Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act

Things will change when ...

marlon2006,

I totally agree with your assesment that things will change when the US economy takes a hit because of the overflow of illegals. When schools and hospitals are over burdened and wages are pushed lower and lower something will happen. I beleive there is still a while to go before that happens.

The only thing that brings this Nation into action is money. Whenever any monetary interest is at stake laws and bills are passed at breakneck speeds. If we appeal on the basis of "humanity","justice" and "compassion" we will only get lipservice.

regards,

saras76
 
saras76 said:
I totally agree with your assesment that things will change when the US economy takes a hit because of the overflow of illegals. When schools and hospitals are over burdened and wages are pushed lower and lower something will happen. I beleive there is still a while to go before that happens.


The undocumented workers are under 5 per cent of the US labour force.
Most of them in lower spectrum...

If the bigest economy in the world can't handle that ... then who can.....
 
Very interesting thoughts. I myself have been thinking on the same lines. I agree that India has made progress but it is not there yet. But the situation in US is not going getting any better either. Immigration system is completely broken and law makers had several opportunities to fix the things - but the fact is that they didn't. There is a little hope now with all the new bills. But again, without being sounding too pessimistic, I think we shouldn't expect immigration system to reform overnight. In my opinion it will be at least 3-4 years. Meanwhile, I am almost definite that EB2 folks will get some relief - can't say anything about EB3 like me.

Now, if you evaluate situation in India versus here, I don't think they will be too far off. At least, in India, you have freedom. Here we are slaves. My company doesn't treat me well and i just can't do anything. I am just looking for some miracle to happen to this immigration system. As soon as I am done with my MBA and meanwhile if nothing materializes, I am going Home. :)

posmd said:
Depends how far ahead you believe America is than India.
Fact is the USA is many decades ahead of India in Development parameters.
Whether that is hard infrastructure or institutional infrastructure. None of that is transferrable, it can be used as a model for replication elsewhere but it does not make it go away from the USA.
In addition to this this country has proportionately more productive and working citizens than most countries. Many people in India work hard but the fruits of their labour is very small not for lack of hard work but since that work is not skilled, or valued highly. None of this changes overnight. The Chinese have greatly increased productivity in manufacturing largely de to US technology migrating there. Sinilar thing with the Indian service sector.
None of these sorts of thing change overnight or even in our lifetimes.
The good news is that these large slumbering giatns(india and china) have finally woken up and enterted the race, the US however is already far ahead.
In addition to this these countries face problems like limitation of resources, and a huge underpriviledged class which the US has less of. India is doing well, but do not strech the reality. There is a long way to go.
Thats why we continue to try to hang on here and many more Indians will continue to try to come here. Last time I checked the lines at the US consulates were not getting any shorter!
 
Boston_GC said:
Very interesting thoughts. I myself have been thinking on the same lines. I agree that India has made progress but it is not there yet.


I think for guys who have an advanced degree from US or UK can be better in India ... but with guys like me who have no degree from US university .. might be better over here...

well I cannot generalise here .. but I speak with reference to my friend who went back. He was my classmate and came down to US in 90's. He went on to do masters and then Phd in electronics... Got himself into HP and was doing very well with a nice house. Well one day he decided to go back .. to Bangalore, India. He got a good job out there .. and is now making 70% of what he was making in US. So a very good pay...out there.
He seems to be happy there .. hmm his wife seems to be even more happier.. no household work.. no childcare problems .. drivers and servants all around ... Many parties and high life ... hmmm

But it all depends ... I do not like servants around in the house... and I do not like over crowded place .. I hate the pollution .. so I feel very good over here ....
 
Protestors march on Capitol to oppose immigration bill

Tens of thousands of immigrant workers rallied outside the U.S. Capitol on Tuesday, protesting what they consider hateful legislation targeting illegal immigration.

A coalition of labor unions, churches and community groups organized the rally against H.R. 4437, a strict border-control and immigration enforcement bill that passed the U.S. House of Representatives late last year.

The rally opened with a prayer, read in both Spanish and English, accusing those who backed the enforcement-only bill of being "atheists," because it ignores Biblical passages that talk about the need to welcome strangers.

"Immigrants do not want to be political scapegoats. We're tired of that," union organizer Jaime Contreras, of the Service Employees International Union, told a sea of people standing below the Capitol steps. Contreras said he came to the country illegally from El Salvador as a teenager, later became a citizen and served in the military.

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The undocumented workers hold :
24 % of all jobs in farming
17 % in cleaning
14 % in construction
12 % in food preparation.

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eBhola said:
I think for guys who have an advanced degree from US or UK can be better in India ... but with guys like me who have no degree from US university .. might be better over here...

well I cannot generalise here .. but I speak with reference to my friend who went back. He was my classmate and came down to US in 90's. He went on to do masters and then Phd in electronics... Got himself into HP and was doing very well with a nice house. Well one day he decided to go back .. to Bangalore, India. He got a good job out there .. and is now making 70% of what he was making in US. So a very good pay...out there.
He seems to be happy there .. hmm his wife seems to be even more happier.. no household work.. no childcare problems .. drivers and servants all around ... Many parties and high life ... hmmm

But it all depends ... I do not like servants around in the house... and I do not like over crowded place .. I hate the pollution .. so I feel very good over here ....

exactly my sentiments ebhola...well put.

(not wanting to further hijack this discussion into india related topic )
.here is what i would like to add to the previous poster who quoted me.

people throw productivity word just like that, i am sure if you talk about high end computing and research india is just starting but make no mistake USA will be the leader and will continue to do so, but lets also realise that many of the innovations that happened are suited to western way of life for westerners, there will be a point in the not so distant future where companies have to innovate for asian markets for asian cuture and lanuage, way of thinking...etc etc because there is market out there that is willing to lap up products. you certainly need talent that is local and understand local nuances..and that is going to create a lot more pressure in the available talent pool.

while the indian streets maybe littered with traffic jams and pot holes,electicity issues some of the same MNCs that you work here have created campuses that are self sufficient and makes you wonder if its really india..so any researcher can do the same thing that he does here in india too......
a lot of changes happened in a decade...you are telling me it won't happen in our lifetime...i do not know about you but i sure expect to see a lot more in my lifetime. have you ever heard of the term leapfrogging technologies...(for example you can go wireless and satellite instead of laying telecom cables for communication)
that is exactly what is happening in india and china..they need not necessarily take the path of USA to develop.

you are assuming that i am saying that india will beat america. i am saying india needs to improve to certain level where it can retain a lot more people than it does now or create a reverse brain drain effect..and that will be a problem for USA because demographically USA, europe, japan and even china are growing old..and there is no quick fix to this problem. all of the above countries have to go after immigrants.
the reason for my post was in the context of retrogression and the effect it can have on people who are waiting. i do not mean it to be india is better than USA.
and i am not stretching the reality, but this poster is sure not understanding the change and pace at which its happening in asia. i would say he is oblivious to reality. again you have to look at jobs from the aspect of outsourcing too. if you are working on cancer research maybe USA is IT. but if you are java developer...USA may not necessarily be it.
 
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leapfrogging technologies

michael_holding said:
have you ever heard of the term leapfrogging technologies...(for example you can go wireless and satellite instead of laying telecom cables for communication)
that is exactly what is happening in india and china..they need not necessarily take the path of USA to develop.

Yes they are skiping a whole big generation....
Take for Example Hong Kong, which offers internet access with speeds at 1 Gbit/s for residential customers.

It might take years and years for this to happen in US or UK.

So in some areas they might even leap forward.

But India is plagued by other problems like rampant corruption, no political liability, pollution and high energy demands’.It might take many years for some concrete changes to occur in these areas.
 
Mr Holding,

Good bouncer but the batsman may duck it or hook it! Productivity is a definable way of measuring the strength of a workforce. It is not merely the quality of the worker that determines this but the institutional framework in which he/she works.
In that sense a lazy pot belly flaunting, smoking worker who works in a combined harvestor is more "productive" than a poor hardworking farmer in the third world. It is frequently the transfer/innovation of that technology that improves productivity. As you correctly pointed out some technologies are more amenable to easy transfer than others. The US and western world is currently undergoing/attempting to shift their workforces so that they can maintian their leadership economically. They are outsourcing jobs that do not need to be done here so that their demographic debacle which you pointed out turns out to be less so. Thye can "get away" with less immigration that way too. They are shifting their workforces to non outsourceable jobs. I am willing to predict that a RN(registerted nurse) will in due course earn on average a higher wage than a computer programmer. These are the trends.

You are correct that Asia is developing its markets..................Bollywood growth is a case in point. However the US and Europe will remain the richest consumer markets in the foreseeable future.

When I speak about things not changing in our lifetime, I am speaking about the counties as a whole. There are already very wealthy Indians living better than you and me in India. Jet setting around the world for vacations etc. Remember in a democracy, the majority rules and if ignorance is the majority then you do the logic. The point is the illiterate masses do not percieve the progress of a few as always beneficial to them, if they voice that at election then the government "of the people for the people" kills the golden goose for the feast. This is the constant balance any democracy has to live with.

I do agree with you that the gradient compelling people to come to the USA will decline, however in our lifetimes it will still be steep enough to attract the brightest talent. Thats why they get away with this mess of an immigration system. Thats my point. I am only too aware of the pace of development in Asia, but one needs to go to rural india/china which represents well over 75% of people and not just look in the Beijings and Bangalores of Asia.
 
you know posmd, i would love counter your points, but i do not want to hijack this thread. maybe we need to create another thread in another place...
even assuming whatever you say is correct (hypothetical case). what is the point of people wanting to come here if they cannot get h-1b because of cap, they cannot apply GC because of labor backlog...cannot adjust to status because the visa dates are not current...i mean people are going to put up with this to a certain degree. some people to a larger degree than others...
its not just the promise of productive, greater quality of life...people want to live that life..in the end if that does not materialize or if it means they have to wait for a long time to get it...peoples attitude might change...

remember the fox and the sour grapes story..this is turning into that. many people are going to try and in the end console themselves and move on...
 
posmd said:
The point is the illiterate masses do not percieve the progress of a few as always beneficial to them, if they voice that at election then the government "of the people for the people" kills the golden goose for the feast. This is the constant balance any democracy has to live with.

illiterate masses are not foolish... I have seen them from inside out... they are quite poltically aware then what U really think.
The things which U define as progress .. might infact mean very little for them.. they have there own world. And there world is not a bad one .. as what U are trying project.

Our ex Company CEO ... who lived in multi-Million dollar home for most of the life .. finally got the inner happiness when is stayed in the caves in himalays with the monks ...
 
Not sure if I misunderstood your viewpoint, but if you mean that whether significant number of IT people would still come without US permanent residency in sight, I strongly believe so. I came here on H1B and my company initially never even talked about GC, and I know that all my friends would love to come here on H1B just to get some experience and go back. I am sure that this trend should continue for a while.

michael_holding said:
you know posmd, i would love counter your points, but i do not want to hijack this thread. maybe we need to create another thread in another place...
even assuming whatever you say is correct (hypothetical case). what is the point of people wanting to come here if they cannot get h-1b because of cap, they cannot apply GC because of labor backlog...cannot adjust to status because the visa dates are not current...i mean people are going to put up with this to a certain degree. some people to a larger degree than others...
its not just the promise of productive, greater quality of life...people want to live that life..in the end if that does not materialize or if it means they have to wait for a long time to get it...peoples attitude might change...

remember the fox and the sour grapes story..this is turning into that. many people are going to try and in the end console themselves and move on...
 
marlon2006 said:
I know that all my friends would love to come here on H1B just to get some experience and go back. I am sure that this trend should continue for a while.

The job market drives the movement of people accross the globe ....
But now ... even the jobs are moving around.....

So when the jobs move away -- many guys from here make it rich by going with it... they go and become CEO's and what not, where the job finally docks.

For guys who have masters and Phd's from US universities, get very lucrative offers in India, china, Taiwan etc which they cannot resist...

But in the other end of spectrum there are guys who are in India who have not been able to absorb into the job market over there ... they want to be in US to strike it rich ... and yes most of the time they strike it rich.
 
Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton

Sen. Hillary Clinton, a potential White House candidate in 2008, said Wednesday some Republicans are trying to create a "police state" to round up illegal immigrants.

"Don't turn your backs on what made this country great," she said.
 
Nurses & Physical Therapist

There seems to be a very high demand for Nurses and Phyiscal Therapist from India and Phillipines.

Why does US not open a school with crash course in Nursing to get them here at the faster pace ?
 
H-1B and Automatic GreenCard.

Buried in the Senate's giant immigration bill -- hardly noticed amid a fierce debate over a guest-worker program for unskilled laborers -- are provisions that would open the country's doors to highly skilled immigrants for science, math, technology and engineering jobs.


The measures include nearly doubling the number of H-1B skilled-worker temporary visas to 115,000 -- with an option of raising the cap 20 percent more each year.


The provisions were sought by Silicon Valley tech companies and enjoy significant bipartisan support amid concern that the United States might lose its lead in technology. They would broaden avenues to legal immigration for foreign tech workers and would put those with advanced degrees on an automatic path to permanent residence should they want it.
 
All Backlogs will end by OCT 01.... Chamatkar or Amnesty?

The new director of the nation's immigration service said Thursday that the agency should get through a backlog of immigrant petitions in time to handle a guest worker program if it is approved.

"We hope to have, quite frankly, the backlog taken care of before we inherit another program," said U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services Director Emilio Gonzalez said during a teleconference.

The Senate Judiciary Committee has been debating a guest worker program that would give temporary worker status to immigrants.

But that would greatly increase the workload of the agency already facing a backlog that has left some immigrants waiting up to 2 1/2 years for citizenship or "green cards" providing permanent residence status.

The Bush administration has set an Oct. 1 deadline for the backlog to be eliminated by the agency, which processes applications for citizenship, permanent residence, work permits and other immigration documents.


Viva Bush...
 
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Great news if true ...

nTan said:
The new director of the nation's immigration service said Thursday that the agency should get through a backlog of immigrant petitions in time to handle a guest worker program if it is approved.

"We hope to have, quite frankly, the backlog taken care of before we inherit another program," said U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services Director Emilio Gonzalez said during a teleconference.

The Senate Judiciary Committee has been debating a guest worker program that would give temporary worker status to immigrants.

But that would greatly increase the workload of the agency already facing a backlog that has left some immigrants waiting up to 2 1/2 years for citizenship or "green cards" providing permanent residence status.

The Bush administration has set an Oct. 1 deadline for the backlog to be eliminated by the agency, which processes applications for citizenship, permanent residence, work permits and other immigration documents.


Viva Bush...

ntan,

This sounds good on paper. The bottom line is that this so called "backlog" can be eliminated if there is a will to do so. If the right pressure is applied from the right places, the progress will be quick and enormous. The only problem is that a lot is said and very little is ever done. Most policies drown in government red tape. If the white house shows a true inclination to get this backlog eliminated it will get done. However, with so many internal problems plauging the current administration, I think this issue will die a quiet death ...

regards,

saras76
 
My attorney has been working in this immigration field for 25 years and he told me:I believe it when I see it.

They keep saying about eliminating backlogs for years now.

saras76 said:
ntan,

This sounds good on paper. The bottom line is that this so called "backlog" can be eliminated if there is a will to do so. If the right pressure is applied from the right places, the progress will be quick and enormous. The only problem is that a lot is said and very little is ever done. Most policies drown in government red tape. If the white house shows a true inclination to get this backlog eliminated it will get done. However, with so many internal problems plauging the current administration, I think this issue will die a quiet death ...

regards,

saras76
 
marlon2006 said:
They keep saying about eliminating backlogs for years now.


Yes that is true ... they say it and then they run into a ditch.

But if the guest worker program gets going then --

USCIS have to hire more staff ---- double or triple there current strength.

OR

Some how clear all the EB guys aways, to free them up.


Shortage of time and resources might be good for some EB guys whose company records are less than perfect..
Adjucators with not have much time to look into company details ...

Looks good for desi companies.... they can continue to file mutiple 140 on the same labor...:)
 
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State poll on illegal immigration

A recent statewide poll incidated that an increasing number of Califorians' don't consider illegal immigration as a negative trend. The Field Poll showed that 47 percent of state residents see illegal immigration as beneficial to the state's economy.

That number is a signifacant increase from a 1982 study, when just 19 percent saw it as favorable.
 
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