Question about pre draw eliminations? (If they exist)

[slash_dot]

Painfull memories the DV 2012 because i was a former selectee... Now i think about it, how come I've been selected even though my picture didn't meet the requirement?
when I submited my entry last october, I took a close look at the requirement & realized that my last year picture was way off the rules... Streached with shadows on the wall & on my clothes, the head wasn't the right position nor dimention...

What could have happened that I've been selected even with a wrong photo format?

Sorry to hear about your negative experiences with the 1st May 2011 draw.

In relation to your picture - you state that it was incorrectly taken, but I can't imagine it to was too incorrect. What I mean is at the very least while it didn't meet the correct specifications of the DV Instructions, it nonetheless passed the validator check, otherwise it would not have let you submit the entry I believe.

As someone else said in a different thread:

"[The Validator]...has only technical ability to check things that could be checked easily - resolution, RGB format, number of bits, file size "

The above statement makes sense to me. Of course you could have been denied at the interview if the picture that you submitted looked so unrecognisable that might conceivably not be you, but we'll never know now.

 

[jayo2k]

Sorry to hear about your negative experiences with the 1st May 2011 draw.

In relation to your picture - you state that it was incorrectly taken, but I can't imagine it to was too incorrect. What I mean is at the very least while it didn't meet the correct specifications of the DV Instructions, it nonetheless passed the validator check, otherwise it would not have let you submit the entry I believe.

As someone else said in a different thread:



The above statement makes sense to me. Of course you could have been denied at the interview if the picture that you submitted looked so unrecognisable that might conceivably not be you, but we'll never know now.

But don't they manualy check each selectees after that? Because one can put & obama picture, or jus a shadow... They have 6 month to release the results, i do not think that the computer needs 6 months to selects approx 100k entries, hey must use thoses 6 month to do somethiing else. & as the last year fiasco showed is that they can do the selection in just 2 months

 

[Schoolboy]

Painfull memories the DV 2012 because i was a former selectee... Now i think about it, how come I've been selected even though my picture didn't meet the requirement?
when I submited my entry last october, I took a close look at the requirement & realized that my last year picture was way off the rules... Streached with shadows on the wall & on my clothes, the head wasn't the right position nor dimention...

What could have happened that I've been selected even with a wrong photo format?

@Jayo2k,May 1st result was a computer glitch but your photo may had scaled through the facial sophisticated modern technology and detector called RED EYE PHOTO REMOVAL MACHINE.Its to detect correct and incorrect photo.So your photo may had met the requirement/specification of DOS depending on how you may look at it cos if your photo did not meet the requirement/specification then you woudn't had been selected you would had been disqualify or eliminated before the draw.

 

[Schoolboy]

But don't they manualy check each selectees after that? Because one can put & obama picture, or jus a shadow... They have 6 month to release the results, i do not think that the computer needs 6 months to selects approx 100k entries, hey must use thoses 6 month to do somethiing else. & as the last year fiasco showed is that they can do the selection in just 2 months

@Jayo2k,DOS has all entries whether selected or not been selected on there Data base.So its just a computer programming check not manual.The random draw is being done every January/february after that DOS still have time to re-check all the correct datas and photos of all selected applicants before they finally put the all results on there website.Incorrect and correct entries are being checked before the draw and after the draw.Within the 6months DOS still uses there preciouse time for other relevant/immigration issues not just for only DVlottery alone.

 

[slash_dot]

But don't they manualy check each selectees after that? Because one can put & obama picture, or jus a shadow... They have 6 month to release the results, i do not think that the computer needs 6 months to selects approx 100k entries, hey must use thoses 6 month to do somethiing else. & as the last year fiasco showed is that they can do the selection in just 2 months

The photo specifications are set in order to get as many people as possible to submit a photograph that is legible, and to help inform applicants of the specification considered to be acceptable for photographs.

You say the photo you took was not to requirements. As long as it passed the “Photo Validator” I presume it was considered prima facie acceptable. In the same thread someone said that they took a rubbish photograph. Nonetheless we are told that it was successfully submitted, the CO at the interview didn't have a problem with it, and he got the visa. This is probably because the photograph, while not to exact requirements, looked like the applicant.

Do you still have the picture that you submitted for DV 2012? I'd be curious if the validator accepts it or not.

We do not know what the internal specifications or operations manual inside the KCC says, nor how they actually vet applications. I have never seen a source for the claim substandard photographs that otherwise pass the “validator check” and are in an otherwise valid entry are automatically rejected by the KCC, only duplicate entries.

According to this thread someone was rejected at the interview for the wrong type of background in the photo (green/blue). As I said before, you could have got to the interview and been rejected.

The KCC isn't an omnipotent God of photographic standards. By going on the case(s) above, they clearly do not automatically reject applicants because of a bad photo; they let the CO do it after the applicant has paid. Let’s think about this logically:

If they did, and what you say is true, you would not have been selected, nor would the person in the thread I linked.

Moreover, EVEN if the KCC did reject automatically how would anyone outside the employees of the KCC, let alone the applicant, know? Ostensibly there is no difference for the rejected applicant between getting rejected for a bad photo and not getting selected – the rejection notice on the ESC website would be identical.

Thus, as long as the photograph somewhat meets the specifications, and is clearly represents your identity, you should be fine.

I have never seen a source for the claim KCC employees manually scour applicant photographs that are otherwise not flagged. If anyone knows of one I'd be interested to see it.

 

[Schoolboy]

But don't they manualy check each selectees after that? Because one can put & obama picture, or jus a shadow... They have 6 month to release the results, i do not think that the computer needs 6 months to selects approx 100k entries, hey must use thoses 6 month to do somethiing else. & as the last year fiasco showed is that they can do the selection in just 2 months

The photo specifications are set in order to get as many people as possible to submit a photograph that is legible, and to help inform applicants that take photographs what is are considered to be acceptable.

You say the photo you took was not to requirements. As long as it passed the “Photo Validator” I presume it was considered prima facie acceptable. In the same thread someone said that they took a rubbish photograph. Nonetheless we are told that it was successfully submitted, the CO at the interview didn't have a problem with it either and he got the visa. This is probably because the photograph, while not to exact requirements, looked like the applicant.

Do you still have the picture that you submitted for DV 2012? I'd be curious if the validator accepts it or not.

We do not know what the internal specifications or operations manual inside the KCC says, nor how they actually vet applications. I have never seen a source for the claim substandard photographs that otherwise pass the “validator check” and are in an otherwise valid entries are automatically rejected by the KCC, only duplicate entries.

According to this thread someone was rejected at the interview for the wrong type of background in the photo (green/blue). As I said before, you could have got to the interview and been rejected.

The KCC isn't an omnipotent God of photographic standards. By going on the case above, they clearly do not automatically reject applicants because of a bad photo, they let the CO do it after the applicant has paid, let’s think about this logically:

If they did, and what you say is true, you would not have been selected, nor would the person in the thread I linked.

Moreover, EVEN if the KCC did reject automatically how would anyone, let alone the applicant, know outside the employees of the KCC? Ostensibly there is no difference for the rejected applicant between getting rejected for a bad photo and not getting selected – the rejection notice on the ESC website would be identical.

Thus, as long as the photograph somewhat meets the specifications and is clearly represents your identity, you should be fine.

I have never seen a source for the claim employees at the KCC manually scour applicant photographs, if anyone knows of one otherwise I'd be interested to see it.

@slash_dot,i guess you are right.

 

[jayo2k]

So many usefull infos, thanks very much for that.
that sucks for the guy who got the visa denied just for a backround color

 

[verdite]

So many usefull infos, thanks very much for that.
that sucks for the guy who got the visa denied just for a backround color

He clearly didn't follow instructions. By the way the photo validator is not responsible for the total screening of all photos but just to make sure they fall within certain parameters in terms of size and format etc. You cld still pass through the validator even if you wore head gear but that doesn't mean since the validator has passed your photo then its valid/acceptable. Which brings to the above case of the guy who got denied a visa at the embassy because of a Blue/Green background wall. So its just best and safe to follow instructions in the first place

 

[Schoolboy]

He clearly didn't follow instructions. By the way the photo validator is not responsible for the total screening of all photos but just to make sure they fall within certain parameters in terms of size and format etc. You cld still pass through the validator even if you wore head gear but that doesn't mean since the validator has passed your photo then its valid/acceptable. Which brings to the above case of the guy who got denied a visa at the embassy because of a Blue/Green background wall. So its just best and safe to follow instructions in the first place

@verdite,you are wrong even if the photo validator technology accept photo with head gear,uniform,tinted glass.Every single photo is being double checked before and after the draw.So i can't tell if that guy photo wasn't an off white background or the blue/green background.The guy would have taken a new photo with the correct background and send it along with his DS-230 form to KCC and with two copies to the embassy.So i guess maybe that s what gets him denied base on the wrong photo background which he could have rectify or corrected with a new photo with right background.

 

[slash_dot]

He clearly didn't follow instructions. By the way the photo validator is not responsible for the total screening of all photos but just to make sure they fall within certain parameters in terms of size and format etc. You cld still pass through the validator even if you wore head gear but that doesn't mean since the validator has passed your photo then its valid/acceptable. Which brings to the above case of the guy who got denied a visa at the embassy because of a Blue/Green background wall. So its just best and safe to follow instructions in the first place

This makes sense to me. The applicant has complete responsibility for the content of the photo. The "Photo Validator", in my opinion, just sees whether it is prima facie acceptable in terms of the photo's technical constitution. It could be a picture of your pet dog for all it knows.

The DV Instructions explain clearly the consequences for incorrect photographs submitted with the E-DV application:

"Failure to enter the correct photograph of each individual into the E-DV system may result in disqualification of the principal applicant and refusal of all visas associated with the case at the time of the visa interview.

[...]

Entries are subject to disqualification and visa refusal for cases in which the photographs are not recent, show manipulation in any way, or fail to meet the specifications explained below.

[...]

Background
o The person being photographed should be in front of a neutral, light-colored background.
o Dark or patterned backgrounds are not acceptable."

(Page 3).

Blue / Green is not neutral. I imagine neutral background(s) are required at the E-DV stage for the facial recognition software employed by the KCC on behalf of the DoS. It is well known that neutral / plain backgrounds are required for uniformity. Textured / unneutral backgrounds with colours, lines, curves etc can cause computer face finding algorithms to become confused. (see Oriana Yuridia, "Selected Quality Metrics for Digital Passport Photographs", (2006) pp 47.)

The upshot of this is an applicant could potentially avoid / fool security checks and / or duplicate entry checks (whatever the case) against KCC / US-VISIT database(s) by using non-standard background(s) for his photographs, whether unintentionally or on purpose.

The use of the word "may" in the DV Instructions indicate it is not an automatic rejection by the KCC, but rather a discretionary denial at interview by the CO depending on how badly the photo strays from the specifications.

That's my opinion, anyway.

 

[Schoolboy]

This makes sense to me. The applicant has complete responsibility for the content of the photo. The "Photo Validator", in my opinion, just sees whether it is prima facie acceptable in terms of the photo's technical constitution. It could be a picture of your pet dog for all it knows.

The DV Instructions explain clearly the consequences for incorrect photographs submitted with the E-DV application:

"Failure to enter the correct photograph of each individual into the E-DV system may result in disqualification of the principal applicant and refusal of all visas associated with the case at the time of the visa interview.

[...]

Entries are subject to disqualification and visa refusal for cases in which the photographs are not recent, show manipulation in any way, or fail to meet the specifications explained below.

[...]

Background
o The person being photographed should be in front of a neutral, light-colored background.
o Dark or patterned backgrounds are not acceptable."

(Page 3).

Blue / Green is not neutral. I imagine neutral background(s) are required at the E-DV stage for the facial recognition software employed by the KCC on behalf of the DoS. It is well known that neutral / plain backgrounds are required for uniformity. Textured / unneutral backgrounds with colours, lines, curves etc can cause computer face finding algorithms to become confused. (see Oriana Yuridia, "Selected Quality Metrics for Digital Passport Photographs", (2006) pp 47.)

The upshot of this is an applicant could potentially avoid / fool security checks and / or duplicate entry checks (whatever the case) against KCC / US-VISIT database(s) by using non-standard background(s) for his photographs, whether unintentionally or on purpose.

The use of the word "may" in the DV Instructions indicate it is not an automatic rejection by the KCC, but rather a discretionary denial at interview by the CO depending on how badly the photo strays from the specifications.

That's my opinion, anyway.

@slash_dot,in my own opinion since the lottery is no more paper base,its now electronic base program,i think the photo validator technology is design to detect exact duplicates and elimination through facial recognition technology and aslo to detect multiples/fraudulents entries.I believe the validator machine/computer is to detect the required/programmed size of photo.While the work of DOS staff is to check if the photo completely has the correct specification/required background like the off-white and neutral background and if the image/photo is
1.Vertical oriented
2.If its recent within 6months
3.Also to check if the person is directing facing the camera
4.Positioning
5.The color of the clothing worned if the contrast is too high too overlight or toodark
6.shadow on face or shadow on background
7.Applicant on photo covering his or her head or putting on tinted glass
8.Face not in a neutral position
9.Over smile with teeth showing out
DOS check of incorrect/correct photos and datas of every entries before the draw and after the draw.That s why after the closing program for the fiscal year you will notice on www.dvlottery.state.gov that DOS has stopped accepting entries and have now gone into processing.So its what i think that DOS would be taken their time for checking correct datas and correct photo and eliminating incorrect datas and incorrect photo before getting all the qualify entries that would go into th random draw.

 

[verdite]

[QUOTE That s why after the closing program for the fiscal year you will notice on www.dvlottery.state.gov that DOS has stopped accepting entries and have now gone into processing.So its what i think that DOS would be taken their time for checking correct datas and correct photo and eliminating incorrect datas and incorrect photo before getting all the qualify entries that would go into th random draw.[/QUOTE]
.
.
My question is IF KCC checks all enteries for the correct picture requirements. How come they end up approving someone to go on to the interview stage where he gets denied a visa at the Embassy because his inital entry picture had a blue/green background??? How come KCC didn't notice that discrepancy in the beginning??

 

[makeiteasier]

Hmmm

Painfull memories the DV 2012 because i was a former selectee... Now i think about it, how come I've been selected even though my picture didn't meet the requirement?
when I submited my entry last october, I took a close look at the requirement & realized that my last year picture was way off the rules... Streached with shadows on the wall & on my clothes, the head wasn't the right position nor dimention...

What could have happened that I've been selected even with a wrong photo format?

As long as the photo passed the validate, it will make to the entry...what happens after that is the big question. You wouldn't have been able to make it through without a validated picture.

Yes, May 2011 results were such a roller coaster. I was selected in May 1 as well as my spouse only to meet dooms day of May 13th.

As for the 50000 visas, I think I support the theory that these are the selectees only. The derivatives get the same case file but are not included in this count.

Poor guy denied at interview for picture? Am sure they were just looking for a reason to deny him and wanted to annoy him that it was his picture! (just IMO)

 

[Schoolboy]

As long as the photo passed the validate, it will make to the entry...what happens after that is the big question. You wouldn't have been able to make it through without a validated picture.

Yes, May 2011 results were such a roller coaster. I was selected in May 1 as well as my spouse only to meet dooms day of May 13th.

As for the 50000 visas, I think I support the theory that these are the selectees only. The derivatives get the same case file but are not included in this count.

Poor guy denied at interview for picture? Am sure they were just looking for a reason to deny him and wanted to annoy him that it was his picture! (just IMO)

@Verdite, DOS instructions clearly stated that entries/applicants get disqualify or eliminated or being denied visa for
1.wrong addressing
2.wrong format
3.incorrect photo
4.missing of info
5.missing of interpretation
6.multiples/fraudulents entries and other misconduct issues.
Now what i think about KCC/DOS is that they check all entries before the draw and after the draw.I guess the photo validator may had accepted the photo of that guy because of the right size but DOS on the other hand never throughly checked the background of the photo if met the requirement after the draw which i strongly believe that KCC/DOS may had realised the photo wasn't up to the requirement after the uploading of the results on there website when re checking and the only way to gets the guys disqualify is to deny him the visa at the embassy but then we would not say that KCC/DOS are not doing there job cos anything could be possible after we are all humans even though DOS try to make applicants believe that they have modern technology to detect multiples/fraudulents entries or incorrect photo size.These are ways DOS meant by applicants could gets disqualifyor visa deny if not met the requirement .And i still believe that KCC/DOS finds it easier to check incorrect datas than spending more time on checking applicants photo and to reduce the stress. That s why they came up with RED EYE PHOTO REMOVER MACHINE which is to detect the right size of photo while KCC/DOS does the checking of background or if met the requirement.So in all of these one cannot cheat DOS and get away.I think this is what i have to say.