Why beat up on a dead horse, face reality.

[puerthoughts]

Guys,

I saw few out cries of USCIS being very stupid etc. etc. I would say why beat up a dead horse. It is what it is and we cannot change it by crying out loud. Lots of middle class people in US wants their government ot change lots of things like healthcare, high tution fees etc. Still there is no hope for them, so who will listen to a tiny fraction of people like us who does not have any representation. I am NOT saying that we should sit with our hand tied but we should focus on the positives and try our best to make our time worth something. We tried something new with the launch of Immigration Voice and i think we have not seen much fruits yet. You know why ?? caz only small % of our suffering community went for the efforts and others are waiting to get a free ride. Some of us who participated in the immogration voice are frustrated because they see lots of people suffering due to the retrogression but when it comes to take some action very few people are on the street.

It is like a classic hindi movie scene. Everyone in the society is tired of the bad guys but when it comes to take some action only Mr. Amitabh will be there. It is same in our politics. Everyone complaints about the bad things going around in the country but when it comes to vote only less than 40% of the people vote. I will not try to go on this subject since it will take up the whole page. Sticking to our problems how many of us have tried atleast one thing from the list of Things to do for retro victims.

1. Report any abuses of the Immigration System by any company.
2. Try actively to discourage people to pay for the immigration benefit if they are not eligible.
3. Do not let your company file for your LC if you know that you are going to quit in near future. By applying for this kind of LC you are not just screwing your self in future but also your fellow desis.
4. Try to avoid any "backup scenarios" by applying more than one benefit (LC). This sounds very bad but actually if you apply for one LC and stick to that employer, you will eventually get GC quicker and you will have a peace of mind.
5. Help any friend who has less knowledge about the GC process and educate them about their options. Do not let the consultant companies take advantage of misconceptions. A well informed person is much better for our eco-system.

If there are more things to add to this list, please add them. Lots of people keep asking "What can i do ??" So read this list and try to atleast make one positive contribution. I hope each drop of our effort will fill the bucket.

Good Luck !

 

[techy2468]

dude.....you cannot ask someone to limit his options (not filing multiple LCs).....it does not work that way.......its a everyone for themself world...

i would suggest:
1. Report any abuses of the Immigration System by any company.****if it does not screw up your friend (employee of that company) or yourself***


can you explain this, i could not understand it:
2. Try actively to discourage people to pay for the immigration benefit if they are not eligible.


number 5, is redundant........people get exploited because of the current system.....and the backlog......and no amount of knowledge is going to help us right now...

and of course for your own sake....participate at IV........just spend 15 minutes every day on their forum for start.....

 

[puerthoughts]

Techy,

I am not asking to limit their options but rather make it reasonable. If you think this is not the way it works then do you think that the current system works for us ?? I do not think that people should only stick to one stinking employer and only file one LC. What i am saying is that if you think that the employer is stinking then why bother filing LC with him. You know what that kind of company will do once you leave them ?? They will keep pursuing that LC and when that LC is continuing the employee will file another LC with another employer. Since the earlier LC with the bad company was filed before the LC with the good company it will hurt you since you will be thinking why in the world there is so much retrogression. Now the bad company will get the LC approved earlier since they are in the line earlier and they will sell it to someone else for $10-25K and what will happen in long run ??

The bad companies will get a very lucrative deal out of this so for them it is not worth keeping any employee once they file for their LC. I know this will change once the LC substitution is banned but it has not happened yet ! So all the other people working as consultants are getting hurt right now. Desi employers (I am not saying all) will pay very less, with less or no benefit, make more money from you, treat you like a dog, file for your LC, make your life much harder so you leave them, they get LC approved, sell that LC, make even more money and keep going on and ....... on and ......on.


If people like us think twice before agreeing to file the LC, we will only file the LC with right employer who wants you in his company, wants to grow, pays a decent salary and benefit. He will apply your LC without problem, once the LC is approved he will continue the process and will raise the salary since he knows that if he does not keep up with the market rate you will quit once you get the GC. This gets less LC application in the system, bad guys are weeded out and every one wins.

I know it is all fluffy dreams but hey, we came here because of that dream right ? Then why not take that dream futher ??

What do you think ??

 

[tusharvk]

unscrupulous and exploitative employer will file lc regardless whether there is an employee willing to be exploited so long as they have a position. They can sell the lc as long as there is a willing buyer.
so just because the employee does not agree to file for lc does not necessarily lead to less lcs in the pipeline.
Retrogression is here to stay and that itself weeds the bad guys out. If there is not intent of permanent employment between the employer and employee, GC approval is hard to come by.

Techy,

I am not asking to limit their options but rather make it reasonable. If you think this is not the way it works then do you think that the current system works for us ?? I do not think that people should only stick to one stinking employer and only file one LC. What i am saying is that if you think that the employer is stinking then why bother filing LC with him. You know what that kind of company will do once you leave them ?? They will keep pursuing that LC and when that LC is continuing the employee will file another LC with another employer. Since the earlier LC with the bad company was filed before the LC with the good company it will hurt you since you will be thinking why in the world there is so much retrogression. Now the bad company will get the LC approved earlier since they are in the line earlier and they will sell it to someone else for $10-25K and what will happen in long run ??

The bad companies will get a very lucrative deal out of this so for them it is not worth keeping any employee once they file for their LC. I know this will change once the LC substitution is banned but it has not happened yet ! So all the other people working as consultants are getting hurt right now. Desi employers (I am not saying all) will pay very less, with less or no benefit, make more money from you, treat you like a dog, file for your LC, make your life much harder so you leave them, they get LC approved, sell that LC, make even more money and keep going on and ....... on and ......on.


If people like us think twice before agreeing to file the LC, we will only file the LC with right employer who wants you in his company, wants to grow, pays a decent salary and benefit. He will apply your LC without problem, once the LC is approved he will continue the process and will raise the salary since he knows that if he does not keep up with the market rate you will quit once you get the GC. This gets less LC application in the system, bad guys are weeded out and every one wins.

I know it is all fluffy dreams but hey, we came here because of that dream right ? Then why not take that dream futher ??

What do you think ??

 

[desi3933]

Anything for GC?

unscrupulous and exploitative employer will file lc regardless whether there is an employee willing to be exploited so long as they have a position. They can sell the lc as long as there is a willing buyer.
so just because the employee does not agree to file for lc does not necessarily lead to less lcs in the pipeline.
Retrogression is here to stay and that itself weeds the bad guys out. If there is not intent of permanent employment between the employer and employee, GC approval is hard to come by.

That is the main problem. In some/many cases, employee is working on a project at "client site" and employee knows that once project is over, he will be on bench and whole job and GC process depend on this. Once in bench time, some even try "pay without leave", "on payroll" to pursue their GC dream whereas employer could be looking for new talent with "labor substitution".

In case of some (many?) consulting companies, for employees GC is stepping stone for freedom. They know project is "the job", and everybody knows how "permanent" that is. This could be argued as "immigration benefit abuse", but from employee's point of view "once I get GC everything is fine" is the mantra.

For the same position, there are cases where employee are ready to move from eb3 to eb2. This could be "abuse of the system" (at least in some cases). But who cares!

As long as demand is high, Retrogression is here to stay. Simple, but for some, acceptance of reality is very difficult. But, this will not change anything.

 

[tusharvk]

I do not know the intent behind lc sub. The fact is that gc is for future position and the employee does not come into picture until i-140 stage. so if the employee left the company before i-140 stage, the company can go to the i-140 stage with someone else. From the employer's perspective, this is fair game.
But when they start selling LC to a willing buyer, that is surely a problem. That changes the order of the people in the GC queue unfairly.

If growing scrutiny can address such problem it is all the better.
What the scrutiny should focus on are the following things
-does the lc sub involve i-140 revocation
-does tne employee have lcs with later pd.
Both these would be red flags indicating some abuse of the system.

This is why I say not to poke USCIS. USCIS does know of the abuse and how people are getting greencards. When Cybersoftech situation happened last year, I knew that was going to severely curtail any lobbying to increase the quota. That investigation would have opened up the whole can of worms of how staffing companies operate. It has caused an increased level of scrutiny.

Labor substitution doesn't change the number of people going for the greencard but rather the order of people. If you think labor substitution is a big problem then you need to prove it. Department of labor hasn't been able to scientifically prove it and that is why it hasn't gone away yet.

There has been a lot of H-1b denials from California Service Center due to companies not being able to supply contracts with end client and Chennai keeps doing administrative process asking for client letters. If USCIS and Consulates are denying saying there is no job or it is speculative employment and pegging the companies as staffing companies then it is just a matter of time before they bring this scrutiny right over to greencards.

 

[eBhola]

Labor substitution doesn't change the number of people going for the greencard but rather the order of people. If you think labor substitution is a big problem then you need to prove it. Department of labor hasn't been able to scientifically prove it and that is why it hasn't gone away yet.

Labor substitution makes the wait in the line much more longer, as visa number vanish to fullfill the guys who cut in with better PD.

Here is a thing which happened to one of my buddy.. Needed a GC so got in touch with one company. They said we just have a labor for Ur experience .. but U need to tranfer Ur H1b to us and we will do the sub labor for U .. and U need to go thru our attoney.. Great my friend felt he went for it..

He got the sub labor and got his 140 approved .. just after 180 days they said that he need to go to another company .. there sister concern... they moved him company B .. continued with his GC process using AC-21.
Meanwhile the company got another guy to substitute for his labor.

Later he learnt that ... the labor which he had got was also in the simmilar way .. they had moved one guy to company B to pave a way for his labor.

So over here .. atleast 3 guys got a benefit of one labor.

 

[desi3933]

This is why I say not to poke USCIS. USCIS does know of the abuse and how people are getting greencards. When Cybersoftech situation happened last year, I knew that was going to severely curtail any lobbying to increase the quota. That investigation would have opened up the whole can of worms of how staffing companies operate. It has caused an increased level of scrutiny.

Labor substitution doesn't change the number of people going for the greencard but rather the order of people. If you think labor substitution is a big problem then you need to prove it. Department of labor hasn't been able to scientifically prove it and that is why it hasn't gone away yet.

There has been a lot of H-1b denials from California Service Center due to companies not being able to supply contracts with end client and Chennai keeps doing administrative process asking for client letters. If USCIS and Consulates are denying saying there is no job or it is speculative employment and pegging the companies as staffing companies then it is just a matter of time before they bring this scrutiny right over to greencards.

That is the main reason why some (many?) people would like to get their GC approval asap as they know are in "speculative employment" and under increased scrutiny it could mean anywhere from RFE to denial. There is element of risk for getting GC thru "staffing companies" and this adds to the anxiety part.

Labor Substitution is not a problem from Employer's point of view. It could be problem from employee side as, like you said, it changes the order of getting GC.

Another thing is that, H1 is qualified for many things (like part time job, short term full time contract job) where GC is not qualified. But, many people who are on H1, think that they are entitled for GC even if they are working for "projects" thru "staffing company".

 

[bigbang2001]

UN you are a fact oriented person and I am intrigued by this statement:

[Without staffing companies; 90% of people from India on H-1b or getting greencards would still be sitting in India.]

I am from India and never came on staffing. Most of the people I know and worked with in bay area came here from India came as students, joined employers here. May be my data sample is very small and area very limited but a figure of 90% seems a generalistion taken too far.

I've been very careful in not giving a roadmap and I don't think anyone else should either. Reason is that the anti-immigrants/dol/uscis do monitor this site.

I did get a call one time from a person in Nevada asking who I was and they hung up on me. Programmersguild.org quoted a posting from this portal.

DOL in their investigation of cybersoftec was monitoring seleka and path2usa and this web-site.

Eventually, with this retrogression there was going to start to be divisions among people.

People working in permanent jobs who don't have flexibility to influence their employers for greencard, people at staffing companies, employers and india versus row.

Now people who are in "permanent job" don't like the labor substitution, they don't want people going from eb3 to eb2; staffing company people want their greencards right away due to the dynamics of employer/employee relationship, ROW people feeling they got screwed over in previous years by India taking too many greencards.

Some of the things I learned:

Without staffing companies; 90% of people from India on H-1b or getting greencards would still be sitting in India.

People with "permanent jobs" came through staffing companies and then switched OR they came as students and went from F-1 right to H-1 with small companies that most Americans wouldn't bother going to.

People really need to reflect on the purpose of employment base greencard, how they may be directly or indirectly circumventing the system before they start cribbing.

 

[zzzz4zzzz]

Lot of people came from india including me thru staffing company and i know minimum 1000 people who came thru staffing company in 1999 - 2000 time
i think what UN says about indian H1 people are almost correct ,may be 75% of the H1 people who came from india to USA are through Staffing company

UN you are a fact oriented person and I am intrigued by this statement:

[Without staffing companies; 90% of people from India on H-1b or getting greencards would still be sitting in India.]

I am from India and never came on staffing. Most of the people I know and worked with in bay area came here from India came as students, joined employers here. May be my data sample is very small and area very limited but a figure of 90% seems a generalistion taken too far.

 

[garam.chadi]

This is why I say not to poke USCIS. USCIS does know of the abuse and how people are getting greencards. When Cybersoftech situation happened last year, I knew that was going to severely curtail any lobbying to increase the quota.

Labor substitution doesn't change the number of people going for the greencard but rather the order of people. If you think labor substitution is a big problem then you need to prove it. Department of labor hasn't been able to scientifically prove it and that is why it hasn't gone away yet.

Well Cybersofttech apllied for mutiple 140's on the same labor and did some ghost labors against the gost companies too...

But they are many consulting companies who appears to play by rules by adopting just-in-time withdrawal of GC .. to faciliate labor substitution...
The fast 140 approval and the retrogression has really helped them to get as many guys in the system against the single labor. As soon as the guys 180 days are over ... almost imdly the labor goes for someone else.


How do U say labor substitution is just change of order ...?

 

[desi3933]

......

......

Keep in mind that the traditional American companies don't set up interview booths in foreign countries to recruit people to USA (India or any other country).

.......
......

There are companies that go to campus placements in India. In some cases, the candidates are hired for India branch and they move to USA on L1/H1 visa.

http://www.iitm.ac.in/Academics/Placement & Training.html
http://www.pagalguy.com/index.php?categoryid=54&p2_articleid=338

I agree, most of the people coming on H1 visa may be due to staffing companies. But there are US companies going to India for hiring.

 

[mogambo2495]

I think there is a simple solution to LC substitute that should benefit all and fair to everyone. And it can and should be done if USCIS care.

Allow LC substitution but deny pririty date.
For subs priority date should be filing of 140 date.

That way employer can't complain that they spent money on LC and its a wate not to reuse it.
People in queue wont complain because they have their priority date before sub

And person subing shouldn't complain because he should play fair.

 

[garam.chadi]

It's not as common that companies revoke it and then use it for someone else.

What is common is that people jump around from one company to another and every step of the way they file a labor. Once those labors get approved then they pick which one they want greencard on.

The unused labors then go to someone else. That is where the re-ordering happens. It is not common that two people are file on same labor with one person using portability and then freeing it up for another person.

1> There are very few who abandon there approved 140 -- and starts a GC all over again.

2> There are many who quit the company after 180 days of 485.

In the case 1 above .. the labor is truly unused.... But it in the case 2 above mutiple people are using the same labor ... and this is not a good thing for waiting in line guys.

But, things that are happening on the ground are not so straight forward .. most of the labor substitute company -- do not see there employee even.. there is just an agreement over the phone.. The employee finds work and routs the billing to these companies.. The companies take there share and give the rest back to the employees. If the guys is without work -- they keep the payroll running ... by the system of reverse salary ... )) . So infact the guys who go for the labor substitution thru these specialized companies .. are not in fear of loosing there jobs ... as the boss is always paid.

 

[neocor]

It's not as common that companies revoke it and then use it for someone else.

What is common is that people jump around from one company to another and every step of the way they file a labor. Once those labors get approved then they pick which one they want greencard on.

The unused labors then go to someone else. That is where the re-ordering happens. It is not common that two people are file on same labor with one person using portability and then freeing it up for another person.

I think the big catch here is that there is no way for the USCIS to know if an LC was really freed up. Or I am sure even if there is a way USCIS, does not do that check. It just simply substitutes it. I have not heard a single LS case being rejected by USCIS on the ground that it is been already used by another person and that person is still persuing it.
There can be hundreds of GC's on a single LC.

Companies can even subsitute LC's for which the original person has already got a GC. Therefore potentially each and every LC that has been ever filed can be used and re-used and re-used for eternity.

This clearly explain why we are having retrogression right now.
EB3 still in Apr 2001 really does not make any sense now. USCIS still thinks that there is so much demand becasue of the 245i's, when for all you know only 10% of the total 245i's would have made the 485 queue.

They keep getting LS's and they blindly approve them and when they see so much demand of Visa Numbers they just think that the 245i's is the reason.

neo

 

[blondhenge]

If it is a substitute then citizenship clock starts from date of filing 140 but place in greencard line is original priority date.

If there was something to fight for this would be the one that I would go for.

UN, I don't quite understand your reference to the citizenship clock. I believe that the 5 year clock does not start ticking until AOS is approved (i.e. from date of permanent residency). Can you please clarify your comment? Thanks.

 

[Nadi]

A

Nebraska Service Center on a re-used labor denied the 140 stating original beneficiary already ported. One greencard per labor.

True : NSC would reject re-used labor if original beneficiary has already got the GC...


But think this :

Emp A gets labor .. gets 140 .. leaves in 180 days .. Continues his GC with different company .. or the same company but with different name.
Emp B get Emp A labor and continues with Emp A path.
and then comes Emp C and .......

... seems endless loop.

One greencard per labor. seems not hold true here....

 

[tusharvk]

well, he was talking about a proposed change to start the citizenship clock from the pd if the person is in the US.
Does make some sense to me. However, I have heard of people stuck in retro for a long time (using EAD) as much as 5-6 years; so they may end up becoming due for citizenships before they are due for AOS.

UN, I don't quite understand your reference to the citizenship clock. I believe that the 5 year clock does not start ticking until AOS is approved (i.e. from date of permanent residency). Can you please clarify your comment? Thanks.

 

[neocor]

well, he was talking about a proposed change to start the citizenship clock from the pd if the person is in the US.
Does make some sense to me. However, I have heard of people stuck in retro for a long time (using EAD) as much as 5-6 years; so they may end up becoming due for citizenships before they are due for AOS.

Yeah that way you may never need the GC, just apply citizenship straightaway after 5 years of Filing Labor.
I dont think that will fly.

neo

 

[neocor]

I know you really hate labor substitution and no matter what anyone says won't change your mind.

With all the evidence, backlog labors, demand from 245i's, you are still thinking that it is because of labor substitution that dates are stuck in april 2001 for India. There is only 2,800 greencards for India in eb3. There are so many people on these boards waiting from 2001.

Until someone can show me the following numbers:
1. How many 245i's people got GC in FY2006.
2. How many Original Labor Filers (EB3) got GC in FY2006.

These numbers will themselves prove me wrong or right.

True eveidence is there, but they are all speculative, there are really no hard numbers coming out of USCIS about how many are remianing.
Also we dont even know if USCIS is really guessing the demand or going by the real numbers.

Specailly with regards to 245i, until this point there are only speculations. People are just throwing around numbers out of the blue.

If USCIS cant provide the right numbers, how is it possible that they have a system by which they can know if a GC is been already issued for a given Labor. Is there a special field in the electronic records for the 485 filing that mentiones the underlying LC number? If not then there is really no easy way for the USCIS to find out. They are not going to go through stash of paper to find that out.

I think sometime we think USCIS systems are very advanced and give too much credit.

True there are lot of people on these forums who are still waiting with PD in 2001. And that is what I am talking about. Its possible that 90% of those purchased the Labor.

Now lets say USCIS has a way to find out if a particular Labor is already got GC. Now the question is when does USCIS find that out? Do they find that out immideately at the time the Labor is substituted? I think the clear answer here will be NO. Its going to be a long time after the Labor is subsituted that USCIS will find that out, and in the meantime that 485 will count towards the demand. And when if at all the USCIS finds the fraudulant 485 do they immediately count it as redecution in demand?

I know it seems i am making too much of a mountain out of a mole hill. But I have not yet seen any convincing evidence to the contrary.

Someone said here that USCIS publishes in Jan all the details about the Visa Numbers usage in FY2006, if that true i am waiting for the detail.

neo