A follow up article......
- Thread starter tusker75
- Start date
Tusker,
Thanks for the beautiful link to these two articles.
I have been reading this Frenchman Francois Gautier's articles for last 2-3 years. And the guy is very balanced in ideas and highly knowledgable and analytical about India and Indianness.
I feel like hugging him for his views and truly see an image of many of my thoughts in his writings.
Thanks for the beautiful link to these two articles.
I have been reading this Frenchman Francois Gautier's articles for last 2-3 years. And the guy is very balanced in ideas and highly knowledgable and analytical about India and Indianness.
I feel like hugging him for his views and truly see an image of many of my thoughts in his writings.
absolutely..........dma_va
This guy is great..........not because he talks about Indianess... but b'coz it makes me realize how we take things for granted.....about India.....
dma_va..........must appreciate your writings skills as well.....(as seen in few of your posts)....
This guy is great..........not because he talks about Indianess... but b'coz it makes me realize how we take things for granted.....about India.....
dma_va..........must appreciate your writings skills as well.....(as seen in few of your posts)....
kiran-koyeli
Registered Users (C)
tusker75 and dma_va, I agree with you guys. I read both his articles this morning. I feel he literally shouts in our ears to stand up for India, I mean in a good sense 
I think he is balanced and seems highly knowledgeable. Rediff has given fresh and new look to Indian news. dma_va, thanks for all the info you share out here.
Cheers,
KK
I think he is balanced and seems highly knowledgeable. Rediff has given fresh and new look to Indian news. dma_va, thanks for all the info you share out here.Cheers,
KK
a follow up article
Dma, Tusker You guys are amazing... I really appreciate your thought process.... and ofcourse I read India abroad I and II... My gosh the depth of knowledge the journalist got on Hinduism is amazing... Well balanced article... Not only describing the issues he is giving solutions... I feel like I found some thing which I was looking for long time... What an awesome guy... Francois Gautier.... I am planning to read all of his articles... You know this is my first posting... All along I have been a lazy silent visitor laughing and feeling the feelings(within me)... I don't know what made me to reply... You guys rekindled my spirts.... Anyhow keep it up guys...
Dma, Tusker You guys are amazing... I really appreciate your thought process.... and ofcourse I read India abroad I and II... My gosh the depth of knowledge the journalist got on Hinduism is amazing... Well balanced article... Not only describing the issues he is giving solutions... I feel like I found some thing which I was looking for long time... What an awesome guy... Francois Gautier.... I am planning to read all of his articles... You know this is my first posting... All along I have been a lazy silent visitor laughing and feeling the feelings(within me)... I don't know what made me to reply... You guys rekindled my spirts.... Anyhow keep it up guys...
patienceGC
Registered Users (C)
I must say
The articles are fantastic pieces of literature to incite religious fundamentalism in India. Something that seems to be lacking! I seem to have misread the article… because kiran seems to think it " shouts in our ears to stand up for India". But all I see is "Hindus"!
The second article starts off with an apparent praise only to talk about slavery. Which country does not have classes? About 3 weeks ago there was a video clip from India in which the "upper class" people were throwing stones at "lower class" people because they were polluting the temple and hence were not allowed in the temple. I don’t think we have the right to talk about other countries especially the one which we want to make our "home". I felt sick to my stomach when I read " India has had an untouchable President". I cannot believe someone still uses the word after all that the Mahatma did. Is that how we refer to a president? It is impossible for America to have a black president because they make up only 12%! As the article mentioned America has not even had a female president so its ridiculous to ask for a black pres. Does having a woman prime minister mean equal opportunities for woman? If yes, Pakisthan has equal rights too! The political system in India is SOLELY based on caste! There are no ideologies. All good people are kicked out because they cannot compete in the barbaric system!
I don’t know about chicken65 but I think its unfair to consideration second generations Indians as sell outs. I see a lot of SGI who come to Indian functions. I am sure people here have seen the Garbas. One SGI told me that she finds comfort in doing desi stuff. She also mentioned that whenever she tried to be with Indian people they kept calling her an ABCD and making her feel bad about something that she cant possibly know.
I don’t know about you guys but my school prayer was a Ganapathi poem. I pitied my muslim and christian friends who had to do the same. There are people who try to narrow the gap but still arent accepted. Jesudas is a singer in south India who probably sings more Hindu songs than Christian songs but still isnt allowed in some carnatic music events because he is a Christian! As a Hindu in India I obviously didn’t mind all that but its not right to say that governments are not religious. Advani does the Rath Yatra doesn’t he? The last time I checked "Vande Mataram" praises Durga!
I totally agree with the authors view on CNN and Yoga. They refuse to give us credit for discovering zero. It does get on my nerves when they mention that Columbus was looking for "Asia"! The so called "Great discoverer" was looking for INDIA! There are many things to be proud about India but being "Indian" is not being "Hindu"! The other religions are part of India an that’s how it should be.
But as a Tamilian I cannot imagine what "India" really is when a chief minister of a state openly and blatantly refuses to comply with Supreme court's directive and challenges the Central government. What is "India"???
The articles are fantastic pieces of literature to incite religious fundamentalism in India. Something that seems to be lacking! I seem to have misread the article… because kiran seems to think it " shouts in our ears to stand up for India". But all I see is "Hindus"!
The second article starts off with an apparent praise only to talk about slavery. Which country does not have classes? About 3 weeks ago there was a video clip from India in which the "upper class" people were throwing stones at "lower class" people because they were polluting the temple and hence were not allowed in the temple. I don’t think we have the right to talk about other countries especially the one which we want to make our "home". I felt sick to my stomach when I read " India has had an untouchable President". I cannot believe someone still uses the word after all that the Mahatma did. Is that how we refer to a president? It is impossible for America to have a black president because they make up only 12%! As the article mentioned America has not even had a female president so its ridiculous to ask for a black pres. Does having a woman prime minister mean equal opportunities for woman? If yes, Pakisthan has equal rights too! The political system in India is SOLELY based on caste! There are no ideologies. All good people are kicked out because they cannot compete in the barbaric system!
I don’t know about chicken65 but I think its unfair to consideration second generations Indians as sell outs. I see a lot of SGI who come to Indian functions. I am sure people here have seen the Garbas. One SGI told me that she finds comfort in doing desi stuff. She also mentioned that whenever she tried to be with Indian people they kept calling her an ABCD and making her feel bad about something that she cant possibly know.
I don’t know about you guys but my school prayer was a Ganapathi poem. I pitied my muslim and christian friends who had to do the same. There are people who try to narrow the gap but still arent accepted. Jesudas is a singer in south India who probably sings more Hindu songs than Christian songs but still isnt allowed in some carnatic music events because he is a Christian! As a Hindu in India I obviously didn’t mind all that but its not right to say that governments are not religious. Advani does the Rath Yatra doesn’t he? The last time I checked "Vande Mataram" praises Durga!
I totally agree with the authors view on CNN and Yoga. They refuse to give us credit for discovering zero. It does get on my nerves when they mention that Columbus was looking for "Asia"! The so called "Great discoverer" was looking for INDIA! There are many things to be proud about India but being "Indian" is not being "Hindu"! The other religions are part of India an that’s how it should be.
But as a Tamilian I cannot imagine what "India" really is when a chief minister of a state openly and blatantly refuses to comply with Supreme court's directive and challenges the Central government. What is "India"???
Well written PatienceGC, I agree with you 100%. You said it all..
Nothing more to add from me..
It is such a relief to hear from people like you when you get a feeling that everyone from our country are religious fundamentalists who confuse being INDIAN with being HINDU. ( after reading other postings.)
Nothing more to add from me..
It is such a relief to hear from people like you when you get a feeling that everyone from our country are religious fundamentalists who confuse being INDIAN with being HINDU. ( after reading other postings.)
aggreed
I totally aggree with you patiencegc.. your posting was awesome..
I dont aggree with the author completely.. Anytime, when some talk about the Indians (NRI) who live in abroad,they all say "Oh no,they are not patriotic,they dont follow our culture". I lose my nerves and want to yell at them "Shut up!!!'..
Those are the people who lives in India without paying the taxes properly. So do you think the author "Francois Gautier" was a strict follwoer of Indiain culture wearing dhoti and kathar shirt..
I have seen so many Indians who live in abroad and contributes a lot to india. We should start writing about nice things which is really going to motivate others rather critisizing and talking about religions.
~Mad
I totally aggree with you patiencegc.. your posting was awesome..
I dont aggree with the author completely.. Anytime, when some talk about the Indians (NRI) who live in abroad,they all say "Oh no,they are not patriotic,they dont follow our culture". I lose my nerves and want to yell at them "Shut up!!!'..
Those are the people who lives in India without paying the taxes properly. So do you think the author "Francois Gautier" was a strict follwoer of Indiain culture wearing dhoti and kathar shirt..
I have seen so many Indians who live in abroad and contributes a lot to india. We should start writing about nice things which is really going to motivate others rather critisizing and talking about religions.
~Mad
we are all son and daughter of this great earth.
I am not a Hindu Fanatic !!! But with reference to patienceGC comments....Take for example since we don't have temples around many places I went to church and bible studies with my friends. People were nice with me and all... They encouraged to ask questions... I kept telling them most of the stuff what you are telling from bible some how i know already via my parents and my religion... I am here just to learn and assocaite nothing more than that... Infact in some difficult situations they were pretty helpful... by doing prayer for me... and all... after some time I started feeling a push from these people asking me to do baptism things like that... You need to become a believer if not you wan't go to heaven and all that... I started asking questions like if believers are only going to heaven the people before before Jesus there should not have been believers by then... That means none of them went to heaven....
Back in home mostly studied in Christian schools... Where It is quite common that I do prayer and everything. Infact time and again I have visited churches and mosque. In viallages muslim culture is mixed with hindu culture. Mostly hindu taking sick children to Mosque and hindu's praying some muslim gods part of Iyyapa yatra. I never seen a christian or muslim in a hindu temple. Eventhough I am not a Hindu fanatic as i said earlier... It questions me....
I think hindu's themselves are not much concerned about their religion but because of the things happening in christianity and muslim it provokes hindus. I guess.....
Because of the fact the we are getting the green card dose n't mean we don't have the rights to question.... America is also land of freedom.... That is the main reason we can talk freely like this....
I am not a Hindu Fanatic !!! But with reference to patienceGC comments....Take for example since we don't have temples around many places I went to church and bible studies with my friends. People were nice with me and all... They encouraged to ask questions... I kept telling them most of the stuff what you are telling from bible some how i know already via my parents and my religion... I am here just to learn and assocaite nothing more than that... Infact in some difficult situations they were pretty helpful... by doing prayer for me... and all... after some time I started feeling a push from these people asking me to do baptism things like that... You need to become a believer if not you wan't go to heaven and all that... I started asking questions like if believers are only going to heaven the people before before Jesus there should not have been believers by then... That means none of them went to heaven....
Back in home mostly studied in Christian schools... Where It is quite common that I do prayer and everything. Infact time and again I have visited churches and mosque. In viallages muslim culture is mixed with hindu culture. Mostly hindu taking sick children to Mosque and hindu's praying some muslim gods part of Iyyapa yatra. I never seen a christian or muslim in a hindu temple. Eventhough I am not a Hindu fanatic as i said earlier... It questions me....
I think hindu's themselves are not much concerned about their religion but because of the things happening in christianity and muslim it provokes hindus. I guess.....
Because of the fact the we are getting the green card dose n't mean we don't have the rights to question.... America is also land of freedom.... That is the main reason we can talk freely like this....
patienceGC
Kudos to you,
If I had to put my thoughts down I could not have done it any better, I have always admired yours and dma-va's Penmanship and eloquence.
And about Columbus being in search of asia, let me ask all doubters, why do they call the Native Americans Indians, Because Columbus thought he was in INDIA.
Kudos to you,
If I had to put my thoughts down I could not have done it any better, I have always admired yours and dma-va's Penmanship and eloquence.
And about Columbus being in search of asia, let me ask all doubters, why do they call the Native Americans Indians, Because Columbus thought he was in INDIA.
kiran-koyeli
Registered Users (C)
patienceGC, I definitely didn't like the articles because it drives Hindus to fundamentalism. If I had thought so, I wouldn't have said so. I felt I understood in a different sense and am merely expressing my understanding of it.
On the pretext of secularism, we many times allow others to take us (Indians - muslims, hindus, christians, sikhs who love India) for granted and misrepresented. I have friends who are christians and muslims and respect them completely. And I feel people must not understand author's view asking others faiths to come back to Hinduism in a fundamentalist way. No, the way I saw it was that he merely says that since it respects other faiths. Again here, I am not finding faults with other religions saying that they do. But author criticises the pratice of religious conversion by enticing poor people with money is not a graceful way to convert them to their religion. And treating others as infidels is not graceful either. I am very skeptical that holy books (all included) teach that their god is the only true god. So the point here is not "religion" or "hinduism". The ideal definition of hinduism, I believe in, says that God is in many forms and shapes to different people. And all this debate of criticising religions does not make sense when people following it don't get its real meaning.
Following is the definition of hinduism given by the author
---
Another strong objection from some readers: religion divides. First let me say Hinduism, as Sri Aurobindo or Vivekananda, or Sri Ramakrishna envisioned it, is not a religion but a living spirituality which has given to the world -- and still gives it today -- wonderful tools: hata-yoga copied all over this planet, meditation, or pranayama.
----
Yes, casteism is still relevant today in India and it will continue to haunt us for many years. I see racism and casteism as a society problem not as a fault in the religion. We, the people create our prejudices and false prides!!
Following passage says that author accepts the wrong doing of hindus and at the same time he is upset that when one simply ignores the past wrong doing by other people!!
--------
Some of you have a point: when I say all Indians settled in the US should regroup themselves under a 'Hindu American banner,' it does look as if I want to exclude Christians, Muslim and Sikh Indians. Indeed, most of the protesting e-mail were from Christians, Muslims and Sikhs. Let's answer the objections from Christians first. One Christian reader tells me: 'Christians have no freedom in India, or else they are killed like Australian missionary Graham Staines.'
There is no denying this was a horrible crime and that its perpetrators should be punished -- and they are in the process of being punished. But this is an isolated case and our friend disregards what the Christians have done to Hindus over centuries
------------
Coming to the aspect of slavery - yes, every country is affected by it. But what I dont agree with is, projection of stereotypical views of India whereas the fallacies of US and other develooped countries downplayed. Yes, I do have a high opinion of many great things accomplished by US and their ideologies. But I wouldnt go to an extent of believing or accepting that they are most ideological of all without any blotches. How many times have we seen US being criticised for its various foreign policies. I have even heard people justifying that by saying that they are very patriotic!! And how is that??
I consider myself as a moderate - one who has visited dargas in the past, know few things about christianity, developed relationships with other faith friends and believe in secularism (not pseudo-secularism as followed by indian political parties). But from what I understood, the author merely gave an analogy of people readily accepting US president swearing on the bible but cry foul when any such thing happens in India. And we term it as "religiously" biased and be politically correct. Why a different measuring yard stick!!
I totally agree with you that there are people who try to bridge the gap and I respect every one of them. Regarding Jesudas, I agree that it is sad but what about Abdul Kalam being welcomed into temples!! So there are always cases leading to such contradictions. And I felt that author was using untouchable only in a sarcastic way as it is a cliche term in any India bashing article. I am not naive or biased to even think that there are no hindus who have fundamentalist views. I abhor the babari masjid demolition. It should never have happened. Hindus actions of violence are not justified and we are caught in this vicious cycle of violence (at least for now). But a thought needs to given as to why we have become more aggressive over the decades. How many times have we seen westerm media mention about the temple ruins and ruthless conquerors mentioned in the same article that criticised the masjid demolition to acknowledge the suffering of hindus. Could it be that hindus feel insecure or enraged by this unfair blame share? Or may be they think that enough is enough and don't like to make past mistakes of being too soft. This is mere introspection on my part to understand the psyche behind it.
patienceGC, I feel the same pain when we are overly criticised just like the way any american feels when they are being criticised. Is that a crime? I can also say no one has a right to comment on India. But that is not how it works. I accept the criticism on India as long as it is fair and constructive. I honestly felt that he was only trying to say that by taking the principles of hinduism (not as a religion but as a living spiritual as it was originally envisioned), we should come together and help our country by accepting its drawbacks. Over the course of time the word religion (a system of principles held to with ardor and faith to guide us through) has been tainted for various reasons. Anyways, I didn't mean to offend anyone but told my point of view or rather, the way I understood it
My 2 cents!!
Peace,
Kiran
On the pretext of secularism, we many times allow others to take us (Indians - muslims, hindus, christians, sikhs who love India) for granted and misrepresented. I have friends who are christians and muslims and respect them completely. And I feel people must not understand author's view asking others faiths to come back to Hinduism in a fundamentalist way. No, the way I saw it was that he merely says that since it respects other faiths. Again here, I am not finding faults with other religions saying that they do. But author criticises the pratice of religious conversion by enticing poor people with money is not a graceful way to convert them to their religion. And treating others as infidels is not graceful either. I am very skeptical that holy books (all included) teach that their god is the only true god. So the point here is not "religion" or "hinduism". The ideal definition of hinduism, I believe in, says that God is in many forms and shapes to different people. And all this debate of criticising religions does not make sense when people following it don't get its real meaning.
Following is the definition of hinduism given by the author
---
Another strong objection from some readers: religion divides. First let me say Hinduism, as Sri Aurobindo or Vivekananda, or Sri Ramakrishna envisioned it, is not a religion but a living spirituality which has given to the world -- and still gives it today -- wonderful tools: hata-yoga copied all over this planet, meditation, or pranayama.
----
Yes, casteism is still relevant today in India and it will continue to haunt us for many years. I see racism and casteism as a society problem not as a fault in the religion. We, the people create our prejudices and false prides!!
Following passage says that author accepts the wrong doing of hindus and at the same time he is upset that when one simply ignores the past wrong doing by other people!!
--------
Some of you have a point: when I say all Indians settled in the US should regroup themselves under a 'Hindu American banner,' it does look as if I want to exclude Christians, Muslim and Sikh Indians. Indeed, most of the protesting e-mail were from Christians, Muslims and Sikhs. Let's answer the objections from Christians first. One Christian reader tells me: 'Christians have no freedom in India, or else they are killed like Australian missionary Graham Staines.'
There is no denying this was a horrible crime and that its perpetrators should be punished -- and they are in the process of being punished. But this is an isolated case and our friend disregards what the Christians have done to Hindus over centuries
------------
Coming to the aspect of slavery - yes, every country is affected by it. But what I dont agree with is, projection of stereotypical views of India whereas the fallacies of US and other develooped countries downplayed. Yes, I do have a high opinion of many great things accomplished by US and their ideologies. But I wouldnt go to an extent of believing or accepting that they are most ideological of all without any blotches. How many times have we seen US being criticised for its various foreign policies. I have even heard people justifying that by saying that they are very patriotic!! And how is that??
I consider myself as a moderate - one who has visited dargas in the past, know few things about christianity, developed relationships with other faith friends and believe in secularism (not pseudo-secularism as followed by indian political parties). But from what I understood, the author merely gave an analogy of people readily accepting US president swearing on the bible but cry foul when any such thing happens in India. And we term it as "religiously" biased and be politically correct. Why a different measuring yard stick!!
I totally agree with you that there are people who try to bridge the gap and I respect every one of them. Regarding Jesudas, I agree that it is sad but what about Abdul Kalam being welcomed into temples!! So there are always cases leading to such contradictions. And I felt that author was using untouchable only in a sarcastic way as it is a cliche term in any India bashing article. I am not naive or biased to even think that there are no hindus who have fundamentalist views. I abhor the babari masjid demolition. It should never have happened. Hindus actions of violence are not justified and we are caught in this vicious cycle of violence (at least for now). But a thought needs to given as to why we have become more aggressive over the decades. How many times have we seen westerm media mention about the temple ruins and ruthless conquerors mentioned in the same article that criticised the masjid demolition to acknowledge the suffering of hindus. Could it be that hindus feel insecure or enraged by this unfair blame share? Or may be they think that enough is enough and don't like to make past mistakes of being too soft. This is mere introspection on my part to understand the psyche behind it.
patienceGC, I feel the same pain when we are overly criticised just like the way any american feels when they are being criticised. Is that a crime? I can also say no one has a right to comment on India. But that is not how it works. I accept the criticism on India as long as it is fair and constructive. I honestly felt that he was only trying to say that by taking the principles of hinduism (not as a religion but as a living spiritual as it was originally envisioned), we should come together and help our country by accepting its drawbacks. Over the course of time the word religion (a system of principles held to with ardor and faith to guide us through) has been tainted for various reasons. Anyways, I didn't mean to offend anyone but told my point of view or rather, the way I understood it
My 2 cents!!
Peace,
Kiran
I don't think these articles r trying to incite Hindu Fundamentalsim.
The author has presented the cases for why some religions have always wanted to dominate the world to the extent that despite being in such a vast numbers and active at all strata of world social, political and economical lives, Hindus(as a people and nation, not as a religion only) r still considered as being non-existent, un-important to even debates in these non-Hindu people's lives.
Let me make it clear, to me my religion is my own personal business and I don't want to influence anybody just coz I am a Hindu. But, on the other hand, I am also not willing to accept that just because I have remained tolerant, adjusting, sociable and even pliant to these centuries of looting, plundering, raping and conversions of my homeland, I will continue to remain so. No I won't. If I am not stepping on somebody's toes, no one has a right to do the same. Enough is enough.
It's very easy to argue against a centuries old trend thru a single instance overlooking the overall and true picture (for example, saying Hindus also killed Muslims in Gujarat, so they r also equally communalist). But will not try to understand, why Hindus retaliated when they did.
Why did u not ask these questions for 2 decades from Kasmiri/Paki Militants just coz u r not one of the looted and deprived Hindu.
Mr. Missman for sure is an educated person. Just coz he visited a Church a few times, people there started preaching him about Heaven etc. Bullshit.
And u know why this happens. Coz these simpletons at the church don't even know if Missman has a religion (Hindusim doesn't just exist for them).
And this is the whole point Gautier is trying to make. He is not asking Hindu's to become fundamentalist. He is saying that u shoud show that u exist in this world. And let people realize that there r crores of people in this world who follow certain principles which r not only worth looking at but worth emulating.
One thing is clear to me. If I don't stand up and speak that I also exist, no one is going to come to speak for me. And speak, I don't have to thru fundamentalism.
To begin with, as Gautier suggested and I have been saying again and again on this forum, we educated Indians need to be together in our thoughts, agree to an Indian (not Hindu alone) ideology, culture and let the world be aware of it.
It's important that we keep our identity intact wherever we r. Else, time is a big hatchman. It won't take but a few decades of cultural, social and comfort influence, and we won't even know who we actually r.
And mind u, if u think, that u will become a part of American/Euro main social etc. streamline during this time just coz u have been here for 30-40 years, u will be making a big mistake (ur brown color will always tell u apart unless u would want to change that too for your following generations).
The author has presented the cases for why some religions have always wanted to dominate the world to the extent that despite being in such a vast numbers and active at all strata of world social, political and economical lives, Hindus(as a people and nation, not as a religion only) r still considered as being non-existent, un-important to even debates in these non-Hindu people's lives.
Let me make it clear, to me my religion is my own personal business and I don't want to influence anybody just coz I am a Hindu. But, on the other hand, I am also not willing to accept that just because I have remained tolerant, adjusting, sociable and even pliant to these centuries of looting, plundering, raping and conversions of my homeland, I will continue to remain so. No I won't. If I am not stepping on somebody's toes, no one has a right to do the same. Enough is enough.
It's very easy to argue against a centuries old trend thru a single instance overlooking the overall and true picture (for example, saying Hindus also killed Muslims in Gujarat, so they r also equally communalist). But will not try to understand, why Hindus retaliated when they did.
Why did u not ask these questions for 2 decades from Kasmiri/Paki Militants just coz u r not one of the looted and deprived Hindu.
Mr. Missman for sure is an educated person. Just coz he visited a Church a few times, people there started preaching him about Heaven etc. Bullshit.
And u know why this happens. Coz these simpletons at the church don't even know if Missman has a religion (Hindusim doesn't just exist for them).
And this is the whole point Gautier is trying to make. He is not asking Hindu's to become fundamentalist. He is saying that u shoud show that u exist in this world. And let people realize that there r crores of people in this world who follow certain principles which r not only worth looking at but worth emulating.
One thing is clear to me. If I don't stand up and speak that I also exist, no one is going to come to speak for me. And speak, I don't have to thru fundamentalism.
To begin with, as Gautier suggested and I have been saying again and again on this forum, we educated Indians need to be together in our thoughts, agree to an Indian (not Hindu alone) ideology, culture and let the world be aware of it.
It's important that we keep our identity intact wherever we r. Else, time is a big hatchman. It won't take but a few decades of cultural, social and comfort influence, and we won't even know who we actually r.
And mind u, if u think, that u will become a part of American/Euro main social etc. streamline during this time just coz u have been here for 30-40 years, u will be making a big mistake (ur brown color will always tell u apart unless u would want to change that too for your following generations).
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Guys... Wake up... We still can't dwell on the feelings once India was a great country... US it self the biggest economy in the entire world... If you see CNN or FOX most of the news is from US because there is a lot going on here... Media cheers the local accomplishments and achievements.. In a way that is why they are great.. Not blaming complaining self cheering and having fun...
We need to prove to the world... How great we are... No whining.... Who invented zero... Who invented yoga... Columbus was looking for India... If columbus would have found India all indians would have been obsolete now... I guess we should be happy he did n't find us... Let us move on... Let us make things happen.
I am so proud of things happening in software field.... Also intellectual explosion is happenig in india.... US being great country helping us in lot of different ways... If you look at most of the graduate schools 100% of the students are indians using scholarship from US gov...Second country for number of green cards for applied and approved...
Ofcourse US is not perfect... we being here let us take the best of both worlds and move on....
We need to prove to the world... How great we are... No whining.... Who invented zero... Who invented yoga... Columbus was looking for India... If columbus would have found India all indians would have been obsolete now... I guess we should be happy he did n't find us... Let us move on... Let us make things happen.
I am so proud of things happening in software field.... Also intellectual explosion is happenig in india.... US being great country helping us in lot of different ways... If you look at most of the graduate schools 100% of the students are indians using scholarship from US gov...Second country for number of green cards for applied and approved...
Ofcourse US is not perfect... we being here let us take the best of both worlds and move on....
PatienceGC
I was totally pleasantly surprised reading your post. It totally reflect my opinion. I am not a Christian or a Muslim, But I totally understand their feelings in India only after coming to the US. They are treated second class in India.
I am totally amazed at people talking about women liberation in India citing example of Indira Ghandhi. Hey, Guess what! I am comman middle class woman from India. I lived 26 years in INdia. I have travelled in public buses and tasted the so called women rights and liberation. Bullshit! I wasn't even treated well my own family members because I was a woman. Though highly educated and ever made more money than any men in my family. Don't tell me, it depends on people. Bullshit! All my women friends had to go thru' the same thing.
I love India. But as a person, I feel I am much happier in the U.S than in India. I feel like I have some respect here and also my self esteem has gone up. I feel really free being here.
I know life will be nice when I return because I have money. But I don't think I will be happy going back. But I am sure if have to, I will. This time I will be more strong to fight for my rights.
I am proud that you are Tamilian. First time ever to hear such unique view points from a Tamilian!
I was totally pleasantly surprised reading your post. It totally reflect my opinion. I am not a Christian or a Muslim, But I totally understand their feelings in India only after coming to the US. They are treated second class in India.
I am totally amazed at people talking about women liberation in India citing example of Indira Ghandhi. Hey, Guess what! I am comman middle class woman from India. I lived 26 years in INdia. I have travelled in public buses and tasted the so called women rights and liberation. Bullshit! I wasn't even treated well my own family members because I was a woman. Though highly educated and ever made more money than any men in my family. Don't tell me, it depends on people. Bullshit! All my women friends had to go thru' the same thing.
I love India. But as a person, I feel I am much happier in the U.S than in India. I feel like I have some respect here and also my self esteem has gone up. I feel really free being here.
I know life will be nice when I return because I have money. But I don't think I will be happy going back. But I am sure if have to, I will. This time I will be more strong to fight for my rights.
I am proud that you are Tamilian. First time ever to hear such unique view points from a Tamilian!
gcwait2002,
I empathize with u for what u have gone thru in ur life. But I wonder why a personal experience should so much influence ur judgement about two whole countries (India and USA).
As far as India, we easily color our thoughts in terms of relating a social malaise as a religious one. As per ur undertanding, Muslims and Christians in India r second class coz of their religions, but u r a first class resident (not even a citizen) in USA coz u have all comforts/liberty of life. That's not a fair way of judging two "countries and their people".
No doubt, USA is the best civic society but that's coz people have enough comforts in life to worry more about their private lives rather than venting their day to day grouse thru molesting some body in public transport (which is again a highly abhorable social malaise).
Please, for Godsake, if u can't change what u went thru, don't
use what u have got now as the only reason for ur getting opiniated in what u said.
Think over, and work to eradicate what u suffered so that other's who don't have the same priviledge as u now, don't go thru it.
Are u also proud that u r a Californian or Pennsylvanian or Georgian or.....................................Alaskan?
I empathize with u for what u have gone thru in ur life. But I wonder why a personal experience should so much influence ur judgement about two whole countries (India and USA).
As far as India, we easily color our thoughts in terms of relating a social malaise as a religious one. As per ur undertanding, Muslims and Christians in India r second class coz of their religions, but u r a first class resident (not even a citizen) in USA coz u have all comforts/liberty of life. That's not a fair way of judging two "countries and their people".
No doubt, USA is the best civic society but that's coz people have enough comforts in life to worry more about their private lives rather than venting their day to day grouse thru molesting some body in public transport (which is again a highly abhorable social malaise).
Please, for Godsake, if u can't change what u went thru, don't
use what u have got now as the only reason for ur getting opiniated in what u said.
Think over, and work to eradicate what u suffered so that other's who don't have the same priviledge as u now, don't go thru it.
Are u also proud that u r a Californian or Pennsylvanian or Georgian or.....................................Alaskan?
Last edited by a moderator:
kiran-koyeli
Registered Users (C)
gcwait0902, I agree that the author claim about women liberation is far stretched citing Indira Gandhi as an example. And, also agree that there are atrocities committed against women. But I strongly disagree with you by branding everyone in India is like that. I feel that shows utmost disrespect to the ones who do treat woman as equal. I understand your anger but I am very surprised when you say it doesnt depend on the person!!
dma_va and Kian
Sorry to say this. But I don't need anybody's empathy or sympathy. I had been tough in difficult situations and will be tough ever. Fortunately,I was successful in life. Not everyone has that kind of mind set. My friend committed sucide in India. Do you know why? Her husband treated her badly and she had two small boys. I still remember her face in my dreams. I sympathsied just like you But I wasn't able to help her. I can write just numerous cases from just my own experience.None of anybody's sympathy is going to wipe out what we as woman are going thru' in India. I am greatful for those who like to treat woman equally or better. But I am only talking about 80% cases and yes from my Experience and what I had seen. Ofcourse there are exceptions. Can we feel happy about the tall building in the metropolitan cities, when 70% of the people live in rural villages?
Well it is my opinion anyway. I do know there were girls used come in cars with mini skirts, and went to the same college that I went to. I am sure they had better lives. But I did notice that 80% of my classmates were from middle class and they had go thru' the same stuff that I had to go thru'. well, I am talking about that 80%.
I have no power to change anything. I don't even have the fighting spirits for such things. I have done that and got myself burnt. I am a simple person who have strong opinion about life , religion and how I should live. I want people around me be happy irrespective of their religion caste or whatever they are. Simply put, I don't see that in India and no, I am not Ghandhi to sacrifice my life for fighting for cause.
I don't even know why I am writing all these....You don't have to agree.
dma_va
No I can not relate to pensylvanian or californian, I am still Indian in my mind and spirit.
Sorry to say this. But I don't need anybody's empathy or sympathy. I had been tough in difficult situations and will be tough ever. Fortunately,I was successful in life. Not everyone has that kind of mind set. My friend committed sucide in India. Do you know why? Her husband treated her badly and she had two small boys. I still remember her face in my dreams. I sympathsied just like you But I wasn't able to help her. I can write just numerous cases from just my own experience.None of anybody's sympathy is going to wipe out what we as woman are going thru' in India. I am greatful for those who like to treat woman equally or better. But I am only talking about 80% cases and yes from my Experience and what I had seen. Ofcourse there are exceptions. Can we feel happy about the tall building in the metropolitan cities, when 70% of the people live in rural villages?
Well it is my opinion anyway. I do know there were girls used come in cars with mini skirts, and went to the same college that I went to. I am sure they had better lives. But I did notice that 80% of my classmates were from middle class and they had go thru' the same stuff that I had to go thru'. well, I am talking about that 80%.
I have no power to change anything. I don't even have the fighting spirits for such things. I have done that and got myself burnt. I am a simple person who have strong opinion about life , religion and how I should live. I want people around me be happy irrespective of their religion caste or whatever they are. Simply put, I don't see that in India and no, I am not Ghandhi to sacrifice my life for fighting for cause.
I don't even know why I am writing all these....You don't have to agree.
dma_va
No I can not relate to pensylvanian or californian, I am still Indian in my mind and spirit.
I liked what Girish Rajput said .."Take it easy and let us celebrate life! "
I liked what Girish Rajput said .."Take it easy and let us celebrate life! "
That's what I try to do. At the same time I try learning a few things from the Americans.
Some of you might not have read Narayan Murthy's lecture
"Sometimes West is Best, at least Better "
Some lessons from elsewhere: for starters, extend your family values beyond the boundaries of your home
- N R Narayana Murthy
As is said in the Vedas: Man can live individually, but can survive only collectively. Hence, our challenge is to form a progressive community by balancing the interests of the individual and that of the society. To meet this we need to develop a value system where people accept modest sacrifices for the common good.
A value system is the protocol for behaviour that enhances the trust, confidence and commitment of members of the community. It goes beyond the domain of legality—it is about decent and desirable behaviour. Further, it includes putting the community interests ahead of your own.
There are two pillars of the cultural value system: loyalty to family and loyalty to community. One should not be in isolation to the other, because, successful societies are those which combine both harmoniously.
As an Indian, I am proud to be part of a culture which has deep-rooted family values. This is the essence of Indian values and one of our key strengths. Our families act as a critical support mechanism for us. Unfortunately, our attitude towards family life is not reflected in our attitude towards community behaviour. From littering the streets to corruption to breaking of contractual obligations, we are apathetic towards the common good.
The primary difference between the West and us is that, there, people have a much better societal orientation. In the West—the US, Canada, Europe, Australia, New Zealand—individuals understand that they have to be responsible towards their community. They care more for the society than we do. Further, they generally sacrifice more for the society than us. Quality of life is enhanced because of this.
Consider some of the lessons that we Indians can learn from the West:
Respect for the public good: In the West, there is respect for the public good. For instance, parks free of litter, clean streets, public toilets free of graffiti—all these are instances of care for the public good. On the contrary, in India, we keep our houses clean and water our gardens everyday but, when we go to a park, we do not think twice before littering the place.
Attitude to corruption: In India, corruption, tax evasion, cheating and bribery have eaten into our vitals. Corruption, as we see in India, is another example of putting the interest of oneself, and at best that of one’s family, above that of the society.
Public apathy: Apathy in solving community matters has held us back from making progress, which is otherwise within our reach. We see serious problems around us but do not try to solve them. We behave as if the problems do not exist or are somebody else’s. On the other hand, in the West, people solve societal problems proactively.
There are several examples of our apathetic attitude. (i) For instance, all of us are aware of the problem of drought in India. More than 40 years ago, Dr K L Rao, an irrigation expert, suggested creation of a water grid connecting all the rivers in North and South India, to solve this problem. Unfortunately, nothing has been done about this.
(ii) The story of power shortage in Bangalore is another instance. In 1983, it was decided to build a thermal power plant to meet Bangalore’s power requirements. Unfortunately, we have still not started it.
(iii) The Milan subway in Bombay is in a deplorable state for the past 40 years and no action has been taken.
To quote another example, considering the constant travel required in the software industry; five years ago, I had suggested a 240-page passport. This would eliminate frequent visits to the passport office. In fact, we are ready to pay for it. However, I am yet to hear from the ministry of external affairs on this. We, Indians, would do well to remember Thomas Hunter’s words: Idleness travels very slowly, and poverty soon overtakes it.
What could be the reason for this? We were ruled by foreigners for over a thousand years. Thus, we have always believed that public issues belonged to some foreign ruler and that we have no role in solving them. We have lost the will to proactively solve our own problems and got used to executing someone else’s orders. Our decision-makers look to somebody else to take decisions. Unfortunately, there is nobody to look up to, and this is the tragedy.
Our intellectual arrogance has also not helped our society. I have travelled extensively, and in my experience, have not come across another society where people are as contemptuous of better societies as we are, with as little progress as we have achieved. No other society gloats so much about the past as we do, with as little current accomplishment.
This is not a new phenomenon, but at least a thousand years old. For instance, Al Barouni, the famous Arabic logician and traveller of the 10th century, who spent about 30 years in India from 997 AD to around 1027 AD, referred to this trait of Indians. According to him, during his visit, most Indian pundits considered it below their dignity even to hold arguments with him. In fact, on a few occasions when a pundit was willing to listen to him, and found his arguments to be very sound, he invariably asked Barouni: which Indian pundit taught these smart things!
At the same time, everyday, in the newspapers, you will find numerous claims from our leaders that ours is the greatest nation. These people would do well to remember Thomas Carlyle’s words: ‘‘The greatest of faults is to be conscious of none.’’ If we have to progress, we have to listen to people who have performed better than us, learn from them and perform better than them. We continue to rationalise our failures. No other society has mastered this art as well as we have. Obviously, this is an excuse to justify our incompetence, corruption, and apathy.
Another interesting attribute, which we Indians can learn from the West, is their accountability. Irrespective of your position, in the West, you are held accountable for what you do. However, in India, the more ‘important’ you are, the less answerable you are. For instance, a senior politician once declared that he ‘forget’ to file his tax returns for 10 consecutive years—and he got away with it. There are over 100 loss-making public sector units in India. Nevertheless, I have not seen action taken for bad performance against top managers in these organisations.
In the West, each person is proud about his or her labour that raises honest sweat. On the other hand, in India, we tend to overlook the significance of those who are not in professional jobs. We have a mindset that reveres only supposedly intellectual work. For instance, I have seen many engineers, fresh from college, who only want to do cutting-edge work and not work that is of relevance to business and the country.
Yet another lesson to be learnt from the West, is their professionalism in dealings. The common good being more important than personal equations, people do not let personal relations interfere with their professional dealings. They don’t hesitate to chastise a colleague, even if he is a personal friend, for incompetent work. In India, we tend to view even work interactions from a personal perspective. We are the most ‘thin-skinned’ society in the world—we see insults where none is meant.
In India, we consider our marriage vows as sacred. We are willing to sacrifice in order to respect our marriage vows. However, we do not extend this to the public domain. For instance, India had an unfavourable contract with Enron. Instead of punishing the people responsible for negotiating this, we reneged on the contract—this was much before we came to know about the illegal activities at Enron.
To quote another instance, I had given recommendations to several students for the national scholarship for higher studies in US universities. Most of them did not return to India even though contractually they were obliged to spend five years after their degree in India. In fact, according to a professor at a reputed US university, the maximum default rate for student loans is among Indians—all of these students pass out in flying colours and land lucrative jobs, yet they refuse to pay back their loans. Thus, their action has made it difficult for the students after them, from India, to obtain loans.
Further, we Indians do not display intellectual honesty. For example, our political leaders use mobile phones to tell journalists on the other side that they do not believe in technology!
To borrow Gandhi’s words: There is enough in this world for everyone’s need, but not enough for everyone’s greed. Let us work towards a society where we would do unto others what we would have others do unto us. Let us all be responsible citizens who make our country a great place to live.
We have to extend our family values beyond the boundaries of our home. Let us work towards maximum welfare of the maximum people—‘‘Samasta janaanaam sukhino bhavantu’’.
(Excerpts from a lecture delivered at the Lal Bahadur Shastri Institute of Management in New Delhi on October 1)
I liked what Girish Rajput said .."Take it easy and let us celebrate life! "
That's what I try to do. At the same time I try learning a few things from the Americans.
Some of you might not have read Narayan Murthy's lecture
"Sometimes West is Best, at least Better "
Some lessons from elsewhere: for starters, extend your family values beyond the boundaries of your home
- N R Narayana Murthy
As is said in the Vedas: Man can live individually, but can survive only collectively. Hence, our challenge is to form a progressive community by balancing the interests of the individual and that of the society. To meet this we need to develop a value system where people accept modest sacrifices for the common good.
A value system is the protocol for behaviour that enhances the trust, confidence and commitment of members of the community. It goes beyond the domain of legality—it is about decent and desirable behaviour. Further, it includes putting the community interests ahead of your own.
There are two pillars of the cultural value system: loyalty to family and loyalty to community. One should not be in isolation to the other, because, successful societies are those which combine both harmoniously.
As an Indian, I am proud to be part of a culture which has deep-rooted family values. This is the essence of Indian values and one of our key strengths. Our families act as a critical support mechanism for us. Unfortunately, our attitude towards family life is not reflected in our attitude towards community behaviour. From littering the streets to corruption to breaking of contractual obligations, we are apathetic towards the common good.
The primary difference between the West and us is that, there, people have a much better societal orientation. In the West—the US, Canada, Europe, Australia, New Zealand—individuals understand that they have to be responsible towards their community. They care more for the society than we do. Further, they generally sacrifice more for the society than us. Quality of life is enhanced because of this.
Consider some of the lessons that we Indians can learn from the West:
Respect for the public good: In the West, there is respect for the public good. For instance, parks free of litter, clean streets, public toilets free of graffiti—all these are instances of care for the public good. On the contrary, in India, we keep our houses clean and water our gardens everyday but, when we go to a park, we do not think twice before littering the place.
Attitude to corruption: In India, corruption, tax evasion, cheating and bribery have eaten into our vitals. Corruption, as we see in India, is another example of putting the interest of oneself, and at best that of one’s family, above that of the society.
Public apathy: Apathy in solving community matters has held us back from making progress, which is otherwise within our reach. We see serious problems around us but do not try to solve them. We behave as if the problems do not exist or are somebody else’s. On the other hand, in the West, people solve societal problems proactively.
There are several examples of our apathetic attitude. (i) For instance, all of us are aware of the problem of drought in India. More than 40 years ago, Dr K L Rao, an irrigation expert, suggested creation of a water grid connecting all the rivers in North and South India, to solve this problem. Unfortunately, nothing has been done about this.
(ii) The story of power shortage in Bangalore is another instance. In 1983, it was decided to build a thermal power plant to meet Bangalore’s power requirements. Unfortunately, we have still not started it.
(iii) The Milan subway in Bombay is in a deplorable state for the past 40 years and no action has been taken.
To quote another example, considering the constant travel required in the software industry; five years ago, I had suggested a 240-page passport. This would eliminate frequent visits to the passport office. In fact, we are ready to pay for it. However, I am yet to hear from the ministry of external affairs on this. We, Indians, would do well to remember Thomas Hunter’s words: Idleness travels very slowly, and poverty soon overtakes it.
What could be the reason for this? We were ruled by foreigners for over a thousand years. Thus, we have always believed that public issues belonged to some foreign ruler and that we have no role in solving them. We have lost the will to proactively solve our own problems and got used to executing someone else’s orders. Our decision-makers look to somebody else to take decisions. Unfortunately, there is nobody to look up to, and this is the tragedy.
Our intellectual arrogance has also not helped our society. I have travelled extensively, and in my experience, have not come across another society where people are as contemptuous of better societies as we are, with as little progress as we have achieved. No other society gloats so much about the past as we do, with as little current accomplishment.
This is not a new phenomenon, but at least a thousand years old. For instance, Al Barouni, the famous Arabic logician and traveller of the 10th century, who spent about 30 years in India from 997 AD to around 1027 AD, referred to this trait of Indians. According to him, during his visit, most Indian pundits considered it below their dignity even to hold arguments with him. In fact, on a few occasions when a pundit was willing to listen to him, and found his arguments to be very sound, he invariably asked Barouni: which Indian pundit taught these smart things!
At the same time, everyday, in the newspapers, you will find numerous claims from our leaders that ours is the greatest nation. These people would do well to remember Thomas Carlyle’s words: ‘‘The greatest of faults is to be conscious of none.’’ If we have to progress, we have to listen to people who have performed better than us, learn from them and perform better than them. We continue to rationalise our failures. No other society has mastered this art as well as we have. Obviously, this is an excuse to justify our incompetence, corruption, and apathy.
Another interesting attribute, which we Indians can learn from the West, is their accountability. Irrespective of your position, in the West, you are held accountable for what you do. However, in India, the more ‘important’ you are, the less answerable you are. For instance, a senior politician once declared that he ‘forget’ to file his tax returns for 10 consecutive years—and he got away with it. There are over 100 loss-making public sector units in India. Nevertheless, I have not seen action taken for bad performance against top managers in these organisations.
In the West, each person is proud about his or her labour that raises honest sweat. On the other hand, in India, we tend to overlook the significance of those who are not in professional jobs. We have a mindset that reveres only supposedly intellectual work. For instance, I have seen many engineers, fresh from college, who only want to do cutting-edge work and not work that is of relevance to business and the country.
Yet another lesson to be learnt from the West, is their professionalism in dealings. The common good being more important than personal equations, people do not let personal relations interfere with their professional dealings. They don’t hesitate to chastise a colleague, even if he is a personal friend, for incompetent work. In India, we tend to view even work interactions from a personal perspective. We are the most ‘thin-skinned’ society in the world—we see insults where none is meant.
In India, we consider our marriage vows as sacred. We are willing to sacrifice in order to respect our marriage vows. However, we do not extend this to the public domain. For instance, India had an unfavourable contract with Enron. Instead of punishing the people responsible for negotiating this, we reneged on the contract—this was much before we came to know about the illegal activities at Enron.
To quote another instance, I had given recommendations to several students for the national scholarship for higher studies in US universities. Most of them did not return to India even though contractually they were obliged to spend five years after their degree in India. In fact, according to a professor at a reputed US university, the maximum default rate for student loans is among Indians—all of these students pass out in flying colours and land lucrative jobs, yet they refuse to pay back their loans. Thus, their action has made it difficult for the students after them, from India, to obtain loans.
Further, we Indians do not display intellectual honesty. For example, our political leaders use mobile phones to tell journalists on the other side that they do not believe in technology!
To borrow Gandhi’s words: There is enough in this world for everyone’s need, but not enough for everyone’s greed. Let us work towards a society where we would do unto others what we would have others do unto us. Let us all be responsible citizens who make our country a great place to live.
We have to extend our family values beyond the boundaries of our home. Let us work towards maximum welfare of the maximum people—‘‘Samasta janaanaam sukhino bhavantu’’.
(Excerpts from a lecture delivered at the Lal Bahadur Shastri Institute of Management in New Delhi on October 1)
Girish,
U said u don't want to be in this discussion. But infact, u did contribute on this thread by putting ur views. Ain't that a way of discussing.
Why is a discussion always considered to be fightful? It can be healthy as well and informative too. And this tread has so far remained so.
One can try to keep decency in a thread despite being in disagreements with the other person. Why do we want to avoid talking about something just for the fear of textual abuse by someone. If somebody (abuse) does that, there r ways to handle that.
I don't think the cause of this discussion is a foreign author writing it. It could have been anybody else, we all included.
I am aghast when some people call it hypocrisy doing a discussion here. Why don't they take this forum as another tool to bring more people under same umbrella thru thoughts and ideas.
Besides, one could still be contributing to the welfare of less fortunate ones without singing about it from rooftops.
U said u don't want to be in this discussion. But infact, u did contribute on this thread by putting ur views. Ain't that a way of discussing.
Why is a discussion always considered to be fightful? It can be healthy as well and informative too. And this tread has so far remained so.
One can try to keep decency in a thread despite being in disagreements with the other person. Why do we want to avoid talking about something just for the fear of textual abuse by someone. If somebody (abuse) does that, there r ways to handle that.
I don't think the cause of this discussion is a foreign author writing it. It could have been anybody else, we all included.
I am aghast when some people call it hypocrisy doing a discussion here. Why don't they take this forum as another tool to bring more people under same umbrella thru thoughts and ideas.
Besides, one could still be contributing to the welfare of less fortunate ones without singing about it from rooftops.
Last edited by a moderator: