3 years degree EB3, 140 at NSC - please advice

[anilt75]

Hi, My previous post remained unanswered, could some generous soul let me know what should be the wordings on following questions for perm petition for 3 year Diploma in Computer Engg (15 yrs education), 8+ years of experience in related field...I want to re-file perm properly but the lawyer is not getting my point of view with regards to 3 year degree/diploma problem with I-140.


4. Education: minimum level required: None/high school/Associate/Bachelors/Masters/Doctorate/Other

4-A. If Other is indicated in question 4, specify the education required:

4-B. Major field of study:

5. Is training required in the job opportunity? Yes/No

5-A. If Yes, number of months of training required:

5-B. Indicate the field of training:

6. Is experience in the job offered required for the job? Yes/No

6-A. If Yes, number of months experience required:

7. Is there an alternate field of study that is acceptable?

7-A. If Yes, specify the major field of study:

8. Is there an alternate combination of education and experience that is acceptable? Yes/No

8-A. If Yes, specify the alternate level of education required: None/High School/ Associate/Bachelors/Master/Doctorate/Other

8-B. If Other is indicated in question 8-A, indicate the alternate level of education required:

8-C. If applicable, indicate the number of years experience acceptable in question 8:

9. Is a foreign educational equivalent acceptable? Yes/No

10. Is experience in an alternate occupation acceptable? Yes/No

10-A. If Yes, number of months experience in alternate occupation required:

Thanks!!
PK

Hi PK,

I had the same experience with this lawyer who was going to file my case in PERM.I keep talking about I-140 and he cant get his head off of "lets worry about labor now!!".

It is frustrating. But put your foot down and present your case to the lawyer. Tell him to forget about educational requirement completely, just focus on your experience and come up with a job requirement that can get you a labor under skilled worker category.

A job requirement with 8 years of experience in I.T with some type of "other" category education should make your case fly.

No one on the public forums is going to be able to help you fill up the PERM application form for you completely. Certainly not me. It is lawyer's job.

Good luck.

 

[pathan786]

Hi PK,

I had the same experience with this lawyer who was going to file my case in PERM.I keep talking about I-140 and he cant get his head off of "lets worry about labor now!!".

It is frustrating. But put your foot down and present your case to the lawyer. Tell him to forget about educational requirement completely, just focus on your experience and come up with a job requirement that can get you a labor under skilled worker category.

A job requirement with 8 years of experience in I.T with some type of "other" category education should make your case fly.

No one on the public forums is going to be able to help you fill up the PERM application form for you completely. Certainly not me. It is lawyer's job.

Good luck.

Hi Anil,

I have a meeting with lawyer in a couple of days and looking for answers to atleast a couple of questions below:

4. Education: minimum level required
8. Is there an alternate combination of education and experience that is acceptable?
8-A. If Yes, specify the alternate level of education required:
8-B. If Other is indicated in question 8-A, indicate the alternate level of education required:

Lawyer is leaning towards going via Edu Evaluation route to show US bachelors equivalency while I am more interested in re-filing perm correctly. My idea is to present him with "exact" wordings I would like to have for above 3 questions..

Thanks a bunch for your reply and good luck for your case too!

PK

 

[sunil4171]

Labor Cert

Hi Anil,

I have a meeting with lawyer in a couple of days and looking for answers to atleast a couple of questions below:

4. Education: minimum level required
8. Is there an alternate combination of education and experience that is acceptable?
8-A. If Yes, specify the alternate level of education required:
8-B. If Other is indicated in question 8-A, indicate the alternate level of education required:

Lawyer is leaning towards going via Edu Evaluation route to show US bachelors equivalency while I am more interested in re-filing perm correctly. My idea is to present him with "exact" wordings I would like to have for above 3 questions..

Thanks a bunch for your reply and good luck for your case too!

PK

To what extent must the Labor Certificate follow the original ad? I thought that it must match but it seems that it may not have to from what I have read here. Does anyone know?

 

[GCOnly]

--Very true.I did not mean to scare you or sound negative about the outcome. I wish you all the luck. But I was just making it clear that this is not "it-wil-be-approved" case and you would not take it as "granted" but look for other backup options if you wish to do so.

Ofcourse every case has scope for error and subject to denial depnding on the way it is petitioned , processesed and adjudicated. Beneficiary can only hope for the best.However, based on the specific details you mentioned("education vis-a-vis experience") and the RFEs issued by NSC in the past, I would put it as 50/50 case.Could I be wrong? I wish I am wrong and you get an approval.

There is one guy called Ashok from Murthy Forums I guess.He combined education with experience. Got an RFE and got it approved by NSC eventually.But then again there are others. Who just couldnt get past the RFE that clearly stated: "H1B criterion is different from permanent residency. Unlike H1b, experience cannot substitute education."

--Good luck

I understand. Thanks for the clarification though.

 

[Long_Wait_VA]

EB3 to EB2 conversion while filing I-140

Hi all,

I received my labor approval from PBEC last week. My LC was filed under EB3 category. I had 4 years of experience at the time of filing my labor(02/2003). I have been doing the same job since 2003 and gained 3 more years of experience. I am getting ready to file for I -140. My question is, is it possible to file for I-140 under EB2 category since I have total of 7 years experience at this time?

I would greatly any kind of information in this regard.

Thank you.

 

[kalyanforu]

A different kind of 3 year degree question

This is for my wife whose PERM labor app we are preparing to apply.

In India, apart from the regular 4 year engineering degree and the 3 year bachelor or science ( BSc) or arts / commerce(BA, Bcom) degrees, there is another type of engineering degree for polytechnic students ( 10 + 3), wherein these students will skip the first year or engineering and directly join in second year with the regular engineering degree folks. Though they just study 3 years of the engineering degree ( 2,3 and 4) they get the same engineering degree as the 4 year guys.

My wife is one of these degree holders. We got her credentials evaluated by ECE ,equivalent to BS in the US and she got her H1b on which she has been working for the past one year. She has 7 months of experience before joining this job. My questions are,

1. Will this kind of degree face the same kind of scrutiny at the NSC that I have been reading in this post ? I am planning on getting evaluations done by two or three more agencies and include all of them instead of just one valuation. Not sure if this is a good idea or not.
2. What verbiage would be appropriate for her labor app in Eb3 - skilled worker? We are thinking "
Bachelor of Engineering in Comp Sci. or engineering OR 3 years experience in related field". Does this look ok ?

thanks,

 

[anilt75]

anil, you are misleading and don't know this issue.

The attornies are idiots and didn't do proper research.

This has been an issue since 1993. There was a memo between department of labor and uscis on how they were going to treat this issue.

Since 2000 when uscis lost a class action lawsuit in that eb2 people could use bachelors plus five years of experience; they have been very strict on education/experience qualifications and beneficiary meeting the terms of the labor.

The 3 year and combination has been an on going issue with nebraska service center for many years. All one has to do is look at appeals office decisions from 2000 to understand uscis interpretatiion.

Vermont was very easy but the odd case would get denied. Texas didn't bother much and California on the odd case would pick on this issue.

However, Nebraska has always been consistent. When people would appeal, appeals office would back up nebraska position. Now that it is becoming even more sensitive and appeals office issuing memorandum and backupin up nebraska all other offices will follow suit. It will even be a problem for other service centers who have approved in the past and now they may revoke the 140's when it comes to adjudicating 485's.

I would refer people to my previous posting. If one does not have a single 4 year degree and they want to get 140 approved then the permanent labor has to specifically state that combination of education/experience is acceptable. This is the only 100% way of getting approved.

If the labor doesn't have an education component and only work experience then you need to meet the work experience requirement.

I suggest everyone read the appeals office decisions from 2000 onwards and you will be able to understand the situation much better.

http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/lawsregs/admindec3/b6/index.htm

--Huh? I am misleading? Who? I was suggesting to be more cautious about I-140 petition with a 3-year degree than to take it for "granted".

No, not all attornies are idiots as you think nor all adjudicating officers at NSC are smart enough to interpret rules 100% uniformly.

 

[stillwaiiting]

... nor all adjudicating officers at NSC are smart enough to interpret rules 100% uniformly.

You are absolutely right on this. NSC does not have a uniform policy. I think only luck plays an important role.

 

[anilt75]

Hi Anil,

I have a meeting with lawyer in a couple of days and looking for answers to atleast a couple of questions below:

4. Education: minimum level required
8. Is there an alternate combination of education and experience that is acceptable?
8-A. If Yes, specify the alternate level of education required:
8-B. If Other is indicated in question 8-A, indicate the alternate level of education required:

Lawyer is leaning towards going via Edu Evaluation route to show US bachelors equivalency while I am more interested in re-filing perm correctly. My idea is to present him with "exact" wordings I would like to have for above 3 questions..

Thanks a bunch for your reply and good luck for your case too!

PK

PK,

I am not an expert on these matters. Like many of you, I am one of the victims to a sloppy immigration lawfirm and to a screwed up immigration system.

You ask the attorney. You are paying him/her. Also, you seem to be more inclined toward using "alternate education/experience" thing. I dont think that has anything do with substituting "unconventional" degrees. I could be wrong.

If I were you, I would much rather focus on "minimum education requirement" specified in section-4 and see to it that my credentials dont fall short there(I dont have a 4-year degree). This "minimum requirement" is the major pitfall for 3-year degree guys. Overall job requirement must highlight the "experience" required in the field (because that is what I have in abundance).

Again, talk to your attorney. Tell him that the goal is to get the PERM case prepared in such a way that IT DOES NOT REQUIRE BACHELOR'S DEGREE ALONE AS A MINIMUM REQUIREMENT.Your case must read to reflect that you fit for the job based on your experience even if you dont have a bachelor's degree (or its equivalency). Work out the details with your attorney.

Strictly my opinion.Good luck.

 

[anilt75]

Kalyan,

"Though they just study 3 years of the engineering degree ( 2,3 and 4) they get the same engineering degree as the 4 year guys. "

--I guess I know about this degree.A friend of mine from Hyderabad has this degree. He is not in U.S though. This degree is 100% same as regular B.Tech.

"My wife is one of these degree holders. We got her credentials evaluated by ECE ,equivalent to BS in the US and she got her H1b on which she has been working for the past one year."

--H1B criterion is different permanent residency. I got my H1B about 9 years ago based on 3-year computer science degree and a 1-year PG Diploma. I still roll my H1B extensions based on same education evaluation strategy. However, if I use the same strategy at I-140 level, they could throw me in Gitmo.( kidding!)


"1. Will this kind of degree face the same kind of scrutiny at the NSC that I have been reading in this post ? I am planning on getting evaluations done by two or three more agencies and include all of them instead of just one valuation. Not sure if this is a good idea or not."

--Some experienced fellow here suggested that one evaluation is enough and suggestable. Provide the second opinion only when RFE is issued. Reason behind this? There could be minor discrepencies in evaluations done by different agencies.An egg-head officer could go bonkers over such futile things like that.



"2. What verbiage would be appropriate for her labor app in Eb3 - skilled worker? We are thinking "Bachelor of Engineering in Comp Sci. or engineering OR 3 years experience in related field". Does this look ok ?"


--She doesnt seem to have enough experience to qualify for EB2. If I were her, again strictly my opinion, I would definitely pursue this as "Bachelor's degree or equivalent" case. It doesnt matter when she joined the course(2nd year or 3rd year). She was deemed qualified to join in the middle of the engineering course because she had enough credits at the time (polytechnic?) . All said and done, she was awarded 4-year Bachelor's degree.That's all it matters.They transfer/substitute credits at undergraduate level in U.S. It is not a strange concept here.Unless corn-farming NSC officer is totally illterate, he/she should be aware of it as well.If not, a solid explaination to an RFE would straighten the case.

This could be pursued as EB3 case with a degree requirement. I would make sure to include "equivalency" verbiage with bachelor's degree. Please consider all this as my opinions expressed at free time and not as expert opinions. LOL!

Good luck.

 

[kalyanforu]

Kalyan,

"Though they just study 3 years of the engineering degree ( 2,3 and 4) they get the same engineering degree as the 4 year guys. "

--I guess I know about this degree.A friend of mine from Hyderabad has this degree. He is not in U.S though. This degree is 100% same as regular B.Tech.

"My wife is one of these degree holders. We got her credentials evaluated by ECE ,equivalent to BS in the US and she got her H1b on which she has been working for the past one year."

--H1B criterion is different permanent residency. I got my H1B about 9 years ago based on 3-year computer science degree and a 1-year PG Diploma. I still roll my H1B extensions based on same education evaluation strategy. However, if I use the same strategy at I-140 level, they could throw me in Gitmo.( kidding!)


"1. Will this kind of degree face the same kind of scrutiny at the NSC that I have been reading in this post ? I am planning on getting evaluations done by two or three more agencies and include all of them instead of just one valuation. Not sure if this is a good idea or not."

--Some experienced fellow here suggested that one evaluation is enough and suggestable. Provide the second opinion only when RFE is issued. Reason behind this? There could be minor discrepencies in evaluations done by different agencies.An egg-head officer could go bonkers over such futile things like that.



"2. What verbiage would be appropriate for her labor app in Eb3 - skilled worker? We are thinking "Bachelor of Engineering in Comp Sci. or engineering OR 3 years experience in related field". Does this look ok ?"


--She doesnt seem to have enough experience to qualify for EB2. If I were her, again strictly my opinion, I would definitely pursue this as "Bachelor's degree or equivalent" case. It doesnt matter when she joined the course(2nd year or 3rd year). She was deemed qualified to join in the middle of the engineering course because she had enough credits at the time (polytechnic?) . All said and done, she was awarded 4-year Bachelor's degree.That's all it matters.They transfer/substitute credits at undergraduate level in U.S. It is not a strange concept here.Unless corn-farming NSC officer is totally illterate, he/she should be aware of it as well.If not, a solid explaination to an RFE would straighten the case.

This could be pursued as EB3 case with a degree requirement. I would make sure to include "equivalency" verbiage with bachelor's degree. Please consider all this as my opinions expressed at free time and not as expert opinions. LOL!

Good luck.

Thanks Anil. That Helps.

 

[adi_gc]

I-140 denied due to 3year degree issue.MyI-140 was refiled with Sheil's evaluation.

Thanks...

 

[thota]

Hi ADI_GC

Hi ADI_GC

Can you enlight your case more detail. That will help others.

Example in my case EB3 with Three Years degree from INDIA

I applied EB3
My Labor information as below
In H section (Job opportunity Information)
4-A. Education:Minimum Level Required- Bachelors
4-B. Major Field of Study. Computers or Engineering
5. Is training required in the job opportunity? No
6. Is experience in the Job offered required for the job? Yes
6-A. If Yes, number of months experiencve required? 24
7. Is there an alternate of field of Study is acceptable? No
8. Is there an alternate combination of education and experience that is acceptable? No
9. Is a Foreign education equivalent acceptable? Yes
10. Is experience in an alternate occupation aceeptable? No

In my case my HR filed himself without Attorney. He screwed up Labor application. I studied Bachelor of Science (Physics, Electronics, Mathematics) .
4-B. Major Field of Study. Computers or Engineering
7. Is there an alternate of field of Study is acceptable? No

is mentioned. I think that will enough for USCIS to deny my case.
I also did evaluation with Sheila. If my I-140 denied, What do I get blaming Sheila for my HR manager mistake.

Your case details will answer and help may others in this forums. That will answer many of our questions.
Thank you

 

[boston_LC]

Skilled Worker Vs skilled Professional

Hi UN and/or Anil75

one of you mentioned about mentioning "skilled worker" Vs. "skilled professional" if person doesn't have a proper degree { as with my case }

I checked my lawyer and they have n't much details on it

Also I checked I140 form on USCIS website

and there is only one option { option e }

A professional (at a minimum, possessing a bachelor's degree or a foreign degreeequivalent to a U.S. bachelor's degree) or a skilled worker (requiring at least two years ofspecialized training or experience).


So it sounds like whether you fall in skilled worker or professional cateogry - you have to choose same option.

How exactly its determined whether you fall in skilled worker or skilled professional ???

 

[anilt75]

Hi UN and/or Anil75

one of you mentioned about mentioning "skilled worker" Vs. "skilled professional" if person doesn't have a proper degree { as with my case }
I checked my lawyer and they have n't much details on it.Also I checked I140 form on USCIS website and there is only one option { option e }

A professional (at a minimum, possessing a bachelor's degree or a foreign degree equivalent to a U.S. bachelor's degree) or a skilled worker (requiring at least two years of specialized training or experience). So it sounds like whether you fall in skilled worker or professional cateogry - you have to choose same option. How exactly its determined whether you fall in skilled worker or skilled professional ???

--You are absolutely correct. Infact , this "glitch" is said to have caused USCIS to score negative in the court cases("3-year degree" court case,Oregon district court?). Must be ridiculous to defend its position with a lousy application form(I-140) which fails to reflect one of the "eb" categories as an option.

Like UN said, specifically mention that you are seeking a "skilled worker" category.

 

[thota]

I-140 Premium Process

My company filed for premium process on 09/14/2006

my LUD changed 09/14/2006, 09/15/2006 and 09/18/2006

Yesterday did not changed. Looks like my case got struck as some of the other like 3 year degree issue. I have bachelor os Science degree from INDIA

Current Status:

Your Request for Premium Processing Service for your I140 IMMIGRANT PETITION FOR ALIEN WORKER was received on September 14, 2006. We mailed you a receipt with information about processing. We will mail you a decision as soon as processing is completeYou can use our processing dates to estimate when this case will be done. Follow the the link below for current processing dates.

 

[A0001]

it's better to refile labor as bellow.

Hi ADI_GC

Can you enlight your case more detail. That will help others.

Example in my case EB3 with Three Years degree from INDIA

I applied EB3
My Labor information as below
In H section (Job opportunity Information)
4-A. Education:Minimum Level Required- Bachelors
4-B. Major Field of Study. Computers or Engineering
5. Is training required in the job opportunity? No
6. Is experience in the Job offered required for the job? Yes
6-A. If Yes, number of months experiencve required? 24
7. Is there an alternate of field of Study is acceptable? No

YES

8. Is there an alternate combination of education and experience that is acceptable? No

YES

9. Is a Foreign education equivalent acceptable? Yes
10. Is experience in an alternate occupation aceeptable? No

YES

In my case my HR filed himself without Attorney. He screwed up Labor application. I studied Bachelor of Science (Physics, Electronics, Mathematics) .
4-B. Major Field of Study. Computers or Engineering
7. Is there an alternate of field of Study is acceptable? No

is mentioned. I think that will enough for USCIS to deny my case.
I also did evaluation with Sheila. If my I-140 denied, What do I get blaming Sheila for my HR manager mistake.

Your case details will answer and help may others in this forums. That will answer many of our questions.
Thank you

 

[ashasree]

my 140 approved

my lawyer filed my 140 last month and it got approved in 10 days.

they filed it in NSC and it went to TSC and got approved. I used normal evaluation which says education and experience = bachelor degree.

hope this helps

 

[riz_arsh]

my lawyer filed my 140 last month and it got approved in 10 days.

they filed it in NSC and it went to TSC and got approved. I used normal evaluation which says education and experience = bachelor degree.

hope this helps

Please let us know how you managed to get I-140 approval with a 3 year degree or combination of degrees. Did you utilize an evaluation which evaluated :

1. A combination of 3 year degree+diploma = US Bachelors equivalent.
2. 3 year degree = 4 year US Bachelors equivalent

Please let us know if your case was EB2 or EB3 and if degree combination was mentioned in the LC as educational requirement.

 

[stillwaiiting]

I thought Combination works only for H1B. Have they started accepting now for I-140 too? Many cases with combo+education denied @ NSC (TSC is difference) though. If that is the case then UN is ABSOLUTELY wrong.