survival time. please act now
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waytoolong
Registered Users (C)
I have seen the CNN special last night (exporting America) on outsourcing (especially Hi-Tech jobs). This website (washTech) was mentioned in the coverage. However, offshoring is not just defined as outsourced jobs but also includes H1B jobs. There seems to be a significant backlash building up both against H1B and outsourced jobs, especially in the Tech sector.
The moral dilemma I have is that, since I am (we all are) in transition between H1B to GC, we are caught between opportunities presented by H1B and the insecurities posed to a perm resident by the same H1B. I see it hypocritical to protest H1B visas or outsourcing. However, I also see my job security going down the toilet very soon because of H1B or outsourcing. Even if I hang on to a job, it will have to be at a pathetic salary. Anyone else on the same boat ?
The moral dilemma I have is that, since I am (we all are) in transition between H1B to GC, we are caught between opportunities presented by H1B and the insecurities posed to a perm resident by the same H1B. I see it hypocritical to protest H1B visas or outsourcing. However, I also see my job security going down the toilet very soon because of H1B or outsourcing. Even if I hang on to a job, it will have to be at a pathetic salary. Anyone else on the same boat ?
Feb2002Case
Registered Users (C)
I totally agree with WayTooLong on this one as I am in the same boat and am not sure whether to oppose or support such a move as my initial enrty into this country is based on H1 and have spent last 4 years on H1 and am waiting currently for GC. Not sure what to do
I am on the same boat with you. I am totally confused. I am on H1 and have been in USA for more than 4 yrs.
I guess I can't consider H1 as outsourcing becouse the salary of an H1 guys almost the same as that of the US citizens/GC holders(though exceptions are always there). I would rather consider H1 as bringing more conpetition to American workforce. Outsourcing to me means jobs that are being done at very low cost (almost one-fourth of the price) outside USA.
What you guys have said is 100% correct and to add to the confusion, I would say that this protest is against our motherland, India. I just don't know what is right and what is wrong in this context. I have my familty here in USA to take care and for that I need a job and at the same time I have my relatives back in India who work in IT industry and they also need to take care of their families.
I guess I can't consider H1 as outsourcing becouse the salary of an H1 guys almost the same as that of the US citizens/GC holders(though exceptions are always there). I would rather consider H1 as bringing more conpetition to American workforce. Outsourcing to me means jobs that are being done at very low cost (almost one-fourth of the price) outside USA.
What you guys have said is 100% correct and to add to the confusion, I would say that this protest is against our motherland, India. I just don't know what is right and what is wrong in this context. I have my familty here in USA to take care and for that I need a job and at the same time I have my relatives back in India who work in IT industry and they also need to take care of their families.
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patienceGC
Registered Users (C)
opposing H1 is not even an option
I am surprised that you guys even think like that. You can stick to your job if you are good at what you do. If someone else can do your job as well for less money... then you need to take a cut on your salary! Thats what capitalism, competition and value is all about! The markets will search for the most efficient option. You just have to find a better job or change careers or make adjustments. People here should be that last to protest against H1. You dont burn the bridge once you cross it!
I am surprised that you guys even think like that. You can stick to your job if you are good at what you do. If someone else can do your job as well for less money... then you need to take a cut on your salary! Thats what capitalism, competition and value is all about! The markets will search for the most efficient option. You just have to find a better job or change careers or make adjustments. People here should be that last to protest against H1. You dont burn the bridge once you cross it!
JACOBKURIAN
New Member
come on guys, most of these jobs go to OUR India. I for one am very happy with this trend. It's vital and great for our development. There will be ample opportunities for us here.
I dont think we need a level playing field.
This is capitalism at work. people here cant talk the talk and then not walk the walk when it piches them.
I dont think we need a level playing field.
This is capitalism at work. people here cant talk the talk and then not walk the walk when it piches them.
middlesex_idiot
Registered Users (C)
BOA worker commits suiside after training H-1B
AMERICAN TECH WORKER
COMMITS SUICIDE
AT
BANK OF AMERICA
Last month Kevin Flanagan commited suicide on his last day of work. Kevin was a typical programmer in his mid forties except the death of Kevin's career occured over many months. Across the country tech workers like Kevin are told to train thier foriegn replacements then shown the door. Severance packages are geared to how well you perform the "knowledge transfer"
I personally know many workers at this Bank of America facility. The feedback is disgust, fear, anger, slanderous but most of all betrayal rings loud and clear, betrayal of thier country, thier communities, families and neighbors.
Many companies caught in the bad PR of outsourcing will buy airtime, give a something to a local Childrens Hospital and then seek absolution in a media blitz. All will be well and forgotten.
If you read the banks commitment to communites they sound like a great corporate citizen, except but they are quietly moving good paying jobs overseas. Of course they will say your personal data, your financials and your home loans are all safe.
There's a crisis a few years off as a typical programmer creates 100 lines of code per day. In just a few years, billions of lines code will be written offshore because we have thousands of companies in a race offshore to save money. There simply just isn't enough time to watch every programmer, contractor, developer and engineer who stops in.
The process of outsourcing is to work with key people to facilitate a clean handoff that may require hundreds of hours of collaboration to complete. You have to wonder why it's called "Knowledge Transfer" , because you need the programmers knowledge before they are gone. You have got to ask what if you needed the knowledge back? GO FISH?
Having done quite a number of bank related projects I know how loose the data is. Many don't scrub the data and often I had GL, AP, AR, account numbers, loans numbers and social security numbers. The plain truth is few programmers or managers trust scrubbed data so most of the time you use real data thats one day old.
If you ask any programmer they will tell you the exact same thing. Would you prefer an American resident who has something to loose or a worker in a foriegn country looking at your records.
Click Here to Learn about B of A
Compare the statements and this article below. Ask yourself, do you see a contradiction in principles.
The last part here is the banking industry is creating specialized lending programs that are NIV, which is targeted at Non-Immigrant Visa holders. So we have millions of unemployed US citizens who have families, houses and cars who can not get a job, but we have special loan programs for Non-Immigrant Visa Holders? The prices in San Jose area are falling as wholesale lenders are looping off 10-15% the appraised price. You can't take 2-3 million high paying jobs without having reprecussions of resounding economic wreckage that will affect every state in the country.
Job losses sap morale of workers
By Ellen Lee
CONTRA COSTA TIMES
In his oldest son's Pleasant Hill home, Tom Flanagan occasionally curses as he walks through the halls and gathers his son Kevin's belongings: the black-and-white photos his son developed in his makeshift darkroom, the household products he had a tendency to buy in bulk, the box-loads of books on computer programming.
More than once, Flanagan shakes his head. "It's a shame," he says. "We lost a good friend and a good mind."
One month ago, Kevin Flanagan took his life in the parking lot of Bank of America's Concord Technology Center, on the afternoon after he was told he had lost his job.
It was "the straw that broke the camel's back," his father said, even though the 41-year-old software programmer suspected it was coming. He knew that his employer, Bank of America Corp., like other giant corporations weathering the economic storm, was cutting high-tech jobs. He knew that Bank of America was sending jobs overseas. He had seen his friends and coworkers leave until only he and one other person remained on the last project Flanagan worked on.
Flanagan took steps to soften the blow. He considered studying law, and even made a list of California schools he was interested in researching. He applied for other jobs at the bank, but didn't receive responses.
In e-mails to his father, Flanagan sounded lighthearted. "I'm safe!" he would write in his Friday missives. "I'm safe for another week."
But Flanagan apparently masked the depth of the distress he felt as he fought to save his position. "He felt like he was fighting a large corporation that pretty much didn't care," his father said. "This final blow was so devastating. He couldn't deal with it." The father said he saw no other signs of depression before his son's suicide.
It is unclear if Flanagan lost his job because it had been sent overseas, or because the bank was slimming down because of the tight economy. Lisa Gagnon, a Bank of America spokeswoman, declined to comment, saying, "We're deeply saddened by this tragedy. We send our prayers to his friends, colleagues and family."
But his death underscores the anxiety that has swelled among technology workers at Bank of America and elsewhere as more businesses shift high-tech jobs and responsibilities to contractors offshore even as they cut jobs in the United States.
A report by Forrester Research projects that, led by the information-technology industry, 3.3 million service jobs and $136 billion in wages will move from the United States to such countries as India and Russia over the next decade or so.
Another survey by A.T. Kearney said that U.S. financial-services companies are planning to send overseas 8 percent of their workforces, thus saving them more than $30 billion.
Coupled with a rough economy and high unemployment, the phenomenon has left U.S. workers looking over their shoulders, wondering if their overseas counterparts could soon replace them. Blue-collar manufacturing jobs have for years crossed U.S. borders and waters. Some workers are bitter that white-collar, high-paying technology jobs are next.
"It could be me," said a Bank of America information-technology employee who spoke on the condition of anonymity. "It could be anybody."
Flanagan's parents say that he complained about the company's move to shift jobs out of the United States and talked about taking care of problems that contractors in India couldn't solve.
"Outsourcing has led to tragedy for us," said Tom Flanagan. "We are devastated."
Flanagan landed at Bank of America seven years ago after spending time at a San Francisco technology company and at ChevronTexaco Corp.
The Concord Technology Center, a cluster of four buildings that opened in 1985, employs programmers such as Flanagan to develop software programs that handle jobs like wire transfers. Throughout the Bay Area, the bank employs some 13,400 workers; the bank would not release the number of workers at the Concord center.
About two years ago, Bank of America created the Global Delivery Center to identify projects that could be sent offshore. In the fall of 2002, it signed agreements with Infosys, whose U.S. headquarters are in Fremont, and Tata Consulting Services, two of the largest players in information-technology consulting and services in India.
AMERICAN TECH WORKER
COMMITS SUICIDE
AT
BANK OF AMERICA
Last month Kevin Flanagan commited suicide on his last day of work. Kevin was a typical programmer in his mid forties except the death of Kevin's career occured over many months. Across the country tech workers like Kevin are told to train thier foriegn replacements then shown the door. Severance packages are geared to how well you perform the "knowledge transfer"
I personally know many workers at this Bank of America facility. The feedback is disgust, fear, anger, slanderous but most of all betrayal rings loud and clear, betrayal of thier country, thier communities, families and neighbors.
Many companies caught in the bad PR of outsourcing will buy airtime, give a something to a local Childrens Hospital and then seek absolution in a media blitz. All will be well and forgotten.
If you read the banks commitment to communites they sound like a great corporate citizen, except but they are quietly moving good paying jobs overseas. Of course they will say your personal data, your financials and your home loans are all safe.
There's a crisis a few years off as a typical programmer creates 100 lines of code per day. In just a few years, billions of lines code will be written offshore because we have thousands of companies in a race offshore to save money. There simply just isn't enough time to watch every programmer, contractor, developer and engineer who stops in.
The process of outsourcing is to work with key people to facilitate a clean handoff that may require hundreds of hours of collaboration to complete. You have to wonder why it's called "Knowledge Transfer" , because you need the programmers knowledge before they are gone. You have got to ask what if you needed the knowledge back? GO FISH?
Having done quite a number of bank related projects I know how loose the data is. Many don't scrub the data and often I had GL, AP, AR, account numbers, loans numbers and social security numbers. The plain truth is few programmers or managers trust scrubbed data so most of the time you use real data thats one day old.
If you ask any programmer they will tell you the exact same thing. Would you prefer an American resident who has something to loose or a worker in a foriegn country looking at your records.
Click Here to Learn about B of A
Compare the statements and this article below. Ask yourself, do you see a contradiction in principles.
The last part here is the banking industry is creating specialized lending programs that are NIV, which is targeted at Non-Immigrant Visa holders. So we have millions of unemployed US citizens who have families, houses and cars who can not get a job, but we have special loan programs for Non-Immigrant Visa Holders? The prices in San Jose area are falling as wholesale lenders are looping off 10-15% the appraised price. You can't take 2-3 million high paying jobs without having reprecussions of resounding economic wreckage that will affect every state in the country.
Job losses sap morale of workers
By Ellen Lee
CONTRA COSTA TIMES
In his oldest son's Pleasant Hill home, Tom Flanagan occasionally curses as he walks through the halls and gathers his son Kevin's belongings: the black-and-white photos his son developed in his makeshift darkroom, the household products he had a tendency to buy in bulk, the box-loads of books on computer programming.
More than once, Flanagan shakes his head. "It's a shame," he says. "We lost a good friend and a good mind."
One month ago, Kevin Flanagan took his life in the parking lot of Bank of America's Concord Technology Center, on the afternoon after he was told he had lost his job.
It was "the straw that broke the camel's back," his father said, even though the 41-year-old software programmer suspected it was coming. He knew that his employer, Bank of America Corp., like other giant corporations weathering the economic storm, was cutting high-tech jobs. He knew that Bank of America was sending jobs overseas. He had seen his friends and coworkers leave until only he and one other person remained on the last project Flanagan worked on.
Flanagan took steps to soften the blow. He considered studying law, and even made a list of California schools he was interested in researching. He applied for other jobs at the bank, but didn't receive responses.
In e-mails to his father, Flanagan sounded lighthearted. "I'm safe!" he would write in his Friday missives. "I'm safe for another week."
But Flanagan apparently masked the depth of the distress he felt as he fought to save his position. "He felt like he was fighting a large corporation that pretty much didn't care," his father said. "This final blow was so devastating. He couldn't deal with it." The father said he saw no other signs of depression before his son's suicide.
It is unclear if Flanagan lost his job because it had been sent overseas, or because the bank was slimming down because of the tight economy. Lisa Gagnon, a Bank of America spokeswoman, declined to comment, saying, "We're deeply saddened by this tragedy. We send our prayers to his friends, colleagues and family."
But his death underscores the anxiety that has swelled among technology workers at Bank of America and elsewhere as more businesses shift high-tech jobs and responsibilities to contractors offshore even as they cut jobs in the United States.
A report by Forrester Research projects that, led by the information-technology industry, 3.3 million service jobs and $136 billion in wages will move from the United States to such countries as India and Russia over the next decade or so.
Another survey by A.T. Kearney said that U.S. financial-services companies are planning to send overseas 8 percent of their workforces, thus saving them more than $30 billion.
Coupled with a rough economy and high unemployment, the phenomenon has left U.S. workers looking over their shoulders, wondering if their overseas counterparts could soon replace them. Blue-collar manufacturing jobs have for years crossed U.S. borders and waters. Some workers are bitter that white-collar, high-paying technology jobs are next.
"It could be me," said a Bank of America information-technology employee who spoke on the condition of anonymity. "It could be anybody."
Flanagan's parents say that he complained about the company's move to shift jobs out of the United States and talked about taking care of problems that contractors in India couldn't solve.
"Outsourcing has led to tragedy for us," said Tom Flanagan. "We are devastated."
Flanagan landed at Bank of America seven years ago after spending time at a San Francisco technology company and at ChevronTexaco Corp.
The Concord Technology Center, a cluster of four buildings that opened in 1985, employs programmers such as Flanagan to develop software programs that handle jobs like wire transfers. Throughout the Bay Area, the bank employs some 13,400 workers; the bank would not release the number of workers at the Concord center.
About two years ago, Bank of America created the Global Delivery Center to identify projects that could be sent offshore. In the fall of 2002, it signed agreements with Infosys, whose U.S. headquarters are in Fremont, and Tata Consulting Services, two of the largest players in information-technology consulting and services in India.
Feb2002Case
Registered Users (C)
Totally agree with PaitenceGC or else we are too selfish.
gctakingtoolong
Registered Users (C)
When the competition increases we have to improve our survival skills. If not for outsourcing it will be something else which would pose a challenge. Welcome to capitalism.
It really hypocritical for us to blame H1 as thats what brought most of us here in the first place.
It really hypocritical for us to blame H1 as thats what brought most of us here in the first place.
waytoolong
Registered Users (C)
There are options you guys are not thinking about - this is still the land of opportunities. It is easier to start and run a business than ever before - you are all smart folks, think of a way to exploit the situation. If you start a business - you labor costs will be low if you outsource. Expand your horizons, think out of the box (I am not talking about IT consulting). Be an entrepreneur - you will create employment both here and India/China/.... , that will be the best of all situations, won't it, if the immigrant community gives back to both countries ?
ZeusChicago
Registered Users (C)
I don't know what to say!! Why don't you all concentrate on improving your skills rather than waste your time...BECAUSE this is inevitable...you cannot stop this from happening. Hope more people like us benefit from capitalism!!
I agree with way...2long
This is exactly the kind of thinking that prevents growth . My uncles came here before 4 decades and unfortunately they too think that immigration is harmful . What they do not understand is that lot of high tech opportunities are created by immigrants . Adaptability is the key to success anywhere . It might be IT-tech. today , and BIO-sciences tomorrow . Adapting to challenges will make this nation all the more better .
-sai
This is exactly the kind of thinking that prevents growth . My uncles came here before 4 decades and unfortunately they too think that immigration is harmful . What they do not understand is that lot of high tech opportunities are created by immigrants . Adaptability is the key to success anywhere . It might be IT-tech. today , and BIO-sciences tomorrow . Adapting to challenges will make this nation all the more better .
-sai
WheresMahGreen
Registered Users (C)
It's a shame!
That some of them are seeking to use Kevin's death in their propoganda against outsourcing. For all we know, Kevin could be a loser with low selfesteem and other complications. This guy would have probably done it even if here laid off from a WalMart store!
If this is gonna create the kind of backlash that some of those shortsighted nuts are hoping it would, I hope they would just pause a moment and think about the various "exploits" this same country has done on other less developed nations. I am not saying it is bad. It is nature of survival and thats how things are. If these guys stop to think about WHY companies do this to remain competitive they wouldn't be arguing their cause.
As much as I feel sorry for Kevin, I strongly feel that some people with malicious intent are putting two disjointed things together for their own benefit.
That some of them are seeking to use Kevin's death in their propoganda against outsourcing. For all we know, Kevin could be a loser with low selfesteem and other complications. This guy would have probably done it even if here laid off from a WalMart store!
If this is gonna create the kind of backlash that some of those shortsighted nuts are hoping it would, I hope they would just pause a moment and think about the various "exploits" this same country has done on other less developed nations. I am not saying it is bad. It is nature of survival and thats how things are. If these guys stop to think about WHY companies do this to remain competitive they wouldn't be arguing their cause.
As much as I feel sorry for Kevin, I strongly feel that some people with malicious intent are putting two disjointed things together for their own benefit.
Its the time now that the people in US should wake up to the fact that the the World is becoming a small and competitive place.
There is no point Just targeting Outsourcing to India and H1B Tech workers.
If You look at other Industries in India (Other than IT) you will see that they are literally wiped out. I know lot of friends working in Mechanical and Electrical engineering Cos who have lost jobs because the companies have closed down since they cannot stand the huge In-flow of cheap goods coming from China.
Its true that IT Compnaies like Microsft,IBM etc are outsourcing work to India But they are also eyeing on potential contracts coming from Govt. organistaions.
To Summarize The whole world and India have been experiencing the Good and the Bad Effect of Globalization since along time now, Its your turn now.Lets face it.
WELCOME !!!!!!!!!!!!!
There is no point Just targeting Outsourcing to India and H1B Tech workers.
If You look at other Industries in India (Other than IT) you will see that they are literally wiped out. I know lot of friends working in Mechanical and Electrical engineering Cos who have lost jobs because the companies have closed down since they cannot stand the huge In-flow of cheap goods coming from China.
Its true that IT Compnaies like Microsft,IBM etc are outsourcing work to India But they are also eyeing on potential contracts coming from Govt. organistaions.
To Summarize The whole world and India have been experiencing the Good and the Bad Effect of Globalization since along time now, Its your turn now.Lets face it.
WELCOME !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Outsourcing is a good news for IT workers in India and it is a bad news for IT workers in USA. I guess that all the guys here
are IT workers (or a specialized skill) in USA. Where is the question for ambiguity here ? The talk of motherland is irrelevant here. It's a foolish talk. I don't want to be thrown out of the window of my client's office because of outsourcing. The talk of upgrading the skills and improving survival skills is also a bulls**t.
people who had already made too much money, only can talk these things. If the total number of jobs are shrinking, how can every one find job by improving the skills ? Also the suggestions of starting a business are not practical. It's not practical for every one to do business and make money. Also the talk of accepting
Globalization is rubbish. If Globalization means taking a majority of jobs away from the country, then nobody wants it. True, Indians in India should fight the closure of local industries due to the flooding of cheaper chinese goods and quality japanese goods. Globalization is a devil and Americans are waking up to it only now.
Down Down Outsourcing and Down Down Globalization.
are IT workers (or a specialized skill) in USA. Where is the question for ambiguity here ? The talk of motherland is irrelevant here. It's a foolish talk. I don't want to be thrown out of the window of my client's office because of outsourcing. The talk of upgrading the skills and improving survival skills is also a bulls**t.
people who had already made too much money, only can talk these things. If the total number of jobs are shrinking, how can every one find job by improving the skills ? Also the suggestions of starting a business are not practical. It's not practical for every one to do business and make money. Also the talk of accepting
Globalization is rubbish. If Globalization means taking a majority of jobs away from the country, then nobody wants it. True, Indians in India should fight the closure of local industries due to the flooding of cheaper chinese goods and quality japanese goods. Globalization is a devil and Americans are waking up to it only now.
Down Down Outsourcing and Down Down Globalization.
Last edited by a moderator:
phaedrus_1
Banned
welcome to Capitalist Economy Kevin!
People like Kevin forgets that America fought Gulf War to create "US Like Open Market And Social Structure".
If BoA or any other company stop controlling costs by measures like outsourcing they would loose business to other banks (say Swiss or Geman banks - many of them already are big in US).
If IBM charges customer 2500$ for stupid american consultant and deliver work worth negative 500$, customer is going to go to InfoSys or others who charge 500$ to deliver 5000$ worth of work.
Coke, McD or any other global American brand is employing 1000s of Americans at the cost of local employment in Africa, Asia and around the world.
That's how open economy works.. learn to adapt or die!
People like Kevin forgets that America fought Gulf War to create "US Like Open Market And Social Structure".
If BoA or any other company stop controlling costs by measures like outsourcing they would loose business to other banks (say Swiss or Geman banks - many of them already are big in US).
If IBM charges customer 2500$ for stupid american consultant and deliver work worth negative 500$, customer is going to go to InfoSys or others who charge 500$ to deliver 5000$ worth of work.
Coke, McD or any other global American brand is employing 1000s of Americans at the cost of local employment in Africa, Asia and around the world.
That's how open economy works.. learn to adapt or die!
Outsourcing!!
In the articles, it is projected as if Americans are the only victims. What about those in H1 who get laid off?? We are in a worse position than Americans. We can't even get welfare!!
Don't blame H1 or outsourcing!! The employers wanted more people thats why they processed H1 in the first place. Its not charity!! And so is Outsourcing!! when companies want to cut cost, they will find a cheaper alternative. If not outsourcing, the companies will lay off the existing employees and rehire the same one for less money (how many times have we heard about this?) or hire new ones for less. This has happened to me!!
We came here because we thought we have more opportunity and better life. If not here, then we will find some place to work - it may be India too!!
Look at the bright side. You would have spent time in US and get a job in India (surely for a good money as a returnee) and be near to your family!!
In the articles, it is projected as if Americans are the only victims. What about those in H1 who get laid off?? We are in a worse position than Americans. We can't even get welfare!!
Don't blame H1 or outsourcing!! The employers wanted more people thats why they processed H1 in the first place. Its not charity!! And so is Outsourcing!! when companies want to cut cost, they will find a cheaper alternative. If not outsourcing, the companies will lay off the existing employees and rehire the same one for less money (how many times have we heard about this?) or hire new ones for less. This has happened to me!!
We came here because we thought we have more opportunity and better life. If not here, then we will find some place to work - it may be India too!!
Look at the bright side. You would have spent time in US and get a job in India (surely for a good money as a returnee) and be near to your family!!
ZeusChicago
Registered Users (C)
If you think resisting outsourcing (and hence globalization) by signing petition will help you…. You could be wrong. US companies compete globally, so if US does not take advantage of the low cost, some other country will. US companies will eventually loose their competitive edge to their foreign competitors. Job loss is going to happen anyway. So by resisting you are only buying yourself some time.
Well it is my belief that smart people see “change” as an opportunity (proactive) while the others just complain/resist (reactive).
Well it is my belief that smart people see “change” as an opportunity (proactive) while the others just complain/resist (reactive).
Guys in favor of closing IT labor markets, do you drive an american car (rather than an Import car), to show solidarity with the US Auto Worker's unions (not because it was cheaper in your specific case).
Else, time to take a good look at the mirror..
PS: I am not affiliated with Auto industry, just trying to illustrate a point. On an individual basis, most people are out to get the best value for their money, so are the corporations..
Else, time to take a good look at the mirror..
PS: I am not affiliated with Auto industry, just trying to illustrate a point. On an individual basis, most people are out to get the best value for their money, so are the corporations..