3 years degree EB3, 140 at NSC - please advice

[Sheila R Danzig]

denial

I have a 3 year Bachelors and 2 year Masters degree from India. My labor was approved by PBEC after almost 5 years of painful wait. When we were ready to file I-140, I read here that people with 3 year degrees have problems. My lawyer was confident that I would not have this problem as my labor requires Masters degree only. He got my degrees evaluated from Trusteforte. When I saw that evaluation, I got very worried. It was such a shabby job The person who evaluated my degrees did a simple cut and paste job and didn't even bother to read it afterwards (there were sentences with some one else' information instead of mine- I had these corrected before submitting it to NSC). Their evaluation essentially stated that my Bachelors and Masters is equal to US Masters. I pointed out to my lawyer that NSC does not like combining degrees and better would be to get just Masters evaluated as equal to Masters but he assured me that it would be ok because we were not combinig 2 Associate degrees to show Bachelors. Anyway, filed I-140 last week with PP. Today got a letter from bastrads at NSC with denial. (No RFE, straight denial).

The main reason they cited was that US Masters requires 6 years college whereas I had 5 years and they referred to "Matter of Shah" (??). Now my lawyer wants to appeal with a new evaluation. I am asking him to get my degrees re-evaluated to show my Bachelors as equal to US Bachelors and Masters equal to US Masters (I am planning get evaluation done by Sheila) and refile under PP.

Anyone knows anyone whose I-140 was approved after refiling with new evaluation? What are the chances of success with refiling? What are my options now? The job I am in has supervisory responsibilities and has to be under EB2. If I had to start all over again with PERM, what should I do make sure that I do not get into this problem again? I'll appreciate any suggestions.

Edit: I wanted to add that my job is in exact same field as my degrees are, and the company I am working for is a huge corporation with more than 50,000 employees.

I suggest you file a Motion to Reopen not an appeal. You have a good chance there. If that is not successful file again with a new labor certificate.

There was a time when the masters=masters worked. Then it needed to be a 3 year masters = masters to get approved. More recently I have seen a 3 year masters = masters denied. Frankly I did not understand it.

 

[Sheila R Danzig]

3 year Indian degree

I agree with max2005. 3 years degree might be with less horse powers like the Honda but still its a degree. There are tons of screwed up universities in USA which provides 4 yrs degree but in terms knowledge, a 3yr indian knows better than him/her. I admit that a 4 years US degree man might have little bit extra credits and courses than 3 years degree, but still its a less HP BSc degree. And people are working in companies like HP, MS, IBM, GS, Chase with that less horse power degree and earning not a penny less than the US bachelors.

GCcracker

I have done a great deal of research on this subject and examined countless mark sheets and syllabi. Every single 3 year Indian degree has as many, or more, classroom hours as a typical US 4 year degree.

 

[Chhaya]

Eb3-3yrs Bachelors

This Message Is For All Forum Experts Including Sheila. "checkout Times Of India For 8th Nov 2006. Bombay And New Delhi Edition." Then Please Share Your Thoughts. What Does It Mean?

Thanks.

 

[fcukNSC]

I suggest you file a Motion to Reopen not an appeal. You have a good chance there. If that is not successful file again with a new labor certificate.

There was a time when the masters=masters worked. Then it needed to be a 3 year masters = masters to get approved. More recently I have seen a 3 year masters = masters denied. Frankly I did not understand it.

Is MOTR similar to appeal? From what I have heard, appeal process takes long time. Is MOTR better than refiling? Thanks.

 

[Sheila R Danzig]

3 year degrees being accepted by US masters programs

This Message Is For All Forum Experts Including Sheila. "checkout Times Of India For 8th Nov 2006. Bombay And New Delhi Edition." Then Please Share Your Thoughts. What Does It Mean?

Thanks.

We have been referencing this study in our evaluations since last year. It means that US universities are starting to wake up and see that the 3 year Indian degree is comparable to a US bachelor's degree.

 

[A0001]

Can you - Please address it

Your argument are excellent but your evaluations are not changing NSC position on denials. Why?
NONE reported their success on denial cases. WHY, Please address it?


While coming to Success full stories with new labor Filings…in the new PERM system DOL was handled the educational issue with number of option to employer to choose alternate education in section H of labor form as bellow.

new system Employer can choose 3 year degree also in alternate area. That’s Y there is no denials with PERM labors at all.

H. Job Opportunity Information (Where work will be performed)
1. Primary worksite (where work is to be performed) address 1
4. Education: minimum level required:
None High School Associate’s Bachelor’s
4-A. If Other is indicated in question 4, specify the education required:
4-B. Major field of study
7. Is there an alternate field of study that is acceptable? No
7-A. If Yes, specify the major field of study:
8. Is there an alternate combination of education and experience that is acceptable?
8-A. If Yes, specify the alternate level of education required:
None High School Associate’s Bachelor’s Master’s Doctorate Other
8-B. If Other is indicated in question 8-A, indicate the alternate level of education required:
8-C. If applicable, indicate the number of years experience acceptable in question 8:
9. Is a foreign educational equivalent acceptable? Yes No


OLD system employer did not have freedom to choose the education

Column 14 of Labor form is the minimum level of education required
1) A BOX for Number of Year of college
2) Another BOX for College degree required

I have done a great deal of research on this subject and examined countless mark sheets and syllabi. Every single 3 year Indian degree has as many, or more, classroom hours as a typical US 4 year degree.

 

[anilt75]

--------------
Hey anil,
i was wondering no congrats from you? maybe you were busy scolding "celestial beings" on thE forum!

Yes, same labor was used.
So, no no need to wait for approval and I'll just file for the extn and reap the benefits! Thanks again, anil.

And also, the 3 yr extensions are indefinite, right?

M

---Congratualtions Maansi28!! Yes I got distracted by an argument here.

It's just that people come here to look for solutions. I got so much help from this forum that all immigration attornies put together may not be able to provide.

People with families and extraordinary careers, after waiting for eons of years to get to I-140 stage, face outright denials due to this stupid education issue. Last thing they need here is a pompous lecture on who is a real graduate and who is not.

As of now, my understanding is that 3-year H1b extensions will continue till your visa date becomes current.

Good luck.

 

[anilt75]

Anil,

please respond for my message i sent email from this forum.

Surabhi

--Surabhi, I responded to your email via my hotmail account. Check it out!

 

[fcukNSC]

Your argument are excellent but your evaluations are not changing NSC position on denials. Why?
NONE reported their success on denial cases. WHY, Please address it?


While coming to Success full stories with new labor Filings…in the new PERM system DOL was handled the educational issue with number of option to employer to choose alternate education in section H of labor form as bellow.

new system Employer can choose 3 year degree also in alternate area. That’s Y there is no denials with PERM labors at all.

H. Job Opportunity Information (Where work will be performed)
1. Primary worksite (where work is to be performed) address 1
4. Education: minimum level required:
None High School Associate’s Bachelor’s
4-A. If Other is indicated in question 4, specify the education required:
4-B. Major field of study
7. Is there an alternate field of study that is acceptable? No
7-A. If Yes, specify the major field of study:
8. Is there an alternate combination of education and experience that is acceptable?
8-A. If Yes, specify the alternate level of education required:
None High School Associate’s Bachelor’s Master’s Doctorate Other
8-B. If Other is indicated in question 8-A, indicate the alternate level of education required:
8-C. If applicable, indicate the number of years experience acceptable in question 8:
9. Is a foreign educational equivalent acceptable? Yes No


OLD system employer did not have freedom to choose the education

Column 14 of Labor form is the minimum level of education required
1) A BOX for Number of Year of college
2) Another BOX for College degree required

Does this mean that if PERM application states that Masters degree with 3 years Bachelors is acceptable, then I-140 can be approved under EB2?

 

[fcukNSC]

Doesn't you Labor allow for combination of edu and exp? I do not know how the re-evaluation would work but my suggestion would be not to loose your old priority date. If EB2 is not going to work for you in this case atleast try to get it approved in EB3 and once that is approved you file new PERM LC and port this old PD to your new case. With this you can atleast protect your priority date.

My labor requires an MS degree - no mention of experience or combination. Is it still possible to do it in EB3?

 

[fcukNSC]

anilt75

Can you comment on my case please? I am getting depressed day by day reading more about this issue. Seems like I do not have a way out. I would hate to do that but if I had to start all over, what do I need to do (other than doing another 4 year Bachelors ) to get my i-140 approved in EB2? What should I ask my lawyers to specifically put in labor application so that my 3 years Bachelors and 2 years MS can get through under EB2? If you have any other suggestions, I'll really appreciate it.

PS: From what I have been reading, this 3-year degree has been an issue at NSC for several years. When majority of the US universities accept the 3 year degree, I am surprised that no one has used that argument to bring a suit against NSC.

I have a 3 year Bachelors and 2 year Masters degree from India. My labor was approved by PBEC after almost 5 years of painful wait. When we were ready to file I-140, I read here that people with 3 year degrees have problems. My lawyer was confident that I would not have this problem as my labor requires Masters degree only. He got my degrees evaluated from Trusteforte. When I saw that evaluation, I got very worried. It was such a shabby job The person who evaluated my degrees did a simple cut and paste job and didn't even bother to read it afterwards (there were sentences with some one else' information instead of mine- I had these corrected before submitting it to NSC). Their evaluation essentially stated that my Bachelors and Masters is equal to US Masters. I pointed out to my lawyer that NSC does not like combining degrees and better would be to get just Masters evaluated as equal to Masters but he assured me that it would be ok because we were not combinig 2 Associate degrees to show Bachelors. Anyway, filed I-140 last week with PP. Today got a letter from bastrads at NSC with denial. (No RFE, straight denial).

The main reason they cited was that US Masters requires 6 years college whereas I had 5 years and they referred to "Matter of Shah" (??). Now my lawyer wants to appeal with a new evaluation. I am asking him to get my degrees re-evaluated to show my Bachelors as equal to US Bachelors and Masters equal to US Masters (I am planning get evaluation done by Sheila) and refile under PP.

Anyone knows anyone whose I-140 was approved after refiling with new evaluation? What are the chances of success with refiling? What are my options now? The job I am in has supervisory responsibilities and has to be under EB2. If I had to start all over again with PERM, what should I do make sure that I do not get into this problem again? I'll appreciate any suggestions.

Edit: I wanted to add that my job is in exact same field as my degrees are, and the company I am working for is a huge corporation with more than 50,000 employees.

 

[maansi28]

My labor requires an MS degree - no mention of experience or combination. Is it still possible to do it in EB3?

why do you say that "My labor requires an MS degree"?

is it because "education minimum level required" -- says Masters for you? what does section 14 say (ETA 9089 form)?

 

[LaborCleared]

its tough to judge with the limited information you provided from your LC. If combination is allowed on your LC then your case can smoothly sail thru in EB3 though I dont know about EB2. I am exactly in same boat as you. I am planning to file my New LC in EB2 and the 3 attorneys confirmed my case can get past in EB2 with 3 year B.Com and 2 year MBA + 5 years of exp. after MBA. But this has to be a careful and tactical words draft in both the job ads and LC. However careful we are, NSC may still come back on 3 year degree issue. In that event I shall file the same case in EB3 claiming my old PD of 2001.

IN the last resort file it in EB3 and save your PD which is 5 years old. This is very useful.

Good Luck.

My labor requires an MS degree - no mention of experience or combination. Is it still possible to do it in EB3?

 

[anilt75]

anilt75

Can you comment on my case please? I am getting depressed day by day reading more about this issue. Seems like I do not have a way out. I would hate to do that but if I had to start all over, what do I need to do (other than doing another 4 year Bachelors ) to get my i-140 approved in EB2? What should I ask my lawyers to specifically put in labor application so that my 3 years Bachelors and 2 years MS can get through under EB2? If you have any other suggestions, I'll really appreciate it.

PS: From what I have been reading, this 3-year degree has been an issue at NSC for several years. When majority of the US universities accept the 3 year degree, I am surprised that no one has used that argument to bring a suit against NSC.

--Based on my understanding, if you are combining degrees to show that it meets job's minimum educational requirement(bachelor's or master's degree), then it must be explicitly specified in the Labor ,and also, it should be pursued under EB3 category.

For EB2, combining degrees to be equivalent to masters/bachelors wont fly. Regardless of whether Labor allows it or not. There are some exceptional cases that got overlooked and got approved though.

I really feel bad that you waited 5 years to get to this point. I was depressed about my case for a long time too. But it is what it is.

You may try the option of equating 3-year degree to 4-year degree and Msc from India to MS from US university. Try to file it online and dont go for PP. I guess the case may have chances of going to Texas Service Center. TSC is lenient on this issue.

All said and done, if I were you, I'd start a backup labor with job requirements that suit my qualifications and NSC's take on them.
For the most part, combination of degrees is not allowed in EB2. I would go EB3 route or do a masters in US.

 

[fcukNSC]

IN the last resort file it in EB3 and save your PD which is 5 years old. This is very useful.

I am sorry I didn't quite understand it. Are you saying that I should get a new labor certified under EB3 and then use priority date from my old labor? Can it be done?

Regarding my current labor application, it simply states MS degree under educational requirement and then in the next column, it lists field of specialization. Every other column is just empty - no mention of combination or experience etc.

 

[fcukNSC]

--Based on my understanding, if you are combining degrees to show that it meets job's minimum educational requirement(bachelor's or master's degree), then it must be explicitly specified in the Labor ,and also, it should be pursued under EB3 category.

We never had any intention of combining degrees. It was that stupid evaluator who sort of did a combined evaluation of my Bachelors and Masters to equate it to US Masters. I brought it up with my lawyer that evaluation stated that I had Bachelors and Masters degree which was equal to a US Masters degree. I thought it would be better to say that my Bachelors was equal to US Bachelors and Masters was equal to US Masters but my lawyer brushed my concerns aside. I did not object too strongly as I thought that he was more experienced and would know better.

For EB2, combining degrees to be equivalent to masters/bachelors wont fly. Regardless of whether Labor allows it or not. There are some exceptional cases that got overlooked and got approved though.

Does it mean that no matter how my labor is worded, I can never qualify under EB2 (other than getting Sheila's evaluation to show 3=4 but that is again a hit and miss kind of approach)?

I really feel bad that you waited 5 years to get to this point. I was depressed about my case for a long time too. But it is what it is.

You may try the option of equating 3-year degree to 4-year degree and Msc from India to MS from US university. Try to file it online and dont go for PP. I guess the case may have chances of going to Texas Service Center. TSC is lenient on this issue.

Are you saying that I can try refiling online with the same labor but with new evaluation?

All said and done, if I were you, I'd start a backup labor with job requirements that suit my qualifications and NSC's take on them.
For the most part, combination of degrees is not allowed in EB2. I would go EB3 route or do a masters in US.

Can you elaborate on how I can go EB3 route> Are you implying that my Bachelors and Masters can be equated to US Bachelors? Wouldn't that be combining again?
Thanks for your help.

 

[meraharapatta]

10 + 3 Year Diploma + 3 year BE

My education is

10 (SSC) + 3 (3 Year Engineering Diploma) + 3 (BE -Bachelor of Engineering)

Note that BE is 4 -year degree and I got 1 year exemption as I had Diploma and admitted directly to 2 nd Year of BE.

My I140 (EB2) is filed @ NSC

Anybody with similar education applied @ NSC ????

 

[anilt75]

Does it mean that no matter how my labor is worded, I can never qualify under EB2 (other than getting Sheila's evaluation to show 3=4 but that is again a hit and miss kind of approach)?

--Yes. From what I understand, combination of degrees to show bachelor's equivalency or master's equivalency is not allowed in EB2.

"Are you saying that I can try refiling online with the same labor but with new evaluation?"

--I think maansi on this forum did it.Contact her. She will guide you on this.

"Can you elaborate on how I can go EB3 route> Are you implying that my Bachelors and Masters can be equated to US Bachelors? Wouldn't that be combining again? "

--For EB3, combination is allowed if labor allows for it. For EB2, they dont care whether labor allows combination or not.They simply dont accept combination under EB2.

 

[surabhi]

Anil,

I saw ur mail..That is not in ETA. just ( * or equivalent) in Column 15.

then what the chance?

S

Does it mean that no matter how my labor is worded, I can never qualify under EB2 (other than getting Sheila's evaluation to show 3=4 but that is again a hit and miss kind of approach)?

--Yes. From what I understand, combination of degrees to show bachelor's equivalency or master's equivalency is not allowed in EB2.

"Are you saying that I can try refiling online with the same labor but with new evaluation?"

--I think maansi on this forum did it.Contact her. She will guide you on this.

"Can you elaborate on how I can go EB3 route> Are you implying that my Bachelors and Masters can be equated to US Bachelors? Wouldn't that be combining again? "

--For EB3, combination is allowed if labor allows for it. For EB2, they dont care whether labor allows combination or not.They simply dont accept combination under EB2.

 

[sarathynp]

Question to Sheila and other experts

I have gone through this forum and looks like lot of interesting discussions.

I want an expert opinion on my case:
My qualification:
10 yrs + 3 years diploma n mech engg + AMIE in mech engg (Section A & B ) + PG diploma in computer appications (1.5 years)Exp 10+ years
MY LC is approved:
column 14:
Education (no of years) left blank
College degree reqired? Master's or Equivalent*
Major field of study: computer science, engg, Biz or related field
Column 15
* Master's degree in computer science, engg, Biz or related field plus 3 yrs of software engg exp or euilvalent )Bachelor's in computer science, engg, Biz or related field follwed by 5 years of progressive engg expertise)


Now I need to apply for I-140 My lawyer says EB3 not EB2.
Can somebody suggest?
Also let me know my AMIE is equivalent to how many years?
Though I am equated to degree based on 3 yr diplma + amie, is it considered as Degree from multiple sources? (everything is engg)

Thanks in advance.