Some forward looking activity

Well said July16

Fitting reply is given by July16.

dma_va, I can only partially agree with you. Don't try to blame every Moghal. Without using the word muslim your posts implying that you hate muslims or islam. As someone quoted Bernard shaw's quote, the problem may not be in Islam, it is in preachers, mullas etc who is interpreting it.
In all Bagavat Gita is saying about war against enemy, but Gandhi got exactly opposite meaning out of it. As I know no one teaches or preaches Gita as it is, no one says by quoting Gita as we should kill enemy.

You are trying to find and show only bad about Moghals or Muslim rulers. Ex: Tippu Sultan. There were many Hindu rulers as well who did harm to ( or betrayed) other Hindu rulers.

What you said about Darghas may be wrong. I came from a remote village, where Hindus take main role in nearby Dargha & Urs. One Hindu-Visya is taking care of the Darga. In my village I know many people who has names like Darga ( Not Durga, Hindu goddes), Mastanaiah, Peeraiah ( Peer + iah ) etc. People from Hindu and Muslim donate funds to Ram Navami celebration. You may not beleive it, but it is true.

When there was no Muslims in India, people were fighting among them as Shivas and Vishnavas and later as Buddas and Hindus and now as Muslims and Hindus. During Shiva & Vishnavas age no one might had imagined about one temple for Shiva and Vishnu. In future why don't there will be a Musque and Temple under one roof? Why don't we all become only Indians not Hindus, Muslims etc?

Charasala
 
Hi Charsala,

Please show me even one of my quotes wherein I tried to blame every Mughal and Muslim and tried to say that every Masjid and Dargah is bad. Read my replies to Jibran very carefully and then draw any conclusions.

Please Note: I try to take utter precaution in the words I choose for writing my posts. I can challenge anybody if they think I have written anything wrong. But don't say what I have not even written or implied. Infact I never dragged religion in any of my postings to begin with. Only when Jibran started doing that I had to reply him without being derogatory to his religion.

I have only shown my utter detestation with plundering and rapist Mughals. I also mentioned about a common Muslim being as innocent and hardworking as a person from any other religion.

I mentioned the example of Ajmer Sharief as a pious place with an undertaking that I don't claim myself to be a historian at all.

Every statement I listed about Mughal "emperors" is stored in government's archives.


Lastly, like other guys, don't reply unless u bring a proof of what u said about my writings in the beginning (every Mughal, Muslim etc.)................................
 
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I am frustarted.........(in a funny sense)

I am really frustrated with some of the guys (Jibran, Charasala etc.) who try to blame me for something I never said and on asking don't give a damn proof of what they thought I wrote or implied.

Guys, be a man. Either stand up to what u say or back off with regrets.
 
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HABIB DRIVES YOU ALL NUTS...

Give him a break...I think that he is a very lonely and heart-broken person. His life ain't easy and his only way of expressing himself is via the internet, which is good, because otherwise he'd be stoned to death by his enraged comrades.
 
common dma_va

one can easily sense the kind of literature that will follow by the mere sight of that link, let alone go and read all that blabbering.

Everyone understand what point you are trying to make. But if you read history the times when Mughals invaded south Asia from central Asia, it was happening in every part of the world. Was their no fighting in Central Europe, and do you think the winners used to be a generous lots who would happily go back to their lands.

Read about victories of Alexander "the great" or "Crusaders in the holy land" and the aftermath that followed, probably you will have a more rational view of the facts that happened and why.

It was the order of the day, empires were meant to grow. Times have changed now and human behaviour too. And bottom line is a balance of power. Without deterrence no one can maintain soverignity.


If it was not for Mughals, someone else would have invaded us, since Islamic influence was the greatest in South central Asia ,it was done by them.And hence all this hatred towards them.We were desined to be ruled as we were a weak lot, look how British ruled us. And now don't give me that crap that, we are a peace loving group, as our history is replete with wars of Ashoka's and Kalinga's and so on .. so forth.

With regards to conversion taht took place in the past, What do you think about British and French and Portugese, and their colonies all over the world and the conversions that took place. Do you think there was always 35% christian population and every conversion was motivational.

It was a good plan of action by "Saffron Brigade" to bring up this hatred in India and win elections, but to any thinking person, it is non sensical to justify one action over other. As their will be always a counter argument for an argument.
 
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The proof is here

dma_va,

I have not researched all of your posts back. but here is a quote from your earlier post
"Common man is never bad and is never into communalist fighting. It is the fundamentalist leaders who propagate violence. Earlier it used to Mughal Kings and now people like Shai Imam or Bukhari."

By reading the last sentence is it not giving the meaning of "all Mughal Kings were like Shai Imam or Bukhari". I agree there is no "ALL" before Moghals.

I am not trying to criticise you, but without showing some proof "the script that you have posted", for me your posts are giving an impression like you hate Moghals, Muslim, Musque. ( I am not using word ALL :) ). At least there are couple people who agree with me. Is it not a big proof that without physical proof your posts imly that meaning?


Forgive me If I didn't understand your posts.
 
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Charsala and MS001,

FYI, I didn't start this religion thing at all. It was Jibran on this thread who assumed that I have been mentioning about religion. Even then never for once I even tried to quote religion in my discussion with him.

Charasala,

Yes, all Mughal Kings were like Bukhari and Imam and actually much worst. They were the worst inheritors of inhumanity ever born on earth.

What physical proof u need. Didn't I post a link about Akbar and frequently quoted about Arun Shourie?

Now my replies...........................

You r quoting out of context. You will have to see the whole conversation b/w us. And in reply to ur first mail, I did mention that I quoted the word Muslim etc. only because Jibran assumed himself to be a part of (which I never meant at all) bastard Mughal emperors and their courtiers.

If u read Jibran's interaction with me on this topic before ur post came, u would notice he took my counter arguments to his replies as if I am considering every Muslim a bad, plundering and rapist Mughal. I never said that. See my remarks about Muslim farmers etc.

I've been saying, each and every Mughal "King" (king is a keyword here) was a bastard who inherited all their misdeeds from their father/forefather. I have never said a common person is at all to blame. Everyone in Mughal regime was getting tortured." Akbar is worshipped as a real generous one. That's why I gave the weblink about him only to clear those fallacies.

MS001,

The weblink I sent about "Akbar the Great" is not a handiwork of "saffron brigade" as u tried to conclude just by looking at the link (that is a poor way of assuming things). The authors and further references given in this link are based on archives stored in Government of India's libraries. These r not propaganda.

I really disliked ur quote about "being destined to be ruled". The reason is:

Where was the rule? There were only Harems and torturous conversion practices, jajia collection, hand cutting etc. Do u call this a rule?


I calculatively gave example of Gandhiji (a frail man). Had there been a "rule" by Mughals, why is that none of these so called "kings" fought against British thieves. Why did it take people like Tilak, Bhagat Singh to do what they did. Whatever happended to Firozshah etc? If there were really a rule, they would have fought to defend India. But no, thy were so busy in there harem habits and Ayyashis that all they did was create Mir Jafars and Mir Kasims (if u know what they did against their own "Kings") whenever Britishers attacked them.


What I mentioned about Shahi Imam and Bukhari is not at all far from truth. You will have to read about the 80's historical Muradabad/Kanpur riots to know and 1993's Bombay riots as to the cause of what happened.

It is none of my business to mention what happens to people in their own countries, but since u quoted me, I reiterate below:

Accept the fact that in none of the 18 countries, I mentioned earlier to Jibran, there is a semblence of real democracy (and that is not for Indians, that is for their own people).

And as for colonists like British/French/Portugese etc., ofcourse they too came for looting/conversions. But at least they have become democracies now(reasons thereof, for people migrating for jobs etc. there). Would u go to Egypt for working on an IT job (they have started thinking of creating an IT superinfoway) and be able to live as freely as u do in USA/UK etc?

Another example,.......................

We don't get to hear much about happenings in formerly USSR and China because communist crushed any such frequent uprising (of same religious fanaticism) in their countires, and u won't get to know even a piece of news (BBC, CNN only hit against the wall to get any news out of these places without success).



Lastly, I wonder u guys have no message for Jibran's interpretations and statements. Nothing I mentioned was my own creation. This r facts stored in GoI's books.
 
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Can India progress

while its minorities are left behind. Guys do not make sweeping remarks about any religious minority.
Let's not make them feel left out and alieneate them more. They are an integral part of our country.

Let's learn from history rather than calling names to the earlier rulers.What would that produce?

I want to ask you: aren't some of the present day leaders in India worse than the worst we have had?

What do you think Jayalalitha will do if she had the army and power olden days Emperors had.

Its just one example, Can someone with better writing skills post what Laloo would do if he had those???It might make us laugh, we need it.

Please do not let hatred show itself in this board.
 
Funloving,

It is said that one is doomed if one doesn't learn from the History.

When in school, I never realized the significance of understanding history. But now I know why over the world, countries spend enormous amount of money in Universities/research to better understand their history. Why do u have "Discovery Channel" crew going all over the world to learn about civilizations and show a face as they would want the world to see?

It is not hatred. It is to know what is the truth. Post 1947, India has had more than its share of lopsided "Historians" with a certain mould of thinking/writing. They made us kids believe, thru their writings, what suited their vested interest (including coveted lifetime memberships of National Historical Archives etc., with obscene salaries).

With growing education among people, I believe, people like Lallu won't have many days left on the chair.
 
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for dma_va

I pity the fact that, you have not been able to bring home your extremeist point of view even though you been incessant in your emailing. You have been posting atleast three times more than the secong highest just on this thread.

Your extreme views have no supporter and that frustrates you, as you mentioned in one of your replies. It seems very ironical that you are so critical about Islam's being extremist keeping such an extremist view and language (bast.. almost in every line of yours).

Honestly, this is grossly unjustified to make such futile discussion on a working week day. I am signing off and suggest you friend once again, hatred brings hatred. so don't spread it.
 
ms001,

Didn't I say in my last post that these r not facts coming out of my mind purely? These have been suitably archived by GoI for anybody to retrieve and understand (reading won't suffice).

2ndly, I am not frustrated. I replied only when there was a post in reply to my post.
 
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That's what I want to say

dma_va,

I agree with funloving. I agree with you and with your arguments about the past. But please think about present. By just hating the Moghal Kings and spreading hatredness ( doesn't mean that your are spreading) doesn't help India anyway. As I said earlier in some of my posts my writing skills are so bad, I may not be able to convey my message like this, let me give an example.

Many times my wife complains about my perents about several things. She says that they haven't show respect to her when she was in India alone etc, etc.... I know very well that many of her complaints are true, still I never allow her to scold them, because they are my parents even though I don't agree with their deeds.

Doesn't this apply to many Indian muslims? They know the history as you do, but what can they do now.

If I didn't oppose Jibran, doesn't mean that I am supporting him. To heal a wound on my face I can not make wound on other's face. Pointing to someone ancestor's mistakes doesn't help or us anyway.

Charasala
 
Alright Guys,

I am signing off of this topic. I guess I put my viewpoints and read yours and had a nice to not very nice discussion with others. That's fine.

Before I leave, please understand, I have nothing against any of people with other religions. I have enormous number of friends from most religions. Infact, that's not even on my mind when I make a friend.

Common man is just like you and me. We go to our religious places to get mental peace and that's what they are for and should be meant for. Nothing less or more.

It's in my nature to reply if confronted with something which I believe I can counter with facts (because my own personal beliefs r too unimportant to matter). Though I try to form my opinion only after extensively verifying those facts.
 
I have been following this forum

First of all, please don't second guess my religion. I am just an Indian and aspiring to be an Indian American. My keyboard's 'G' letter is not workin properly. Therefore, Please excuse me if I miss G here and there.

dma_va, You have done great job in analyzing the history. In fact, you know much more than I do. However, I understand what you have been trying to say. To re-iterate, we Indians love our fellow Indians, and respect their religion. In fact, there is no other country in the world where so many religions coexist peacefully (well, not exactly). I am proud of India and so are dma_va, charasala, funlovin, ms001 and others. It is evident from the posts here.

Now, coming back to history, yes those invaders and for that matter british too, were barbaric and common people had to suffer a lot. However, those days were different and so was the yardstick of judgement. One lesson that we should definitely learn is, not make the same mistake that those barbarians did. I know, that with the emotions running high (due to crap coming out of ISLAMIC_GC), I also had said wrong things about one of the religions in one of the posts. I condemn my post and apologize for it. Guys, please notice that this forum has helped me refine my approach towards peaceful co-existence. I definitely owe this to all of you building the opinion through these threads.

Let's take Hitler as an example. Americans and europeans hate Hitler, but they accept Germans. I don't think Germans should be asked to take responsibility for what Hitler did. For that matter, we are as guilty as Germans. Again, I know dma_va also tried to say the same, but we are walking on a tight rope here and we got to be perfect in conveying the right meaning. Only way to do that is, by continuing this thread and pour more opinions, which will help others just like me to fine tune their perception.

Keep up the good work guys!
 
I wanted to point out that Indian muslims are not "Mughals" as someone on this board calls himself. Mughals were a dynasty from Central Asia, just like Tughlaq, Mongols, Turks, etc.

All muslims in India (and Christians too) are converts. So Jibran is wrong in saying that he is a mughal.
 
DMA_VA and the likes
Stop you hate mongering lies. The link you provided is another bunch of lies from a organization known for its vitriolic views. India has a history of great rulers both Hindu and Muslim.
Want to know who Akber's main military might was - Maharana Man Singh a rajput who was the commander of his army, followed by Raja Rai Singh one of his top Generals.
Akber’s chief wife was Queen Joda Bai, and I am sure you already know about his Navratan's most of who were Hindu’s. Why were none of them ever converted to Islam. For that matter can you name a single person that was converted by Akber. Please don't supply a list of enemies vanquished in battle who happened to be Hindus. The brutality was the same in those time's irrespective of religion..
Agra under the rule of Akber became a leading center of art, science, commerce and culture.
For a true detail of this great emperor check out the following encyclopedia link.
http://5.1911encyclopedia.org/A/AK/AKBAR.htm
Don't go back in history to justify your hate...your type can change it to suit their agenda's
 
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