Education Requirement Clarification Please

[mandb]

Hi All.

My Spouse has been selected for processing and we are due to have an interview very soon.
I haven't been able to find an answer that directly addresses our circumstance.... I was wondering if anybody here has a definitive answer on this:

She did not complete high school, but has since competed a Diploma.



The Diploma is in Project Management, which is a Job Zone 4 Specialist Occupation on the O*Net Database, SVP rating of 7 or Higher (Which is what is needed to be approved for a DV based on work experience).

She is also currently studying a Post Graduate Degree. (Yet to complete).

My question is:
Will the U.S. Consulate consider the Diploma equivalent to, or higher than a High School Diploma and will it satisfy the education requirement for DV ?

Any advise from someone in the know, or with similar previous experince would be very much appreciated.
Thanks....

 

[Britsimon]

Hi All.

My Spouse has been selected for processing and we are due to have an interview very soon.
I haven't been able to find an answer that directly addresses our circumstance.... I was wondering if anybody here has a definitive answer on this:

She did not complete high school, but has since competed a Diploma.



The Diploma is in Project Management, which is a Job Zone 4 Specialist Occupation on the O*Net Database, SVP rating of 7 or Higher (Which is what is needed to be approved for a DV based on work experience).

She is also currently studying a Post Graduate Degree. (Yet to complete).

My question is:
Will the U.S. Consulate consider the Diploma equivalent to, or higher than a High School Diploma and will it satisfy the education requirement for DV ?

Any advise from someone in the know, or with similar previous experince would be very much appreciated.
Thanks....

OK first of all - don't confuse the two ways to qualify. The O'Net database is used where you are trying to qualify through work experience - which would require 2 years out of the last 5 years experience at the qualifying level. The diploma in PM does not by itself qualify your spouse on work experience - only work experience can do that.

Now the diploma sounds like it may have been sufficient to qualify your spouse post grad study. That "normally" means the diploma would be a Bachelors equivalent. However, it is possible to get matriculated on a post grad course without having a bachelors level degree - so you have to be careful.

So - in this case I would collect everything (transcripts, passes and so on) for the High school education. Then everything for the Diploma and finally the post grad course. You could choose to gamble that the evidence will stand up for itself OR commission an academic equivalency report from a qualified and recognised source.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_equivalency_evaluation

 

[Vichel]

Hard to say, be careful. There was a sad case in DV2011, an Australian selectee who did not complete 12 years of high school (he did 10 years) but went on to do a 4 year vocational degree and another year for some Certificate and was denied at his interview. He had an email from the education department saying his schooling was more than equivalent to a high school degree and was qualified for University entrance, as well as a few professional evaluations from the US. The consular officer said it looked like a GED which was not sufficient. Now it could have been that the CO was just being a jerk but they're pretty fussy about you having the exact documents they ask for, not equivalents. I don't know how similar that case was to yours but just something to be wary about. Ringing the Consulate would be helpful for you.

The only time that a High School Degree is not asked for at an interview, that I know of, is if you have a Bachelor degree or beyond. And I agree with britsimon that you need actual work experience not the paper that shows you are qualified to get that job. Good luck!

 

[Sm1smom]

Hard to say, be careful. There was a sad case in DV2011, an Australian selectee who did not complete 12 years of high school (he did 10 years) but went on to do a 4 year vocational degree and another year for some Certificate and was denied at his interview. He had an email from the education department saying his schooling was more than equivalent to a high school degree and was qualified for University entrance, as well as a few professional evaluations from the US. The consular officer said it looked like a GED which was not sufficient. Now it could have been that the CO was just being a jerk but they're pretty fussy about you having the exact documents they ask for, not equivalents. I don't know how similar that case was to yours but just something to be wary about. Ringing the Consulate would be helpful for you.

The only time that a High School Degree is not asked for at an interview, that I know of, is if you have a Bachelor degree or beyond. And I agree with britsimon that you need actual work experience not the paper that shows you are qualified to get that job. Good luck!

+1 .........

 

[Britsimon]

Hard to say, be careful. There was a sad case in DV2011, an Australian selectee who did not complete 12 years of high school (he did 10 years) but went on to do a 4 year vocational degree and another year for some Certificate and was denied at his interview. He had an email from the education department saying his schooling was more than equivalent to a high school degree and was qualified for University entrance, as well as a few professional evaluations from the US. The consular officer said it looked like a GED which was not sufficient. Now it could have been that the CO was just being a jerk but they're pretty fussy about you having the exact documents they ask for, not equivalents. I don't know how similar that case was to yours but just something to be wary about. Ringing the Consulate would be helpful for you.

The only time that a High School Degree is not asked for at an interview, that I know of, is if you have a Bachelor degree or beyond. And I agree with britsimon that you need actual work experience not the paper that shows you are qualified to get that job. Good luck!

Yep this one is sounding (sadly) a bit marginal. I looked at the diploma below for instance. It looks like one could gain this diploma with around 350 hours of study (and 1 year of work experience). That just isn't enough to argue that the diploma referred to below is equivalent to a bachelors.

http://www.brightonsbm.com/professi...nagement.htm?gclid=CK3A2_G267cCFa7JtAodF14Alw

However, I do believe these things do have a human factor. The CO doing the interview may be a jerk or may be a nice person. Either way it is a matter of making it easy for them to tick a box on a form, so if you think you can persuade them then it might be worth your time going through the process BUT be prepared that you might be rejected.

I hope there is something more that can strengthen your case.....

 

[mandb]

Thankyou both for the responses.
Does this mean you feel the diploma itself does not meet the education criteria for DV even though it is recognised in Australia as higher than a high school education ?

If so, do you think the academic equivalency report could be the way to go ?

Alternatively, we could look at Work Experience....
She has done 8 months as a "Project Manager" and almost 2 years as a "Solutions Manager" within a Government Organisation.
The "Solutions Manager" role was doing the same tasks as Project Manager, just under a different job title.
Would this be a better way to go ?
If so. what documentation would be needed ?

 

[Britsimon]

Thankyou both for the responses.
Does this mean you feel the diploma itself does not meet the education criteria for DV even though it is recognised in Australia as higher than a high school education ?

If so, do you think the academic equivalency report could be the way to go ?

Alternatively, we could look at Work Experience....
She has done 8 months as a "Project Manager" and almost 2 years as a "Solutions Manager" within a Government Organisation.
The "Solutions Manager" role was doing the same tasks as Project Manager, just under a different job title.
Would this be a better way to go ?
If so. what documentation would be needed ?

YESSSS! Do the work experience route. The job title isn't too relevant although both titles have the word management which is good. As you say the tasks being performed by the person in a role are important to establish that the role as defined on O'Net is the role being performed. In terms of documentation, you'll need CV/Resume, Job descriptions, Job offer letters and so on - anything that can help build the complete picture of the role being performed - and then the diploma is relevant as being something that was a factor in getting the job.

Also being a government organisation will help. There may be a grade/level that is defined for the role - information about that grade/level would be worth having.

Perhaps others could chime in here to explain how to make sure the connection to a qualifying job is indisputable.

The outlook has changed from gloomy to bright!

 

[mandb]

YESSSS! Do the work experience route. The job title isn't too relevant although both titles have the word management which is good. As you say the tasks being performed by the person in a role are important to establish that the role as defined on O'Net is the role being performed. In terms of documentation, you'll need CV/Resume, Job descriptions, Job offer letters and so on - anything that can help build the complete picture of the role being performed - and then the diploma is relevant as being something that was a factor in getting the job.

Also being a government organisation will help. There may be a grade/level that is defined for the role - information about that grade/level would be worth having.

Perhaps others could chime in here to explain how to make sure the connection to a qualifying job is indisputable.

The outlook has changed from gloomy to bright!

Thankyou so much Britsimon....

We were hoping the work experience would be a smoother way to satisfy the requirements.
I was just a little worried that the job title may be a factor.
Is anyone here able to offer any information based on their experiences ?

 

[mandb]

YESSSS! Do the work experience route. The job title isn't too relevant although both titles have the word management which is good. As you say the tasks being performed by the person in a role are important to establish that the role as defined on O'Net is the role being performed. In terms of documentation, you'll need CV/Resume, Job descriptions, Job offer letters and so on - anything that can help build the complete picture of the role being performed - and then the diploma is relevant as being something that was a factor in getting the job.

Also being a government organisation will help. There may be a grade/level that is defined for the role - information about that grade/level would be worth having.

Perhaps others could chime in here to explain how to make sure the connection to a qualifying job is indisputable.

The outlook has changed from gloomy to bright!

Britsimon,
We are currently compiling as much evidence as possible to demonstrate the relevant work experience....
We should be able to provide all of the things you have mentioned.

She has around 4 to 5 years experience across 3 jobs performing the tasks:
* Project Manager
* Solutions Manager
* Project Officer

Do you think also providing a letter from each of her position supervisors / superiors (on official letterhead) explaining that she has experience undertaking all the Project Management tasks listed on O*Net would be an acceptable / ideal way to provide evidence ?

 

[Britsimon]

That would be good, but they may not appreciate the boss saying "this matches O'Net" - it sounds a bit contrived and what is their experience to make that judgement? Get letters, but don't have them mention O'Net. Also detailed Job Descriptions would be the best thing. A JD is often written in bullet points explaining the requirements and responsibilities of the job. If you look on O'Net they have similar statements. The trick is to make sure the JD ties well to the job being matched on the O'Net database - although I am NOT suggesting creating false JDs. The JDs for those roles probably already exist - her managers or perhaps HR should have them. Ones from HR are usually quite generic but are useful in explaining the "level" of the role (whether the role managers staff, what level of budget control and so on).

From the titles it sounds like she has a logical progression within the three jobs. The PM role is almost certainly at the right level, but she doesn't have enough time in that role by itself. So, the important one will be the SM role - that has to have a good smattering of the right level tasks and responsibilities similar to a PM role. If that case can be made a nice pack of letters, Job Descriptions, CV, grade explanation within the government, salary levels and so on should do the trick. How solid the case is depends ion the SM role.

By the way, since both ways of qualifying are somewhat problematic, work on both. Do as much as possible on the education route and the work experience route. If you are close (but marginal) on both and IF it comes down to a human decision (which it sometimes does) then it would be a harsh CO that would ignore the combined weight of evidence - but you have to make it "justifiable" for them, since they are responsible for their decisions.

 

[mandb]

That would be good, but they may not appreciate the boss saying "this matches O'Net" - it sounds a bit contrived and what is their experience to make that judgement? Get letters, but don't have them mention O'Net. Also detailed Job Descriptions would be the best thing. A JD is often written in bullet points explaining the requirements and responsibilities of the job. If you look on O'Net they have similar statements. The trick is to make sure the JD ties well to the job being matched on the O'Net database - although I am NOT suggesting creating false JDs. The JDs for those roles probably already exist - her managers or perhaps HR should have them. Ones from HR are usually quite generic but are useful in explaining the "level" of the role (whether the role managers staff, what level of budget control and so on).

From the titles it sounds like she has a logical progression within the three jobs. The PM role is almost certainly at the right level, but she doesn't have enough time in that role by itself. So, the important one will be the SM role - that has to have a good smattering of the right level tasks and responsibilities similar to a PM role. If that case can be made a nice pack of letters, Job Descriptions, CV, grade explanation within the government, salary levels and so on should do the trick. How solid the case is depends ion the SM role.

By the way, since both ways of qualifying are somewhat problematic, work on both. Do as much as possible on the education route and the work experience route. If you are close (but marginal) on both and IF it comes down to a human decision (which it sometimes does) then it would be a harsh CO that would ignore the combined weight of evidence - but you have to make it "justifiable" for them, since they are responsible for their decisions.

Thankyou again for this valuable advice. It is so very much appreciated.
As I mentioned, the SM role covered many of the facets of a PM role in its' basic job description. On top of that, during her time as SM she also did undertake a lot of extra PM tasks over and above the SM duties. Her supervisor has put this in writing previously. (We can provide this reference letter if it will help).
This evidence hepled her to earn a PM diploma through Recognised Prior Learning.

Do you think the fact that she also has PM quals through Project Management Institute (U.S. based organisation) among others and is currently studying the Post Grad stage of an MBA may be helpful to our case ?

 

[Britsimon]

Thankyou again for this valuable advice. It is so very much appreciated.
As I mentioned, the SM role covered many of the facets of a PM role in its' basic job description. On top of that, during her time as SM she also did undertake a lot of extra PM tasks over and above the SM duties. Her supervisor has put this in writing previously. (We can provide this reference letter if it will help).
This evidence hepled her to earn a PM diploma through Recognised Prior Learning.

Do you think the fact that she also has PM quals through Project Management Institute (U.S. based organisation) among others and is currently studying the Post Grad stage of an MBA may be helpful to our case ?

In your case it will all be helpful. I'm a little uncomfortable for you, but the stronger that SM position the better. I've PM'd someone on here for additional input in case I am being to pessimistic/optimistic on your case and also how to present the work experience. I started compiling a work experience case (for my wife, who is the selectee in my case) because I thought originally that one had to be qualified AND have qualifying work experience. However, once I realised the mistake I stopped worrying about the work experience so I haven't gone through the end to end process of preparing that case.

 

[Sm1smom]

Hmmn! An interesting situation we have here.

Just to echo what britsimon and vichel already said, the diploma (though recognised as being higher than a high school education)does not meet the DV educational requirement. I think this diploma will probably be considered to be a vocational degree and vocational degrees do not meet the educational requirement:

DOS Foreign Affairs Manual, Section 9 FAM 42.33 N7.1:
Formal course of elementary and secondary education comparable to completion of 12 years elementary or secondary education in the United States. Because a United States high school education is sufficient in itself to qualify a student to apply for college admission, in order for a foreign education to be equivalent to a United States education, it should be sufficient to allow a student to apply for college admission without further education. Vocational degrees that are not considered a basis for further
academic study will not be considered equivalent to United States high school education.

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/87838.pdf

Going the job experience route is a bit tricky but it could succeed if you guys go well prepared. To qualify on the basis of work experience you need to prove that within the past 5 years, she has at least two years of experience in an occupation that is classified in a Specific Vocational Preparation (SVP) range of 7.0 or higher. You'll need things like her resume, past offers of employment describing proposed job duties, letters from the companies/organizations she worked with in those positions (prefereably from the Managers she worked with), if you can lay hands on the job postings too (or something from the HR dept in addition listing the job duties). Also print out the O* Net job description and have it with you at the time of your interview. Also have Section 9 FAM 42.33 N8 “WORK EXPERIENCE” of the Visa Manual handy to show to your CO. You'll only have one shot - Be ready to plead and prove your case

Thankyou both for the responses.
Does this mean you feel the diploma itself does not meet the education criteria for DV even though it is recognised in Australia as higher than a high school education ?

If so, do you think the academic equivalency report could be the way to go ?

Alternatively, we could look at Work Experience....
She has done 8 months as a "Project Manager" and almost 2 years as a "Solutions Manager" within a Government Organisation.
The "Solutions Manager" role was doing the same tasks as Project Manager, just under a different job title.
Would this be a better way to go ?
If so. what documentation would be needed ?

 

[Britsimon]

Thank you Sm1smom for taking a look and the input!

Mandb - you have your answer. I think there is a chance of failure, but if you do your prep well you can reduce that chance and put the odds in your favour. Good luck!

 

[mandb]

Thank you Sm1smom for taking a look and the input!

Mandb - you have your answer. I think there is a chance of failure, but if you do your prep well you can reduce that chance and put the odds in your favour. Good luck!

Thankyou both for your advice.
We are preparing evrything now and will put together the most thorough and comprehensive file of evidence possible.

 

[sharuka2005]

Education qualification

Dear friends I have primary education that means until grade 10 and 10 years I'm working in United Nations as a driver. So is there any chances for me???????????

 

[SusieQQQ]

Dear friends I have primary education that means until grade 10 and 10 years I'm working in United Nations as a driver. So is there any chances for me???????????

Unfortunately, no. Your education doesn't meet the minimum and and a driver is not a high enough SVP on ONet.