F4 how to calculate cspa

[mianusama723]

hey @SusieQQQ hope you are good. I discussed my case with you in july. My parents and siblings gave interview of F4 in islamabad embassy and all of their visa got approved except me and my sister both aged 27 and 25. They told us we were aged out. So, the thing i wanted to ask you now is that both of us siblings want to travel with them on F1 study visa. If now we apply for F1 study visa then does our parents and other two siblings immigration will affect our chances of getting f1 visa and should we look for community college or university to get admission to apply for F1 study visa

 

[SusieQQQ]

hey @SusieQQQ hope you are good. I discussed my case with you in july. My parents and siblings gave interview of F4 in islamabad embassy and all of their visa got approved except me and my sister both aged 27 and 25. They told us we were aged out. So, the thing i wanted to ask you now is that both of us siblings want to travel with them on F1 study visa. If now we apply for F1 study visa then does our parents and other two siblings immigration will affect our chances of getting f1 visa and should we look for community college or university to get admission to apply for F1 study visa

It’s difficult to answer that in absolute terms. On the one hand yes, it could be more difficult if you have family who want to petition you to immigrate as F1 student visa is a non immigrant visa. On the other hand, the categories that your parents can petition you and your sister in (assuming you are both unmarried) is family F2B, which at the moment has a wait time of around 8 years to get a visa number. So frankly unless you are doing undergrad plus PhD or medical/law school, you won’t be in the US long enough to get a green card without returning home first anyway.
if they think that you are doing this as an underhanded way to immigrate (and of course it looks suspicious if in your mid 20s you suddenly decide both to go study in the US at the same time as your other family members are moving there), or if they think you might violate the terms of the visa once there, or if they think you will not be able to meet any of the conditions of f1 - all of those could be reasons for denial.
I cannot give you advice what institution to apply at, if you are looking at a genuine F1 visa application you should be identifying what you want to study first and then do research as to what is an appropriate college to apply to. Of course you will also need to satisfy the other visa conditions including showing adequate funding etc.

 

[ForeverLearner]

Hi @mianusama723, if you go to the ceac status check (please google it as I can't put the link here) and enter your case number, how many enteries do yo see? So, for example, if we assume you have 2 younger siblings and you mentioned that you and your sister are 27 and 25, do you see 4 enteries or do you see 6 enteries (including parents)? The reason for my question is to determine whether the consulate had already decided your (and your sister's) disqualification before you went in on interview day or after you went in.
Also, I found your CSPA age to be 24 years 9 months and 22 days; and so any of your siblings that qualified had to be born on or after October 12th, 2000. Being born on or before Oct 11th 2000 disqualifies in your case.
Unfortunately, the Department of State doesn't go by the USCIS policy manual, they have their own, namely: the foreign affairs manual, and until that normalizes the legal language with USCIS, CSPA will be calculated by the old formula.
Please do check the case status and let us know how many enteries you see and what it says next to each (Issued, Refused....)...it would be interesting to know because certainly the NVC included you in the interview letter and should have had your enteries there (yours and yours sisters).

 

[mianusama723]

It’s difficult to answer that in absolute terms. On the one hand yes, it could be more difficult if you have family who want to petition you to immigrate as F1 student visa is a non immigrant visa. On the other hand, the categories that your parents can petition you and your sister in (assuming you are both unmarried) is family F2B, which at the moment has a wait time of around 8 years to get a visa number. So frankly unless you are doing undergrad plus PhD or medical/law school, you won’t be in the US long enough to get a green card without returning home first anyway.
if they think that you are doing this as an underhanded way to immigrate (and of course it looks suspicious if in your mid 20s you suddenly decide both to go study in the US at the same time as your other family members are moving there), or if they think you might violate the terms of the visa once there, or if they think you will not be able to meet any of the conditions of f1 - all of those could be reasons for denial.
I cannot give you advice what institution to apply at, if you are looking at a genuine F1 visa application you should be identifying what you want to study first and then do research as to what is an appropriate college to apply to. Of course you will also need to satisfy the other visa conditions including showing adequate funding etc.

yes, of course i know we will have to comeback when our f1 visa expires. but we would be re united with our family for some time before ultimately we would have to come back to our country as it will take 8 yrs as you mentioned to get us a green card. But the thing now is should i apply for f1 now before my parents go to the US or after they arrive there, which scenario has more chances for us getting f1 visa. and 2 years degree programs in colleges would be good for us to apply right ??

 

[mianusama723]

Hi @mianusama723, if you go to the ceac status check (please google it as I can't put the link here) and enter your case number, how many enteries do yo see? So, for example, if we assume you have 2 younger siblings and you mentioned that you and your sister are 27 and 25, do you see 4 enteries or do you see 6 enteries (including parents)? The reason for my question is to determine whether the consulate had already decided your (and your sister's) disqualification before you went in on interview day or after you went in.
Also, I found your CSPA age to be 24 years 9 months and 22 days; and so any of your siblings that qualified had to be born on or after October 12th, 2000. Being born on or before Oct 11th 2000 disqualifies in your case.
Unfortunately, the Department of State doesn't go by the USCIS policy manual, they have their own, namely: the foreign affairs manual, and until that normalizes the legal language with USCIS, CSPA will be calculated by the old formula.
Please do check the case status and let us know how many enteries you see and what it says next to each (Issued, Refused....)...it would be interesting to know because certainly the NVC included you in the interview letter and should have had your enteries there (yours and yours sisters).

does it matter now that they decided before or after the interview and what effect does this have on our f4 case and any other category that we would apply next ???

 

[SusieQQQ]

yes, of course i know we will have to comeback when our f1 visa expires. but we would be re united with our family for some time before ultimately we would have to come back to our country as it will take 8 yrs as you mentioned to get us a green card. But the thing now is should i apply for f1 now before my parents go to the US or after they arrive there, which scenario has more chances for us getting f1 visa. and 2 years degree programs in colleges would be good for us to apply right ??

I already answered how you should be choosing a course, assuming a genuine desire to study in the US. I am not advising on back door entry routes, which “what is the college to pick to maximize F1 and when should I do it” sounds like.

does it matter now that they decided before or after the interview and what effect does this have on our f4 case and any other category that we would apply next ???

No, it makes no difference. I’m not sure what that poster’s point was. Sometimes embassies include children on interview letters when they have aged out (then they will be denied during the interview), and sometimes they don’t include them even though they are still protected by CSPA (in which case they should ask to be added back). You were aged out, the only difference if you had been included in the interview is that it would have cost you some hundreds of dollars extra to find that out. Makes no difference for any next case, assuming that would be your parents filing for you, which would be based on the situation at time of filing.

 

[ForeverLearner]

I already answered how you should be choosing a course, assuming a genuine desire to study in the US. I am not advising on back door entry routes, which “what is the college to pick to maximize F1 and when should I do it” sounds like.

No, it makes no difference. I’m not sure what that poster’s point was. Sometimes embassies include children on interview letters when they have aged out (then they will be denied during the interview), and sometimes they don’t include them even though they are still protected by CSPA (in which case they should ask to be added back). You were aged out, the only difference if you had been included in the interview is that it would have cost you some hundreds of dollars extra to find that out. Makes no difference for any next case, assuming that would be your parents filing for you, which would be based on the situation at time of filing.

@mianusama723 I hear your frustration, and understand why you've answered me with a question.

@SusieQQQ It would not have cost anything extra, they have already fronted the IV DS-260 fees back in 2020 when NVC contacted them to start filing. The children will always be included in the interview letter. what I am asking about here is the consulate/embassy case review that happens upon getting the case from NVC, it's usually within a week from that transfer. If the children's case is still there, and says "Refused" next to it, it means that the case was adjudicated the interview and deemed ineligible for an IV issuance. If the children's cases aren't even in that hit list, then they got dropped pre-interview, and it warrants the question "IF or WHEN the FAM's directive becomes in tandem with the USCIS policy manual, can these children write the embassy/consulate and to look at their DS-260 that never received a final ruling and apply the new CSPA interpretation to the derivatives' favor".
@mianusama723 I am also wondering, what did the consular officer tell you? "You're denied an IV". Or, "You're found ineligible because albeit the CSPA, you're still found to be over 21. Or, was it rather "I am sorry, I don't have your file..." and left you to your interpretation to what might have happened. I am rather interested to know if the later scenario is what happened, in which case you didn't really receive a ruling and you weren't served any decision...this would mostly happen, if your case was dropped pre-interview.

 

[SusieQQQ]

It would not have cost anything extra,

They would have had to get their civil documents and medical done in order to attend the interview. Document fees are probably negligible but the medical is usually a few hundred dollars. They already knew they had aged out even with CSPA so what would be the point?

again, uscis manual has nothing to do with any visa processed overseas. There is no “new” CSPA interpretation;there is a different method of dealing with adjustment of status cases vs visas at consulates. There is the doctrine of consular non reviewability too. I’m not really sure what you think the point of all that post is as there is simply nothing for the poster to do about it. They aged out. They were not eligible to receive visas.

 

[ALBERTYJAP]

tengo una sobrina con caso f4 que le rechazaron la visa de inmigrante....mi pregunta es si fue correcta su rechazo y si esta o no dentro de la edad CSPA?,estos son sus datos:

FECHA DE NACIMIENTO: 16/03/2000
FECHA DE PRIORIDAD: 26/07/2007
FECHA DE APROBACIÓN:05/07/2020
¡¡¡Gracias por su respuesta!!!

 

[Sm1smom]

tengo una sobrina con caso f4 que le rechazaron la visa de inmigrante....mi pregunta es si fue correcta su rechazo y si esta o no dentro de la edad CSPA?,estos son sus datos:

FECHA DE NACIMIENTO: 16/03/2000
FECHA DE PRIORIDAD: 26/07/2007
FECHA DE APROBACIÓN:05/07/2020
¡¡¡Gracias por su respuesta!!!

Post in English only please. This is an English speaking forum.

 

[ForeverLearner]

@SusieQQQ Since you're referring to the ancillary fees, I believe we are in the same page.
And indeed, it's the fact that these consular decisions are not appealable (non-reviewable as you coined) that makes what I am asking about all the more important. Hear me again, if no ruling and no decision was made and no paper was served, it means that there was no closure on the DS-260. If next week, DOS CA sends a cable to the posts notifying them that "age at visa availability" means "age at Filing Date of chart B" or "age at NVC case creation", the door would still be open to the 2 girls to email the consulate or even email LegalNet for an advisory opinion if they don't hear back from the consulate.
Furthermore, if these 2 girls land in the US and want to adjust status, I think they have a clear path to immigration since this gives them a favorable application of the CSPA as derivatives of their parent's I-130 as the underlaying basis.
I don't see why their parents have to refile an I-130 and place them again to the end of the line of the F2B and decline all marriage proposals to stay in it until, at least, 2029 when their parents naturalize...then maybe, they would trade that off for an F3...

 

[ForeverLearner]

tengo una sobrina con caso f4 que le rechazaron la visa de inmigrante....mi pregunta es si fue correcta su rechazo y si esta o no dentro de la edad CSPA?,estos son sus datos:

FECHA DE NACIMIENTO: 16/03/2000
FECHA DE PRIORIDAD: 26/07/2007
FECHA DE APROBACIÓN:05/07/2020
¡¡¡Gracias por su respuesta!!!

@ALBERTYJAP
Please stick to English or use google translate like I did below and only post the English portion.
I have 3 questions:
1- what country are you from?
2- And are you sure that the approval date of the I-130 is July 5th 2020? NOT 2010?
3- When did you pay the Immigrant Visa fee?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[SusieQQQ]

@SusieQQQ Since you're referring to the ancillary fees, I believe we are in the same page.
And indeed, it's the fact that these consular decisions are not appealable (non-reviewable as you coined) that makes what I am asking about all the more important. Hear me again, if no ruling and no decision was made and no paper was served, it means that there was no closure on the DS-260. If next week, DOS CA sends a cable to the posts notifying them that "age at visa availability" means "age at Filing Date of chart B" or "age at NVC case creation", the door would still be open to the 2 girls to email the consulate or even email LegalNet for an advisory opinion if they don't hear back from the consulate.
Furthermore, if these 2 girls land in the US and want to adjust status, I think they have a clear path to immigration since this gives them a favorable application of the CSPA as derivatives of their parent's I-130 as the underlaying basis.
I don't see why their parents have to refile an I-130 and place them again to the end of the line of the F2B and decline all marriage proposals to stay in it until, at least, 2029 when their parents naturalize...then maybe, they would trade that off for an F3...

You’re living in some dream world. fine for you to live there but you shouldn’t be giving people false hope based on some fantasy. And I’m not wasting my time on this dead end conversation any more.

 

[ForeverLearner]

You’re living in some dream world. fine for you to live there but you shouldn’t be giving people false hope based on some fantasy. And I’m not wasting my time on this dead end conversation any more.

That's fine if you're self-limiting like that. Be it my dreams or your nightmares, the only arbitrator is the law and law rulings are explicit and get served black on white. That was all I asked, did she get served or not? And if she got served a refusal, she could still apply under other jurisdiction, namely, when on US soil file an I-485.
This indeed should NOT serve her as advice but rather as an incentive to consult with a law practitioner. Best of luck @mianusama723, you now have the opinion and the other opinion.

 

[SusieQQQ]

tengo una sobrina con caso f4 que le rechazaron la visa de inmigrante....mi pregunta es si fue correcta su rechazo y si esta o no dentro de la edad CSPA?,estos son sus datos:

FECHA DE NACIMIENTO: 16/03/2000
FECHA DE PRIORIDAD: 26/07/2007
FECHA DE APROBACIÓN:05/07/2020
¡¡¡Gracias por su respuesta!!!

When you repost in English, please also double-check the approval date. I believe you made a common mistake, which is to use the date of notification from NVC to submit documents etc as the approval date. The approval date is what will be stated on a form I797, notice of action, that the petitioner would have received. As I recall, most petitions filed around that time were getting approved within about a year.

 

[ALBERTYJAP]

I have a niece with an F4 case who was denied an immigrant visa... My question is if her rejection was correct and if she is within the CSPA age or not? This is her information:

DATE OF BIRTH: 03/16/2000
DATE OF PRIORITY: 07/26/2007
DATE OF APPROVAL: 07/05/2020
Thank you for your response!!!

 

[SusieQQQ]

When you repost in English, please also double-check the approval date. I believe you made a common mistake, which is to use the date of notification from NVC to submit documents etc as the approval date. The approval date is what will be stated on a form I797, notice of action, that the petitioner would have received. As I recall, most petitions filed around that time were getting approved within about a year.

I have a niece with an F4 case who was denied an immigrant visa... My question is if her rejection was correct and if she is within the CSPA age or not? This is her information:

DATE OF BIRTH: 03/16/2000
DATE OF PRIORITY: 07/26/2007
DATE OF APPROVAL: 07/05/2020
Thank you for your response!!!

is a form like the attached where you are getting the approval date from?

 

[lenta32]

Unfortunately, you have aged out. The relevant current date for the case is chart A, so July 2024. My understanding of the memo you refer to is that Chart B is only relevant as a current date for applicants filing adjustment of status (you haven’t been specific but I am assuming you are doing consular processing). You only had a little under 2 years 9 months age protection, so would have had to be a little under 23 years 9 months old as at July to qualify for CSPA. On the positive side, once your parents have their green cards, they can sponsor you for a green card under the F2B category (but note that you’ll need to remain unmarried, at least until they become citizens, to remain eligible in this category).

Hi Susie, can you pls comment what makes you think that February 14, 2023 USCIS policy alert is only applicable for applicants filing adjustment of status? Because in Chapter 7 - Child Status Protection Act it is written:
CSPA applies to both noncitizens abroad who are applying for an immigrant visa through the Department of State (DOS) and noncitizens physically present in the United States who are applying for adjustment of status through USCIS. This chapter primarily focuses on the impact of CSPA on adjustment applicants, though the same principles generally apply to noncitizens seeking an immigrant visa through DOS.[8]

I know that in practice yes, DOS ignores this USCIS CPSA policy change (no reflection of this change on 9 FAM) but for me it looks really strange as means that applicants on the same category recieve different treatment.

 

[SusieQQQ]

Hi Susie, can you pls comment what makes you think that February 14, 2023 USCIS policy alert is only applicable for applicants filing adjustment of status? Because in Chapter 7 - Child Status Protection Act it is written:
CSPA applies to both noncitizens abroad who are applying for an immigrant visa through the Department of State (DOS) and noncitizens physically present in the United States who are applying for adjustment of status through USCIS. This chapter primarily focuses on the impact of CSPA on adjustment applicants, though the same principles generally apply to noncitizens seeking an immigrant visa through DOS.[8]

I know that in practice yes, DOS ignores this USCIS CPSA policy change (no reflection of this change on 9 FAM) but for me it looks really strange as means that applicants on the same category recieve different treatment.

USCIS policy does not apply to cconsulates. The DOS FAM is what they use. Yes, there are various differences in how adjustment applicants are treated vs consulates, such as here more leeway in when you are considered “current” and the fact that you can appeal a denial at a USCIS FO but not one at a consulate.