How to Maintain GC by staying abroad?
- Thread starter Avalon
- Start date
JoeF said:
Well, I was explaining that this kind of bad things happens, but not common - with an analogy. Those incidents make FBI and police department look bad, but we cannot say FBI does kind of thing ALL the times. Same way, for immigration case you mentioned, you cannot say that happens ALL the times. In the end justice was served - they got together. They lost one year. It's unfortunate. But that's the agony we have bear when live in a democratic society and everything has process - some of them take time.
And, yes, AR-11 is written law. A person can be deported if he does not file AR-11 within 10 days. I don't see any dispute here.
Thanks JoeF.
You did a wonderful job. When someone cites a USCIS website link as a reference then he/she is talking good. And when somone cites numbers, then it is much better. This indeed is a very good document that you found.
But if you see, the prime reasons for all these revokations was a criminal activity. Out of these some could be due to over stay abroad but we do not know the numbers. 2000 revocation per year out of what ????. We assume here that there are say 20 Million PRs in US. (actual figure is different) then we are talking about only 0.01 per cent. These include criminals.
So the cases where a GC is revoked by overstaying abroad could be 0.001 per cent. This is not worth loosing sleep. Thus, we can conclude that the law prohibits over stay abroad but with careful planning and precautions, one could avoid revokation of GC. One can maintain GC if the visits to abroad are short and are less frequent.
You did a wonderful job. When someone cites a USCIS website link as a reference then he/she is talking good. And when somone cites numbers, then it is much better. This indeed is a very good document that you found.
But if you see, the prime reasons for all these revokations was a criminal activity. Out of these some could be due to over stay abroad but we do not know the numbers. 2000 revocation per year out of what ????. We assume here that there are say 20 Million PRs in US. (actual figure is different) then we are talking about only 0.01 per cent. These include criminals.
So the cases where a GC is revoked by overstaying abroad could be 0.001 per cent. This is not worth loosing sleep. Thus, we can conclude that the law prohibits over stay abroad but with careful planning and precautions, one could avoid revokation of GC. One can maintain GC if the visits to abroad are short and are less frequent.
Yes - I wonder how many PRs who had a reentry permit and had some ties to the US like property(e.g: car, furniture), paid US taxes as resident, had US credit cards, had friends in the US, bank accounts and maintained a physical address with a friend were denied entry on the basis of abandoning their residence.
So inspite of the fact that they made an attempt to maintain ties to the US - an immigration officer who had a bad day and wanted to get at sb - simply put the PR in jail and sent him on his way back home. Is that a common thing with immigration officials nowadays?
Are there common ways immigration officials try to trick the LPR so that they take away his green card?
So inspite of the fact that they made an attempt to maintain ties to the US - an immigration officer who had a bad day and wanted to get at sb - simply put the PR in jail and sent him on his way back home. Is that a common thing with immigration officials nowadays?
Are there common ways immigration officials try to trick the LPR so that they take away his green card?
robwoj,
As JoeF had put it correctly the officer at POE can not revoke GC. And no one goes to jail because they over stayed abroad. Coooooome on... this is America... come to reality.
The officer questions and then gives two options, either leave country and come back on a Returning Resident Visa or he allows you to enter and USCIS sends you a Revocation Notice.
Do not get the assumption that you will be stripped off of your card at the airport and sent back. Only criminals go to jail and over staying abroad is not a crime.
The lawyers always recommend to choose the option of getting inside America and then appealing rather than going back and appealing at local Consulate.
As JoeF had put it correctly the officer at POE can not revoke GC. And no one goes to jail because they over stayed abroad. Coooooome on... this is America... come to reality.
The officer questions and then gives two options, either leave country and come back on a Returning Resident Visa or he allows you to enter and USCIS sends you a Revocation Notice.
Do not get the assumption that you will be stripped off of your card at the airport and sent back. Only criminals go to jail and over staying abroad is not a crime.
The lawyers always recommend to choose the option of getting inside America and then appealing rather than going back and appealing at local Consulate.
I am very late jumping in here, but I'd like to ask a simple question to Avalon.
You seem to be highly concerned about losing your green card. Of course you are... I mean, who aren't, right? That being the case, would it be an option for you to get a job that will NOT require such frequent travels abroad? That will get a lot of pressure off your shoulders.
You seem to be highly concerned about losing your green card. Of course you are... I mean, who aren't, right? That being the case, would it be an option for you to get a job that will NOT require such frequent travels abroad? That will get a lot of pressure off your shoulders.
daihard,
Welcome. Yes you are right. But let me give you some parallel examples and you would understand my point.
Is H visa holder is asked the question "How long were you out US?" I was never. I was only asked, "Who do you work for?" and that too in some cases. Majority of time I was not asked any question.
Is Citizen asked the question "How long were you out of US?". Nope. So why GC holders are asked these questions? As long as they are within the limits then they have freedom to move in and out. Why is there such a restricion? Agreed that GC holders need to be in US. But what about people who have business reasons to go out of US? Is that not a concerned when you are on H visa or if you are a citizen for USCIS?
I have some more points but I will pose them little later....
Welcome. Yes you are right. But let me give you some parallel examples and you would understand my point.
Is H visa holder is asked the question "How long were you out US?" I was never. I was only asked, "Who do you work for?" and that too in some cases. Majority of time I was not asked any question.
Is Citizen asked the question "How long were you out of US?". Nope. So why GC holders are asked these questions? As long as they are within the limits then they have freedom to move in and out. Why is there such a restricion? Agreed that GC holders need to be in US. But what about people who have business reasons to go out of US? Is that not a concerned when you are on H visa or if you are a citizen for USCIS?
I have some more points but I will pose them little later....
Hi.Avalon said:
Thanks for the response. I do understand that you feel the GC holders are disadvantaged compared with citizens and H-1B holders.
I can only speak for myself, but I got harrassed more as an H-1B holder than as a GC holder. I had to stop at the U.S.-Canadian border most every time to get stamped, I got a lot more questions at the POE, etc. YMMV.
I just wondered about your position because it looked to me like you were looking for a job that would require you to constantly travel abroad. I just thought it'd be easier for you to get a job that has no such requirement. Again, if the job you happened to get does require overseas travels, I'm sure they'll have no problem with that.
daihard,
One needs to understand the global nature of todays economy. In US, plants are being setup near Dearborn, MI just outside US boundary in Canada by big three auto makers. Plants are being setup in southern Texas border in Mexico. I was offered a job last year whereby I would live in US but factory was a stone's throw away in Mexico. The palnt employs hundreds of local Mexicans who do not need to cross border. The plant benefits from local labor, low taxation. In that plant, your cell phones work the same way as US. You are just physically present in Mexico but actually living in US. A company bus takes people daily from US to plant in Mexico. After a brief checkup at border, employees are in Mexico. The only mandatory is they carry their PR cards and passports with them along with employee badge. Also they can cross border only in company vehicle. In the evening, people are back safe in their company apartment complex.
If a GC holder can do this daily at the border then staying away for a brief period for business reasons should not be considered abnormal.
Today, outsourcing has opened a door half way across the world. People need free travel in and out. Many US companies have offices in India and 100's of US companies depend on software processed in India. In such scenario, travel is necessary to manage people, projects and work.
Many of us have come to this country for 'opportunity'. Today the 'opportunity' is shifting in other parts of world. Some have moved to the 'opportunity'. I know people who have abondoned GC and are now happily living in India. But for some, the life style that US offers is still comfy and cosy to leave US permanently. In that case, the option that they have is to sieze the 'opportunity' but not leave US. With telephone and internet world has come closer. Just 50 years back, it used to take 24 hours for a person to go from CA to Boston (in a small plane). Today people can go to India in that time. With changing time, we should look globally and not limit our vision. People within US travel freely making a flight that lasts for 8 hours and do business. This has become a norm and no one wonders why someone is on plane for 5 hours. In tomorrow's economy people will not consider going to other side of globe is different from going to other side of town.
One needs to understand the global nature of todays economy. In US, plants are being setup near Dearborn, MI just outside US boundary in Canada by big three auto makers. Plants are being setup in southern Texas border in Mexico. I was offered a job last year whereby I would live in US but factory was a stone's throw away in Mexico. The palnt employs hundreds of local Mexicans who do not need to cross border. The plant benefits from local labor, low taxation. In that plant, your cell phones work the same way as US. You are just physically present in Mexico but actually living in US. A company bus takes people daily from US to plant in Mexico. After a brief checkup at border, employees are in Mexico. The only mandatory is they carry their PR cards and passports with them along with employee badge. Also they can cross border only in company vehicle. In the evening, people are back safe in their company apartment complex.
If a GC holder can do this daily at the border then staying away for a brief period for business reasons should not be considered abnormal.
Today, outsourcing has opened a door half way across the world. People need free travel in and out. Many US companies have offices in India and 100's of US companies depend on software processed in India. In such scenario, travel is necessary to manage people, projects and work.
Many of us have come to this country for 'opportunity'. Today the 'opportunity' is shifting in other parts of world. Some have moved to the 'opportunity'. I know people who have abondoned GC and are now happily living in India. But for some, the life style that US offers is still comfy and cosy to leave US permanently. In that case, the option that they have is to sieze the 'opportunity' but not leave US. With telephone and internet world has come closer. Just 50 years back, it used to take 24 hours for a person to go from CA to Boston (in a small plane). Today people can go to India in that time. With changing time, we should look globally and not limit our vision. People within US travel freely making a flight that lasts for 8 hours and do business. This has become a norm and no one wonders why someone is on plane for 5 hours. In tomorrow's economy people will not consider going to other side of globe is different from going to other side of town.
Avalon:
I think I understand your point. However, the main sticking point is "seizing the opportunity while not leaving the U.S." If you mean you continue living in the U.S. and simply make business trips to India, I don't see anything wrong with it. I don't think JoeF would, either. I was back in Japan twice in the first year since I got my GC; once for 5 weeks and the other for 2 weeks. I had no problem at all at the POE either time.
BTW, I work for a Norwegian company. Our headquarters is in Oslo. We hardly ever have any managers/directors/chief officers visit us from there, but we're doing just fine.
I think I understand your point. However, the main sticking point is "seizing the opportunity while not leaving the U.S." If you mean you continue living in the U.S. and simply make business trips to India, I don't see anything wrong with it. I don't think JoeF would, either. I was back in Japan twice in the first year since I got my GC; once for 5 weeks and the other for 2 weeks. I had no problem at all at the POE either time.
BTW, I work for a Norwegian company. Our headquarters is in Oslo. We hardly ever have any managers/directors/chief officers visit us from there, but we're doing just fine.
JoeF,
"Travelling has nothing to do with outsourcing". I know this and you do too.
If I run my own outsourcing company then I decide whether to travel or not and not POE. Why POE officer should dictate me how I run my business, how much is my bottom line and what is best for my company, whether it is outsourcing, travelling or managing remotely. He has no business to ask me why am I outsourcing or why am I travelling. Is that his duty to see how many times the people travel on business? Is that his duty to see whether how costly that turns out for any company? I do not think so. As long the entry is legitimate and within specified limits he can not restrict a business traveller.
I do not see anyone on this forum having problem with it and POE should be the last one to worry about it.
"Travelling has nothing to do with outsourcing". I know this and you do too.
If I run my own outsourcing company then I decide whether to travel or not and not POE. Why POE officer should dictate me how I run my business, how much is my bottom line and what is best for my company, whether it is outsourcing, travelling or managing remotely. He has no business to ask me why am I outsourcing or why am I travelling. Is that his duty to see how many times the people travel on business? Is that his duty to see whether how costly that turns out for any company? I do not think so. As long the entry is legitimate and within specified limits he can not restrict a business traveller.
I do not see anyone on this forum having problem with it and POE should be the last one to worry about it.
JoeF
Travel to India does not take ton of money. It just costs $1200/-. For those who would like to travel frequently they can not do that daily like Mexico or Canada. It is half way around the world! I can stay in US for 2 months visiting clients getting more business and stay in India for 2 months working with software engineers. If I do that repeatedly, it is just three times that I travelled. The amount spent ($3600) on travel is not much. Travel abroad three times a year is not really too much. And spending 2 months is really not getting in the way of GC.
And what IRS has to find out is they do anyway whether you are a citizen or GC holder. So everyone follows that.
People go for vacation their once a year and sometimes twice. If I go for three times a year then I am not rocking the boat. Secondly, people go for vacation for a month and sometimes more.
My aim is to visit India as long as and as far as law allows. I am trying to find the legal way of doing this.
Travel to India does not take ton of money. It just costs $1200/-. For those who would like to travel frequently they can not do that daily like Mexico or Canada. It is half way around the world! I can stay in US for 2 months visiting clients getting more business and stay in India for 2 months working with software engineers. If I do that repeatedly, it is just three times that I travelled. The amount spent ($3600) on travel is not much. Travel abroad three times a year is not really too much. And spending 2 months is really not getting in the way of GC.
And what IRS has to find out is they do anyway whether you are a citizen or GC holder. So everyone follows that.
People go for vacation their once a year and sometimes twice. If I go for three times a year then I am not rocking the boat. Secondly, people go for vacation for a month and sometimes more.
My aim is to visit India as long as and as far as law allows. I am trying to find the legal way of doing this.
JoeF
I would like to restrict the point of discussion only to "Maintaining GC by visiting abroad" ( As I have said earlier, I have changed the word from 'staying' to 'visiting'.)
This is what I would like to do, I would like to stay 2 months in US and visit India for 2 months and come back. Then I would like to repeat the same. This means that I have made three visits in a given year, each not more than 2 months duration. If I do this then, the question is,
"Does it violate requirement to maintain GC?"
I would like to restrict the point of discussion only to "Maintaining GC by visiting abroad" ( As I have said earlier, I have changed the word from 'staying' to 'visiting'.)
This is what I would like to do, I would like to stay 2 months in US and visit India for 2 months and come back. Then I would like to repeat the same. This means that I have made three visits in a given year, each not more than 2 months duration. If I do this then, the question is,
"Does it violate requirement to maintain GC?"
JoeF,
Thanks. As I have mentioned in the past, I would like to do this within the leagl limits. If I were to reside permanently in India then it does not matter whether I have a GC or not as it does not do any good to me except the piece of plastic as a souvenir.
It would be my sincere effort to do business in US and use the economic resource available in India to fulfill the business objectives in US. This business is not something set up as a front line of defense for my frequent travel outside US but it is something for my own benefit as well as benefit to US economy. I am considering outsourcing available in India as an opportunity that I can tap as I am an Indian and know Indians.
I just like to have freedom instead of working 8 to 5 job; freedom where I decide when I visit India instead my boss who tells me that I have only 3 weeks of vacation to visit India. I just wanted to make sure that being GC holder will my visits pose me a problem.
Thanks. As I have mentioned in the past, I would like to do this within the leagl limits. If I were to reside permanently in India then it does not matter whether I have a GC or not as it does not do any good to me except the piece of plastic as a souvenir.
It would be my sincere effort to do business in US and use the economic resource available in India to fulfill the business objectives in US. This business is not something set up as a front line of defense for my frequent travel outside US but it is something for my own benefit as well as benefit to US economy. I am considering outsourcing available in India as an opportunity that I can tap as I am an Indian and know Indians.
I just like to have freedom instead of working 8 to 5 job; freedom where I decide when I visit India instead my boss who tells me that I have only 3 weeks of vacation to visit India. I just wanted to make sure that being GC holder will my visits pose me a problem.
Quote from JoeF: "The officers at the POE are trained to figure out if somebody is lying to them (some retired officer mentioned that in an immigration newsgroup a couple of years back), so expect to be in for a grilling if you try to hide something..."
How did they figure out then? Any details, or URL for the immigration newspaper you mentioned?
How did they figure out then? Any details, or URL for the immigration newspaper you mentioned?
Maintaing GC in two countries is always going to be a problem. How can one be "resident" of two coutries? There is a difference in my case. I am a Citizen of India, that means I do not need to reside in India for any specific number of days in order to maintain my Indian citizenship.
People with both Canadian and US GC maintain both GCs until they get citizenship of either country. If they are caught before that then they have to give up either one and needless to say that majority of people give up their Canadian GC.
We are talking a different situation here. One GC and one Citizenship.
Avalon said:
That's one big flaw in US immigration system - they don't keep track of people when they are leaving. As you are from India, you know that in India when you leave country you have to go through imigration checkpoint too. I feel USA should do the same. In past probably they did not do it due to manpower problem. Once they do it, I don't think they need to ask you that question. However, I don't find this question offensive or uncomfortable as you do.
Avalon said:
No, when your are in H1, it's not their concern whether live in USA or outside - because you are a non-immigrant. When you are US citizen it's not their concern whether you live in USA or anywhere else - because as an US citizen you have right to live wherever you want. However, GC is conditional and it's privilege given to you. So it's their duty to watch whether you are fullfilling the conditions or not. That's the reason they ask you that question. Yes, you have freedom to move in and out as long as you don't break the conditions. I don't think just asking that question violates your freedom.