Eligibility Country - Birth vs. Nationality - DV-2011

[sxt173]

I know this has been asked before, but I just want to be 100% sure:

My situation:

• I was born in Switzerland
• I am a national of Turkey
• The only passport I hold is for Turkey, i.e. no connection to Switzerland
• My parents are both nationals of Turkey and were born in Turkey
• We were in Switzerland for my fathers occupation as a diplomat for Turkey

1. Am I correct to understand that my "Country of Eligibility" will be Switzerland?
2. Since both countries are in the same zone (Europe), can I use either one for eligibility?
3. Since Switzerland probably has much fewer applications for DV, am I better off just using that?

THANKS!

 

[masematn]

[*]I was born in Switzerland
[*]I am a national of Turkey
[*]The only passport I hold is for Turkey, i.e. no connection to Switzerland

You should have a birth certificate. Where was it issued? What is written in your birth certificate about your place of birth?

 

[sarahdiop]

I have the same problem. My sister was born in Belgium but she is not a belgian citizen (in Belgium, citizenship it is not automatic like in the US), she is citizen from another country, so are our parents and myself. She has a birth certificate from our country stating that she was born in Belgium. Her birth certificate identifies her as being from our country, she has a passport from our country, and is in the US as a F-1 student with a visa as a citizen from our country. What should she put on her DV application as far as country of chargeability? I am quite confused with that. Belgium is eligible as is our country. Which country should she use as country of eligibility?

 

[masematn]

My sister was born in Belgium [...] She has a birth certificate from our country stating that she was born in Belgium.

She should claim Belgium, since she was born there and it is written so in her birth certificate, no matter where it was issued.

 

[sarahdiop]

masematn, thank you for ur reply. It helps!

 

[raevsky]

She has a birth certificate from our country stating that she was born in Belgium

Is that a birth certificate issued in Belgium by Belgian authorities?

 

[ammeck09]

Is that a birth certificate issued in Belgium by Belgian authorities?

Where the birth certificate was issued is not the issue but whether it shows that she was born in Belgium. It can be issued anywhere but it states that she was born in Belgium, then she can use Belgium as her country of chargeability even though she may not have a Belgium passport or citizenship.

 

[raevsky]

Sometimes that works. But most likely it will not. The birth certificate, saying you were born in country N, generally has to be issued by authorities of the same country N. There could be some rare exceptions though. Generally, if you have a bith certificate issued by Angloa authories, mentioning you were born in Norway, that is not enough proof of your birth in Norway.

 

[masematn]

Generally, if you have a bith certificate issued by Angloa authories, mentioning you were born in Norway, that is not enough proof of your birth in Norway.

Generally - maybe, but in reality it would be enough especially when supported by some extra paperwork. Angola authorities do not issue random certificates, they have to rely on some records. And a person born in Norway most likely had hospital records. It may be possible to retrieve them from archives, and attach to the birth certificate.

 

[NuvF]

Usually when a citizen of a country A give birth to a child abroad say in country B, A's embassy in B (or some authority back in A via the said embassy) issue a BC saying the child was born to an A citizen at a specific place in B.

BUT.......Usually the application that you forward to the A's embassy asking for a BC calls for 'proof' of birth, and that usually is the BC issued by the local/state authority in B where the child was born !! (in other words, it is most likely that a BC was in-fact had been issued by an authority in B)

What you need to do now is, get the document info you have of your sis's birth and apply for a new BC from the local/state authority who issue BC's back in Belgium.

If you are dead sure that no BC was issued originally in Belgium, get in contact with the hospital and see how you can get a BC from there. (usually hospitals have to report births/deaths to local/state authorities, so somewhere they may have the original records. My guess is it would not be a big deal to get that BC from there.

Her odds may be better if she claim Belgium, just may be !

Just my 2c

 

[sxt173]

You should have a birth certificate. Where was it issued? What is written in your birth certificate about your place of birth?

yes, I have a birth certificate issued by Turkey that says I was born in Switzerland.

 

[masematn]

Usually when a citizen of a country A give birth to a child abroad say in country B, A's embassy in B (or some authority back in A via the said embassy) issue a BC saying the child was born to an A citizen at a specific place in B.

It is not usual, and there is no need to involve embassy. A good example is US. When a foreign citizen gives birth to a child in America, the child gets an American birth certificate. (Some parents may want to get a BC of their other country, and in this case rules vary from country to country.)

 

[masematn]

yes, I have a birth certificate issued by Turkey that says I was born in Switzerland.

Then I would say you can claim Switzerland.

 

[raevsky]

http://travel.state.gov/visa/immigrants/info/info_3195.html#certificates

Each applicant will need to obtain an original birth certificate issued by the official custodian of birth records in the country of birth, showing the date and place of birth and the parentage of the alien, based upon the original registration of birth.

So, as long as you prove the Turkish authority, which issued your birth certificate, is an official custodian of birth records in Switzerland, you are fine. I hope, you have a very strong proof of that fact. That could be Swiss Konstitution or any oter Swiss law, proving this.

Situation with masematn was more specific, and he at least had some kind of hints - his two authorities were generally under the same jurisdiction (two different countries within former USSR), and Russia allowed registering births made in Ukraine (where he was born). That could be some kind of a hint that Russian authorities were official custodian to issue Ukrainian birth certificate under very limited circumstances. I still consider what happened in his case a consular error, but those facts could soften the consul, equivocate the truth and provoke him to make the mistake. Or I do not remember all details. but it could be he qualified under a different country in Europe (using spouse or parents), and the consul allowed that change.

 

[masematn]

http://travel.state.gov/visa/immigrants/info/info_3195.html#certificates

That's a strong point, I was not aware of this requirement. Just out of curiosity, what should a person do if he was born in US (not in any embassy), and within a month his parents brought the hospital records to a Russian authority in Russia, and received a Russian BC with a place of birth "Anytown, US"? I guess, he may be able to go to the Vital Records and get an American BC in addition to his Russian one - if that is what the travel.state.gov wants...

Russia allowed registering births made in Ukraine (where he was born).

To be more exact, it was not between Russia and Ukraine, but a common practice of the USSR - a birth could be registered at the place of a parent's residency, and the place of birth could be either the child's actual place of birth, or any of his parent's place of residence. (Raevsky, after three courts in Russia I have those laws, believe me!)

I still consider what happened in his case a consular error, but those facts could soften the consul, equivocate the truth and provoke him to make the mistake. Or I do not remember all details. but it could be he qualified under a different country in Europe (using spouse or parents), and the consul allowed that change.

If you do not remember, I did an AOS, so no consul has been ever involved. There was also no equivocation nor provocation. I was qualified under Ukraine. I did submit a personal statement, and all the court papers, including court ruling recogizing Ukraine as my place of birth, and notarized statements of several witnesses. And all this convinced USCIS that I had been born in Ukraine. Result is in my signature. Even with another place of birth in my BC.

 

[raevsky]

That's a strong point, I was not aware of this requirement.

That is strange. I used the same arument a year ago, with the same reference.

Just out of curiosity, what should a person do if he was born in US (not in any embassy), and within a month his parents brought the hospital records to a Russian authority in Russia, and received a Russian BC with a place of birth "Anytown, US"? I guess, he may be able to go to the Vital Records and get an American BC in addition to his Russian one - if that is what the travel.state.gov wants...

A US BC could be ordered by mail even if there is no Russian BC, stating he was born in the US. BCs are public records, and anyone could order them. BTW, if there is a suspicion an alien is a US citizen, he cannot be issued a visa until the consul is 100% sure he is not in fact a US citizen.

To be more exact, it was not between Russia and Ukraine, but a common practice of the USSR - a birth could be registered at the place of a parent's residency, and the place of birth could be either the child's actual place of birth, or any of his parent's place of residence. (Raevsky, after three courts in Russia I have those laws, believe me!)

You probably forget that each soviet republic had it's own family jurisdiction and separate laws.

If you do not remember, I did an AOS, so no consul has been ever involved. There was also no equivocation nor provocation. I was qualified under Ukraine. I did submit a personal statement, and all the court papers, including court ruling recogizing Ukraine as my place of birth, and notarized statements of several witnesses. And all this convinced USCIS that I had been born in Ukraine. Result is in my signature. Even with another place of birth in my BC.

Oops. Sorry. CIS officer mistake. Formally requirements for birth certificate could be different for AOS than for consulates. However, that particular requirement is so logical and so obviousely necessary, that it would be very strange if for AOS purposes it is not required. The officer decided your you qualified. Which is very much different from "you were qualified under Ukraine".

 

[raevsky]

An example, who could be this custodian

http://tokyo.usembassy.gov/e/visa/tvisa-ivbirth.html

Non-Japanese born in Japan: Submit either a birth certificate issued by a diplomatic or consular official of the applicant's nationality, or a certified copy of the Certificate of Acceptance of Notification of Birth ("shussei todoke juri shomeisho" or "shussei todoke kisaijiko shomeisho"). It must be accompanied by an English translation, certified by the translator.

Though official custodians in Japan could be different from those in Switzerland.

 

[sarahdiop]

masematn and raevsky, thank you for ur answers. lol, glad to see it brought in some discussions lol! Ok, what we need to do is to try to contact the hospital in belgium and try to see if they have some record of my sister's birth and get them to send us some proof of that which we should be able to attach to her current birth certificate, which by the way was not issued by belgian authorities. We will how we can get that, administration is so slow in Belgium and i hope the hospital stills exists or has records that we can use...
Thank you all for your input and good luck if you are applying this year for the DV!

 

[masematn]

That is strange. I used the same arument a year ago, with the same reference.

"A strong point" for this thread, for Switzerland-Turkey, but not for my case a year ago. Unlike Russia and Ukraine, these two countries have nothing in common.

A US BC could be ordered by mail even if there is no Russian BC, stating he was born in the US.

Can it be obtained if a Russian BC exists? (Russia, by the way, would not issue a Russian BC if the child has received an American certificate.)

You probably forget that each soviet republic had it's own family jurisdiction and separate laws.

Not at all. But if you put these "separate" laws side by side, you'll see for sure that in most cases the only difference is the name of a republic. (I am not saying that everything was identical though.)

Oops. Sorry. CIS officer mistake.

I respectfully understand that you defend your belief, however it is not enough for accusing an IO in overlooking a mistakes and granting a visa to somebody who is not eligible. Instructions for I-485 state that BC has to comply with CFR 103.2(b)(2) - a Code of Federal Regulations, which you probably heard of. Title 8 of this Code, 103.2(b)(2), makes it very clear:

(b) An applicant or petitioner must establish eligibility for a requested immigration benefit. An application or petition form must be completed as applicable and filed with any initial evidence required by regulation or by the instructions on the form. Any evidence submitted is considered part of the relating application or petition.
(2) Submitting secondary evidence and affidavits
(i) General. The non-existence or other unavailability of required evidence creates a presumption of ineligibility. If a required document, such as a birth or marriage certificate, does not exist or cannot be obtained, an applicant or petitioner must demonstrate this and submit secondary evidence, such as church or school records, pertinent to the facts at issue. If secondary evidence also does not exist or cannot be obtained, the applicant or petitioner must demonstrate the unavailability of both the required document and relevant secondary evidence, and submit two or more affidavits, sworn to or affirmed by persons who are not parties to the petition who have direct personal knowledge of the event and circumstances. Secondary evidence must overcome the unavailability of primary evidence, and affidavits must overcome the unavailability of both primary and secondary evidence.

My eligibility was based on my Ukrainian place of birth. I provided more than enough of secondary evidence. USCIS closely followed the CFR. You have to admit that there was no mistake made

 

[crash5]

If i have lost the birth certificate for the country i was born in and i am claiming dv eligibility based on that country and I live in another country, what can I do to prove my eligibility. Since I was a baby when my family moved from the country and i have gone through the family records and cannot find my birth certificate or any other records, how can I prove i was born there. I do have passports going back decades that all show where I was born, what other docs or procedure would I need to do..try to find out and contact the hospital to get a bc from 30 years ago or involve that country's embassy? Thanks for any help.