Shusterman accomplished this job in INS. All I know that he is a very successful (probably smart too) immigration attorney of United States. I don't believe in generic smartness. What matters is that your work output is smart enough or not. Bill Gates or Steve Jobs were school drop out, but still were smart enough on their own ways.

On the other hand, good people don't work entering AR-11, but they certainly try to make management better so that low-level clerks can do their work better way. So, when I say XYZ Bank is good bank, that does not mean that their management guys are "smart" and their tellers or customer service are stupid. It means they all doing a "smart-job" together.
Unfortunately, USCIS fails in that ground - no matter how many "smart" people they have or had (including ex-employee Mr. Shusterman).
 
JoeF said:
Be sure to keep that ticket. You need to list all tickets you ever got on your naturalization application...
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I would not mention a civil infraction, unless they specifically asks for it. It's not a crime. And, I don't volunteer any information.
 
The discussion is getting out of track here. Let us stay focus on main issue of "How to maintain GC while visiting abroad?" I have to rephrase it from earlier title from 'staying abroad' to 'visitng abroad'. And this time it is obvious that I mean do everything you can but do it legally. It is implied.

From the discussion that we have had so far, there is no concrete answer coming because of two variables which are subjective. These are,

1. "intent" - you need to show your intention to reside in US permanently.

2. "temporary absence"- while residing in US, your absence from US needs to be temporary.

Is there any other variable which is subjective and can not be quantified? If not then here is the argument, for each of these variables,

1. intent- if someone does not have an intention to reside in US then why would he/she come back to US if he visits abroad. This shows that the person is genuinely interested in keeping GC. And intent can be proved by showing, tax returns, ownership of house, employment in US, bank accounts, rental agreements and utility bills. Some major factors are, close relatives such as spouse, mother, father, son and daughter.

2. temporary absence- this is more easy as USCIS has outlined that clearly. 1 year of continuous absence and you loose GC automatically. So can someone do that year after year, may be not.

There is one more requirement and this has nothing to do from Maintenence of GC. If you are away from US for more than 6 months then your clock that counts your eligibility for citizenship is reset to zero. That is why, POE officers mark on passport of any stays which are longer than 6 months but they let you in.

But as long as the visit is for short duration of 1, 2 and in some cases 3 months then that should not be alarming to POE officer.
 
Thanks JoeF.

We are definitely NOT talking about the people who have seeked residence abroad and visiting evry year to keep the GC alive. We are talking about people who are residing in US just like you do but have a need to visit abroad on a regular basis. This satisfies the two variables, 'intent' and 'temporary' as described above.

The third variable then comes into play is 'frequency'. How often a GC holder residing in US can make visits aborad if the duration of visits are shorter, say 1 month may be two in each of these visits? Note that the person is spending more 'total time' in US than aborad. For example, if he is making a visit aborad for about 1 month then he is in US for two months before making another trip.
 
Avalon said:
The third variable then comes into play is 'frequency'. How often a GC holder residing in US can make visits aborad if the duration of visits are shorter, say 1 month may be two in each of these visits? Note that the person is spending more 'total time' in US than aborad. For example, if he is making a visit aborad for about 1 month then he is in US for two months before making another trip.
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As "intent" itself is a subjective matter - I don't think you can conclude in any manner that a particular number is good enough to prove your "intent". There is no specific number to make your comfortable you 100%. Just like divorce case, staying abroad case will be unique for each individual and the final result depends on how you prove your intent.
One person can stay 10 months abroad and still he can prove his intent very easily. At this point all the unique situations come as factors - property, tax, where your spouse living etc, which company you are working, what you are doing abroad, where your childrens are going to school etc. On the other hand one person staying out only 3 months out of USA can fail to prove his intent. Whatever the factors I described earlier add some points in your favor, but none of them are absolute benchmark as proof of intent.

Let me tell one experience I had couple of years back.

I met one old women in Hong Kong airport - as she could not read English, hence did not know which gate she need go for get her Los Angeles flight, she was looking for help. She is from India and she has GC. At POE, as I was just behind her in line, the officer used me as a translator to communicate with her. The officer was aggeresively interrogative learning that she stayed last four months at India. She has three sons and one daughter living in India. Fourth son who is an US citizen sponsored her GC. Even her hunband lives in India - doing business. These facts all came from the Q&A. Eventually the officer let her in after saying "This card is given to her for living here, not in India. If she wants to live in India she can give up her GC and visit his son here in visitors visa". I am sure she will have hard time to prove her "intent" in every travel and re-entry. Even if she meets 6 month rule every year she will hard time for sure because her whole situation does not show she intends to live in USA.
 
pralay. Thanks for your input.

In the absence of specific measurable rules, we need to go from more pragmatic approach. That is by citing some real life examples where GC was questioned and then revoked.

In the example you gave, the GC was not revoked. Finally the officer let the lady go. Why? Because there is not much he could do as she was well within the period of 1 year. Secondly, he knew that her son is a citizen. That makes a big difference. In case, her GC is revoked then son could apply again and the GC can not be denied.
 
Thanks JoeF.

I agree that one needs to go by case law. US laws are based upon the old English case laws. ( In India it is the same). But one does not need to go to judge and a lawyer for that. The precedence and example cases that have had verdict are available to public. One does not need a lawyer for that.

GC can be denied, yes but the denial is not easy and appealable. It is hard to deny unless some specific situations arise.

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Let me put a case that I know of where GC is denied.
My friend came here on H visa. He got GC. He got married and the girl too had come here on H visa and had GC before the marriage. They lived happily in Bay Area and had two kids. Both decided to go back to India. Meanwhile, my friend got Citizenship while his wife had not completed enough number of years to be eligible for citizenship. Regardless of that, both went back home and settled in India.

Wife wanted to resign from her well paying job. When her employer found out that she is basically leaving because of family reasons they gave her a nice offer. That is to continue to work for the same company from her home in India. The couple was happy. My friend started a consulting business and used to visit frequently to his US clients.

Two years passed and the wife's employer wanted her to visit US for an advanced training. She went to US Consulate and was told that her GC is denied and she can not travel. Employer sent her a B visa but that was denied as she had originally shown an intent to reside permanently in US. She could not attend the training and hence lost her well paying job.

My friend who is US citizen applied for her GC again. It was approved becauase of immediate relationship. She is now working for the consulting company formed by her husband and is working from home in India looking after her children. Occasionally she travels to US for implementation of software and gathering customer requirements. Like any other fairy-tale, they lived happily ever after.....(rather living happily...)
 
JoeF

I disagree to the last part. No one can be deported unless a deportation notice is served. And people appeal deportation notice. Arrest is even an act much difficult. Person can be arrested if he/she has committed serious offence. And being illegal resident is not considered grounds for arrest. If it was true, there are millions already in this country who are supposed to be arrested. When they are found being illegal, all the law does is serve a deportation notice. And even when such notices are served, those people file for asylum and get away.

If the law was so serious about these illegal immigrants, US would not be giving amnesty and asylum. US won't be giving away GC by lottery. US Presidents would not make attempt to legalise those illegal immigrants. Clinton did and Bush is on his way. All US Government is looking for is serious offenders.
 
JoeF said:
Well, you can disagree as much as you want. This happened here in SoCal. Welcome to reality... In the end, it was determined that the INS officer had overstepped his authority. But, that was after an expensive law suit lasting a year, while the spouse was stuck abroad, while husband and little child were in the US...
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I wish you mentioned the red line that when you shared the story. Yes, this kind of thing happens ALL the times ALL the places - even for American citizens. Just as an analogy - Ruby Ridge case, Waco, Rodney King, Diallo cases are not common, but they are exceptional cases. I guess very same way, I don't think this kind of overstepping happens all the time - but they are just exceptions. Even sometimes cops excercize excessive force sometimes (not far from where you live - in Inglewood one and half years back). Now, bad things happen. When it comes to USCIS, Special Registration saga is a good example. But in the end, these are not rule of the land.
 
The discussion is getting off track here. The issue is of 'Maintaining the GC by Visiting Abroad'. Let us stay on main course.

Because we have agreed that this topic is subjective, let us look at from practical point of view. The question that I would like to ask is,

"How many cases are there where GC holder is denied entry at POE?" (The second obvious question then comes is what was the reason?)

This way we will be able to know the extent to which the law gets put into practice. There are many GC holders in this country and many travel, many stay for a longer period.

If we take away the exceptional cases, there will be very few cases where GC is denied. I so far came across only one case and I do not know anyone who has heard any other case. It is easy to conclude that GC can be denied but the extent to which the law is pursued by officer at POE tells a different story. I am sure, when it comes to judge, the lawyers do their job and save GC holder. For those who fail in court put an appeal. So at every stage from POE Officer to Judge to Appeal's Court the numbers get filtered out. Finally the number of cases are so few that it is just like a small dot on radar screen.
 
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