US Citizen asked to appear at local office?

[Jackolantern]

I wonder why everyone looks at such matters with suspicion. After all the certificate is only a document and has intrinsic value as long as it is attached to the appropriate approval behind the scene (USCIS etc). No point in keeping it locked at the safe in the bank if the underlying problem is not addressed or if it was officially revoked (which I very much doubt).

If USCIS says something is wrong with the certificate because of some reason XYZ, and you know XYZ is false, you are in better shape if you hold on to the certificate and have a lawyer file legal motions to challenge their assertions, rather than giving the certificate to them and hoping and waiting for the situation to be resolved. Because if you give up the certificate and you are in the right, you still end up living without it for however many months it takes to get it back.

Keeping a photocopy at home may not be a bad idea (if any legal matter were to arise by any chance later, a copy should suffice)

Copies are often insufficient -- you can't apply for a driver's license or state ID or passport with a copy.

There was a thread earlier this year on this forum about a guy who got a notice from USCIS to show up with his green card. He went there and they took it away and told him his green card was granted in error because his priority date wasn't current at the time it was approved. After going home he found out they were wrong, because the bulletin shows his PD indeed was current. Now he has a long fight to get back the card.

 

[Jackolantern]

1)8 C.F.R. PART 342—ADMINISTRATIVE CANCELLATION OF CERTIFICATES, DOCUMENTS, OR RECORDS
Title 8 - Aliens and Nationality .
§ 342.1 Notice.
If it shall appear to a district director that a person has illegally or fraudulently obtained or caused to be created a certificate, document, or record described in section 342 of the Act, a notice shall be served upon the person of intention to cancel the certificate, document, or record. The notice shall contain allegations of the reasons for the proposed action and shall advise the person that he may submit, within 60 days of service of the notice, an answer in writing under oath or affirmation showing cause why the certificate, document, or record should not be canceled, that he may appear in person before a naturalization examiner in support of, or in lieu of his written answer, and that he may have present at that time, without expense to the Government, an attorney or representative qualified under part 292 of this chapter. In such proceedings the person shall be known as the respondent.
<<<Note above that notice shall contain allegations.>>>>.

They could physically take away the certificate on the spot, and then provide the 60 days notice and other formalities afterwards. So in the meanwhile, although the certificate remains valid in their database while those procedures are going on, you can't use it if you don't physically have it.

Even if they want to take the certificate just to perform a correction, rather than a revocation, you shouldn't give it to them if you know that no correction is needed. If you don't show the original to them, they won't be in a position to physically take it, and then you can keep it while you investigate or challenge their reasons for wanting to correct it.

 

[WBH]

In this particular OP's case, I don't think it is a big deal. Just follow the
inbstruction. I don't think a lawyer is necessary. Just go there with
a copy of cert. Most likely USCIS try to help you.

There should not be any worry. And in fact the person involved is a grandmother perhaps with
all her children and grand children in the USA and has no need for travel abroad, no need for employment
even if certificate is taken away for a while it is not a big issue. Spedning even $ 50 for a lawyer
is crazy

If any of us got the same letter in the future, then we may have a different
reason for worry but not for the OP

 

[richmondva]

Copies are often insufficient -- you can't apply for a driver's license or state ID or passport with a copy.

There was a thread earlier this year on this forum about a guy who got a notice from USCIS to show up with his green card. He went there and they took it away and told him his green card was granted in error because his priority date wasn't current at the time it was approved. After going home he found out they were wrong, because the bulletin shows his PD indeed was current. Now he has a long fight to get back the card.

My point is that if they do decide to revoke the certificate (or green card in your example above) then does it really matter having the physical certificate or Green card in possession (its just paper junk in my opinion; nothing more than a photocopy)? In fact if one has even slightest of indications that there could be some issue (potential revocation) with the certificate (or green card) then it would not even be advisable to try to use it for any official purposes (getting state ID, passport etc.). It could very well open up a different can of worms.

The best approach would be to take the issue head-on and go to USCIS with the original as more than likely it would be a non-issue anyways.

 

[Jackolantern]

My point is that if they do decide to revoke the certificate (or green card in your example above) then does it really matter having the physical certificate or Green card in possession (its just paper junk in my opinion; nothing more than a photocopy)? In fact if one has even slightest of indications that there could be some issue (potential revocation) with the certificate (or green card) then it would not even be advisable to try to use it for any official purposes (getting state ID, passport etc.). It could very well open up a different can of worms.

Then bring on the worms. They can't administratively revoke somebody's citizenship, so any queries to validate citizenship would still show that she is a citizen. And it is unlikely the certificate would be revoked in the database anytime soon, because of the 60 days notice and those procedures. But if you give them the certificate, you can't use it, regardless of what their database says.

And I also mentioned that it doesn't have to be a revocation issue. If they want to take it back to make a correction, but you know their reason for correction is wrong (e.g. suppose they say the certificate should have the first oath date, which she never attended), better to keep the certificate and challenge their reason, rather than do without it until the situation is resolved.

 

[newapplicant]

They could physically take away the certificate on the spot, and then provide the 60 days notice and other formalities afterwards. So in the meanwhile, although the certificate remains valid in their database while those procedures are going on, you can't use it if you don't physically have it..

This part is impossible.see the section further ,quoted by me,for under
'proof of service part' for the notice.
I guess,CIS will be in great problem if they resort to this confiscating under claim of any type of 'revocation'.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: I am not a lawyer and I am just a lay man without any legal knowledge.!
Read the above STRICTLY at your own risk.

 

[Jackolantern]

This part is impossible.see the section further ,quoted by me,for under
'proof of service part' for the notice.
I guess,CIS will be in great problem if they resort to this confiscating under claim of any type of 'revocation'.

Sometimes they are not afraid to overstep their bounds. They detain and deport citizens every year, without giving them a proper chance to prove their citizenship, or ignoring the proof that is in their face. If they are willing to do that, they won't be afraid to take away a certificate they think was wrongly granted or has mistaken information. Even if they're not supposed to take it away without your consent, they could say that when you handed it over to them to look at it, you consented. Just like there are situations where letting a police officer step inside your house means you consented to a search.

Bottom line is that this person should not show up at the USCIS office with the original certificate. There is nothing to gain by taking the original. If USCIS thinks something is wrong with it, they can look at the copy and explain what is wrong, and then the original can be brought in at another time if the individual agrees with their assessment, or the individual can keep the certificate and challenge their reasons.

 

[Al Southner]

Go in person...

My point is that if they do decide to revoke the certificate (or green card in your example above) then does it really matter having the physical certificate or Green card in possession (its just paper junk in my opinion; nothing more than a photocopy)? In fact if one has even slightest of indications that there could be some issue (potential revocation) with the certificate (or green card) then it would not even be advisable to try to use it for any official purposes (getting state ID, passport etc.). It could very well open up a different can of worms.

The best approach would be to take the issue head-on and go to USCIS with the original as more than likely it would be a non-issue anyways.

I agree with the sentiment expressed by RichmondVA. There is no need to be suspicious of your government, except when they screw you. USCIS is not in the habit of inviting people to their offices for tea and biscuits, it is for an important matters which they need to clear or correct The OP needs to ignore the cynics and head to the office for a person-to-person meeting on what might be the issue. Listen, USCIS don't need the original certificate to cancel it, they have computers in their offices to remotely cancel its validity. So, those who think they can stop USCIS from canceling their certificates of naturalization, be warned. American Express doesn't need the actual physical credit card to cancel it, they have the number and will make it invalid. So, next you go any supermarket, the machine will reject the card...

If your family member, which we all know is you the OP didn't do anything illegal in obtaining this certificate, then he is all set. You should be free to go to the DO and find how you can be of help to them in clearing this issue. Don't apply for US passport until you are assured your current naturalization certificate is the correct and final one with all relevant information, because if you cancel the current certificate, then you will be forced to reapply for a new passport or to request a new one if it was issued within 90 days. You are over analyzing this issue. Enjoy life, especially if you didn't commit any crime in obtaining this certificate. Relax !

 

[WBH]

USCIS don't need the original certificate to cancel it, they have computers in their offices to remotely cancel its validity.

Does Department of State crosscheck with USCIS electronically when
they issue passtport to adopted citizens who present certificate of natualiation inthe passport application?

 

[Al Southner]

Does Department of State crosscheck with USCIS electronically when
they issue passtport to adopted citizens who present certificate of natualiation inthe passport application?

I am 100% sure they check the validity of the document being presented. The US naturalization certificate is a valuable commodity in the black market, because people try all the time to claim US citizenship based on bogus claim. I attended an oath ceremony couple of years ago with a friend, and the officer told them not to make 100 copies of the certificate because it was illegal, secondly because it can be stolen and sold for $$$ in the black market.

If they revoke his citizenship, but he had already applied for US passport, I am certain they will put a note in their computer system to alert any agency of this problem for the individual. For example, let us assumes he/she becomes a nut, refuse to solve this issue, mail the certificate, but also goes overseas for vacation. It is possible that upon return, CBP might detain him to question him over this matter, assuming this certificate of naturalization was cancelled in absentia.

 

[mountaineer]

I am so happy to hear that this letter generated such a lively debate! I can understand since it is indeed a strange letter and at first we thought that it was sent out by accident. Yes, she is a grandmother and all her children and grandchildren live here. She really is harmless (but very sweet!)! Well, I will post the end result once we find out! Sounds like no one has come across this type of letter. Thanks again to everyone for all their help and research!
P.S. She has her passport already and has copies of the certificate.

 

[absrao]

Lot of suggestions. From simple to most scary and complex. All of them are probably valid in their own context.

But given that USCIS gave two options 1) come in person OR 2) send copy of cert in mail, I would choose second, not because of any paranoia but its convenient, safe and less burden on me. Its as simple as that.

 

[Al Southner]

I am so happy to hear that this letter generated such a lively debate! I can understand since it is indeed a strange letter and at first we thought that it was sent out by accident. Yes, she is a grandmother and all her children and grandchildren live here. She really is harmless (but very sweet!)! Well, I will post the end result once we find out! Sounds like no one has come across this type of letter. Thanks again to everyone for all their help and research!
P.S. She has her passport already and has copies of the certificate.

MT,

I hope your grandma didn't do anything illegal... Yes, she need to relax and go to USCIS because what is the worst than can happen to her?

 

[Jackolantern]

If they revoke his citizenship, but he had already applied for US passport, I am certain they will put a note in their computer system to alert any agency of this problem for the individual.

But USCIS does not have the power to revoke citizenship. They can only revoke the certificate. Queries regarding the person's citizenship would still show the citizenship is intact.

 

[WBH]

Lot of suggestions. From simple to most scary and complex. All of them are probably valid in their own context.

But given that USCIS gave two options 1) come in person OR 2) send copy of cert in mail, I would choose second, not because of any paranoia but its convenient, safe and less burden on me. Its as simple as that.

I would go in person. In fact, you may have post-citizenbship blue
and miss USCIS harassment, may be this is the last time you go to
USCIS so cherish this opportunity

 

[Jackolantern]

But given that USCIS gave two options 1) come in person OR 2) send copy of cert in mail, I would choose second, not because of any paranoia but its convenient, safe and less burden on me. Its as simple as that.

Going in person will bring some immediate answers. But sending a copy by mail is likely to result in USCIS taking months to respond.

 

[newapplicant]

But USCIS does not have the power to revoke citizenship. They can only revoke the certificate. Queries regarding the person's citizenship would still show the citizenship is intact.

No revocation just by CIS and it can NOT be independent operation.
Once oath taken,the person was already naturalized.
If CIS wants to revoke, first the proceedings shall be in the court for revocation of NATZ ,if found,then order to be passed by court by decree for revocation of naturalization and then comes subsequent of cancellation of certificate.
I believe,in all probability,Only cancellation not possble at all and can not be an idependent operation in abscense of a decree of de-naturalizing.
Upto green card CIS can revoke for 'admistrative reasons' that too with in 5 years from issuenace of GR.
Please see all the subsection of relevant laws incase of NATZ.
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Note: I am not a lawyer and I am just a lay man without any legal knowledge.!
Read the above STRICTLY at your own risk.

 

[Jackolantern]

No revocation just by CIS and it can NOT be independent operation.
Once oath taken,the person was already naturalized.
If CIS wants to revoke, first the proceedings shall be in the court for revocation of NATZ ,if found,then order to be passed by court by decree for revocation of naturalization and then comes subsequent of cancellation of certificate.
I believe,in all probability,Only cancellation not possble at all and can not be an idependent operation in abscense of a decree of de-naturalizing.

I am not talking about denaturalization. USCIS has the power to administratively revoke a naturalization certificate, but the underlying citizenship remains intact when the certificate is administratively revoked. No court is necessary for them to do that.

 

[absrao]

I would go in person. In fact, you may have post-citizenbship blue
and miss USCIS harassment, may be this is the last time you go to
USCIS so cherish this opportunity

I like this answer . But with USCIS, never say never again.

 

[newapplicant]

USCIS has the power to administratively revoke a naturalization certificate,.

This is where it is not as per the law .Can you please guide me a section of law under INA or CFR or admistrative guidelines or BIA or AAO or any case law decisions ,Executive orders or reported in any forum,where it this kind ,under an umbrella,permitted.
So far what I could see cancellation of natz. certificate action 'alone' by CIS was not possible as an independet operation.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: I am not a lawyer and I am just a lay man without any legal knowledge.!
Read the above STRICTLY at your own risk.