Like I said, I'm not concerned about it. Theoretically, it is possible, but I'm not concerned. I understand it's preferred. If it were such an important thing, it would be made mandatory. You pass off information here as if you were qualified to do so, when you are not. It wouldn't be legal for you to do so if this were a federal or immigration building. If anything, you're the one questioning the government implying there's going to be some sort of siege one day declaring all citizens without this document as non-citizens, or even aliens.
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Name change after citizenship in rare case
- Thread starter style1983
- Start date
sanjoseaug20
Registered Users (C)
You pass off information here as if you were qualified to do so, when you are not. It wouldn't be legal for you to do so if this were a federal or immigration building.
The funny part is that people here pass on information ... while having a caveat in their signature that this is not legal advice. And still people come to these forums and seek advice.
And the funnier part is that hundreds, if not thousands, of people have benefited from such non-qualified advice.
I know what you are thinking ... benefitted thousands ... probably millions have been misled into losing their citizenship also, but they are promptly banned so that they do not come and complain.
Need to meet you ... I would like to get your autograph on the fake naturalization certificate I have been preparing for my friends ;-)
Yet some here use a tone that they know everything, and every possible little intricacy, and try to strike fear into you.
I simply have chosen not to believe that if I lost my passport, that an L.L. Bean catalog addressed to me carries as much weight as the rest of my documents (ID and SSN) when proving myself as a citizen.
I also spoke with USCIS today, and I was told the Department of State has a database of who is and isn't a US Citizen, and there is nothing worry about. It was never even implied I require it.
I simply have chosen not to believe that if I lost my passport, that an L.L. Bean catalog addressed to me carries as much weight as the rest of my documents (ID and SSN) when proving myself as a citizen.
I also spoke with USCIS today, and I was told the Department of State has a database of who is and isn't a US Citizen, and there is nothing worry about. It was never even implied I require it.
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sanjoseaug20
Registered Users (C)
I was told the Department of State has a database of who is and isn't a US Citizen, and there is nothing worry about.
I am sure every department has a database. And I am sure many departments have a list of USCs ... Social Security people for example. How accurate and useful this information is a different question.
The relevant question in this context is ... if you need to prove your identity, what proof will this custodians of database require to help you? Their response
==> I am not authorized to reveal whether "style1983" exists in our DB or not
==> I am not authorized to reveal whether "style1983" is a citizen or not
==> Oh, you are "style1983". Prove it ...
[ADD]
==> I see a style1983 who got a US passport, but I have no clue how he/she became citizen. I will need to send it to someone upstairs.
Having said that, like anything, there is a NORMAL distribution curve of citizens. On one end of the range, some do not even step out of the country. On the other end, they live outside.
On one end of the curve, you can do serial crimes, and never get caught. On the other end of the curve, you can get caught jaywalking when you try it the first time.
The question is a) which end of the spectrum your life puts you in, and b) what protection do you invest in if you happen to land up on the bad side of this NORMAL curve.
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A meteor could also land in your backyard. I can't see a legal citizen being detained or treated like an illegal alien for not bearing their passport if questioned about legal status. Especially if that person has gone through American schools, university, paid taxes, SSN, and voted here, and has a valid passport, even if they don't have it readily available as proof. I'm sure this has happened in very rare circumstances, probably on suspicion of other illegal activity. Possibly racketeering (with ties to a foreign country), or anything along those lines.
Either way, I do find it strange these departments (State Dept and USCIS) do not cohesively work together regarding passports of those naturalized by default. It's sort of like Subway not handling bread - it has to go through a separate proxy before they're allowed to put it on your sandwich - unless you pay a fee, or you risk being denied your sandwich.
Either way, I do find it strange these departments (State Dept and USCIS) do not cohesively work together regarding passports of those naturalized by default. It's sort of like Subway not handling bread - it has to go through a separate proxy before they're allowed to put it on your sandwich - unless you pay a fee, or you risk being denied your sandwich.
Jackolantern
Registered Users (C)
A meteor could also land in your backyard. I can't see a legal citizen being detained or treated like an illegal alien for not bearing their passport if questioned about legal status.
It's not about being treated like an illegal alien. If you are inside the US and they make an issue of the underlying basis of your passport and you don't provide the evidence they want, they'll just refuse to issue the renewed/replaced one. And then you go on living your life, able to roam free and do whatever you want, except that you don't have a passport anymore and thus will run into roadblocks with situations that require a passport.
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sanjoseaug20
Registered Users (C)
Apparently, my citizenship is only temporary. You want me to believe this for some reason.
Who said this? I know you want to prolong this discussion for some reason, and I am happy to oblige (even if I am a sucker for doing this).
Did anyone say you will lose your citizenship? Did anyone say the citizenship is temporary?
The question is not at the scale of meteor.
It is at the scale of fire ... people buy fire insurance. Why? There are so many people whose houses never burn down. But they do buy hazard insurance. Why?
And you need to realize you are already outside the normal curve of people who apply for passport ... because the simplest validation is a US birth certificate. Which you do not have, right? Even though this is a country of immigrants, one easy way of proving citizenship is to show a birth certificate from any of the 49 states in US (excluding Hawaii for various reasons).
This one parameter pushes the odds of you having trouble from a 1 in million odds to a 1 in thousand odds. Now will you buy fire insurance on a 1:1000 odds? I do not know. Many would not. Many will. If I was in your situation, I probably would not.
BTW, odds like 1:100000 and 1:1000 are made up without any real data ... I half expect an accusation of making up numbers so thought it will be good to clarify.
I'm simply not worried about getting hassled over my legal status. I'm a citizen, and I know that can be ascertained if I need to prove it. Some of you have honestly spent too much time on this forum discussing various theoretical possibilities, that you've convinced yourselves they are very likely. You wouldn't be so passionate about arguing with me nonstop if you didn't feel that way.
It's time to get some fresh air for everyone. The US government keeps track of these things, who is a citizen and who isn't. They probably have some super-advanced database you've never even heard of.
It's time to get some fresh air for everyone. The US government keeps track of these things, who is a citizen and who isn't. They probably have some super-advanced database you've never even heard of.
sanjoseaug20
Registered Users (C)
They probably have some super-advanced database you've never even heard of.
Yeah, the database of 21 million illegals. Definitely.
I called the Dept of State today, there is a federal database of who is a citizen and who isn't. Some of you here want citizens to believe without that document they run a slight risk of being indistinguishable from an illegal if they don't happen to have their "proof on hand", it comes across very ignorant.
It's obvious some of you are upset with the fact others were able to receive citizenship in a much easier way, you also fail to realize there is a reason for that, we grew up in America and satisfied the requirements of having at least one parent a naturalized or born citizen. Now you want us to pay $600, probably because you had to pay more. Probably wish it was mandatory for those of us who didn't have to.
It's obvious some of you are upset with the fact others were able to receive citizenship in a much easier way, you also fail to realize there is a reason for that, we grew up in America and satisfied the requirements of having at least one parent a naturalized or born citizen. Now you want us to pay $600, probably because you had to pay more. Probably wish it was mandatory for those of us who didn't have to.
sanjoseaug20
Registered Users (C)
;-)
Yeah we are also organizing a revolt against the "citizens by default" ... much like Egypt and Libya. Lot more penalties beyond the 600$ coming soon.
Yeah we are also organizing a revolt against the "citizens by default" ... much like Egypt and Libya. Lot more penalties beyond the 600$ coming soon.
sanjoseaug20
Registered Users (C)
Could be 1 million dollars by next year to prove your citizenship, even if you already are.
Million. That's cheap. With the dollar poised for an epic fall, 1 peso might be enough to buy a million dollars next year.
But, we indeed do need reparations. How can someone just get citizenship so easily when so many people had to struggle. Epic injustice requires epic reparations.
Million. That's cheap. With the dollar poised for an epic fall, 1 peso might be enough to buy a million dollars next year.
But, we indeed do need reparations. How can someone just get citizenship so easily when so many people had to struggle. Epic injustice requires epic reparations.
Probably because there is a distinction between someone who came here as an infant or a toddler (and is the child of at least one US citizen), and someone who came here as an adult with the intent of becoming a citizen. Unless you believe it should be the same...and you actually might.
Jackolantern
Registered Users (C)
I called the Dept of State today, there is a federal database of who is a citizen and who isn't. Some of you here want citizens to believe without that document they run a slight risk of being indistinguishable from an illegal if they don't happen to have their "proof on hand", it comes across very ignorant.
You're arguing against a point that nobody is making. Nobody here is saying you're going to be indistinguishable from an illegal or be hassled about your status. All we're saying is that you might have a problem with renewing or replacing your passport. Unlikely, but not impossible ... it has actually happened to some people. If they refuse to issue your passport due to insufficient documentation, you're not going to get detained or deported, and they're not going to deem you to be an illegal. All that happens is that you don't have a passport, and then you go on living your life without the passport, keeping your SSN, DL, and everything else. The consequences of lacking a passport can range from meaningless to severe, depending on how often you actually need to use the passport for something.
The main point is that different agencies have different levels of documentary proof for recognizing your citizenship and issuing ID or providing other benefits based on that proof, and use different databases for determinations of citizenship. What is sufficient proof of citizenship for one purpose such as employment or obtaining a driver's license isn't always sufficient for other purposes such as entering the US after traveling abroad or sponsoring a foreign spouse for a green card.
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sanjoseaug20
Registered Users (C)
An example of future issues ...
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/24/us/24arizona.html
Yes, it is going to be a tough fight if Arizona can get special birth certificates process working. Assuming they are able to get this beyond the Supreme court challenge, the state and federal governments all over will need to figure out 2 kinds of birth certificates. Do they issue passport to people with 2nd class birth certificates? And many other thingys
And if they take this route and want everyone to prove their citizenship ... the 3 categories which are safe are a) people with original US birth certificate, b) people with naturalization certificate and c) you ... of course.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/24/us/24arizona.html
Yes, it is going to be a tough fight if Arizona can get special birth certificates process working. Assuming they are able to get this beyond the Supreme court challenge, the state and federal governments all over will need to figure out 2 kinds of birth certificates. Do they issue passport to people with 2nd class birth certificates? And many other thingys
And if they take this route and want everyone to prove their citizenship ... the 3 categories which are safe are a) people with original US birth certificate, b) people with naturalization certificate and c) you ... of course.
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Although rare, US citizens without proper documentation have been detained by ICE in the past.
"....An unpublished study by the Vera Institute of Justice, a New York nonprofit organization, in 2006 identified 125 people in immigration detention centers across the nation who immigration lawyers believed had valid U.S. citizenship claims."
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2008/01/24/25392/immigration-officials-detaining.html
"....An unpublished study by the Vera Institute of Justice, a New York nonprofit organization, in 2006 identified 125 people in immigration detention centers across the nation who immigration lawyers believed had valid U.S. citizenship claims."
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2008/01/24/25392/immigration-officials-detaining.html
Jackolantern
Registered Users (C)
Probably because there is a distinction between someone who came here as an infant or a toddler (and is the child of at least one US citizen), and someone who came here as an adult with the intent of becoming a citizen.
That's actually the kind of proof the passport authorities ask for when they have a doubt about somebody who is renewing/replacing a passport without ever having a US birth certificate or citizenship certificate ... they ask you to prove that you were living in the US as a child with a green card, and that you have at least one US citizen parent who had citizenship before you turned 18. Gathering that proof when you're 40 or 50 is probably going to be a lot more difficult than gathering it when you're under 30.
Again, the Department of State has a permanent database of it and I've been told this is not a concern by people who actually work for these agencies. I've applied for a passport renewal before and had absolutely no difficulties with it. I understand it's possible you get some rogue agent in there, who may try and make the process extra difficult for you. This can happen with any agency, TSA for example. Cops get the wrong guy type thing. The fact is, I am a citizen and it can be proven via alternative routes.
You guys speak as if what you say should be taken as gospel.
You guys speak as if what you say should be taken as gospel.