Please can anyone advise..

[mally1975]

Thank you Baikal3 and Jackolantern

Yes, you always have to prove citizenship when applying for the passport, the difference is how many documents you need as proof.

Since you don't have the N-600 at this time, to prove your citizenship you have to submit a large stack of documents about your father's citizenship, marriage, the years he lived in the US, etc. But after you have an approved N-600, that certificate by itself is your proof of citizenship when applying for your next US passport (or other situations where you need to prove citizenship, such as applying for a US driver's license or a government job that requires citizenship), without having to dig up any documents about your father again.

Oh I'm in the process of collating a huge stack of documents lol.. Since my last post, I've got my dad's military records and high school records on the way from my lovely Aunt in the US.. I've got his birth and death certificates ordered and as of last night, I found my father's US social security number which apparently is his USAF number (not sure on the finer point of this yet).. I've also got a UK court case where my mum won custody of me from my dad officially in 1981 but this was due to his non-appearance.. I've got my UK based dual national half-brother on board (my father's son with another woman) in case it goes to DNA to prove paternity if needed.. Phew!!.. Obviously I have my own birth certificate and usual UK documents..

Is there any other conceivable thing I might possibly need that I've forgotten about?.. Mx

 

[Jackolantern]

I've also got a UK court case where my mum won custody of me from my dad officially in 1981 but this was due to his non-appearance..

Don't send that in, since what matters is what happened before your birth. And if that custody case made a difference, it would help rather than hurt because it would be showing your US citizen parent losing custody.

Similarly, of his military records the only records that matter are those that show his years service before you were born and that he was still alive when you were born.

I've got my UK based dual national half-brother on board (my father's son with another woman) in case it goes to DNA to prove paternity if needed.. Phew!!

Your brother is not really relevant to your case, unless he was born outside the US and has successfully claimed US citizenship through your father.

But a notarized affidavit from your father's US citizen parents could be helpful. Ask them to put together a one-page letter stating they are US citizens*, they are his parents, and a few facts about your father such as that he lived in the US with them from his birth in xx/xx/19xx in city/state XYZ until 19xx, and have both of them sign it and get it notarized. That is if it's not too much trouble for them... it's not an essential piece of evidence.


*attach proof of their citizenship -- preferably copies of their passports, since the consulate can more easily verify passports than birth certificates.

 

[baikal3]

Oh I'm in the process of collating a huge stack of documents lol.. Since my last post, I've got my dad's military records and high school records on the way from my lovely Aunt in the US.. I've got his birth and death certificates ordered and as of last night, I found my father's US social security number which apparently is his USAF number (not sure on the finer point of this yet).. I've also got a UK court case where my mum won custody of me from my dad officially in 1981 but this was due to his non-appearance.. I've got my UK based dual national half-brother on board (my father's son with another woman) in case it goes to DNA to prove paternity if needed.. Phew!!.. Obviously I have my own birth certificate and usual UK documents..

Is there any other conceivable thing I might possibly need that I've forgotten about?.. Mx

Did your father go to college in the U.S.? If yes, try to get his college records, particularly transcripts.

 

[mally1975]

Thank you..

Did your father go to college in the U.S.? If yes, try to get his college records, particularly transcripts.

At the moment, the records are looking like he went straight into the military from school.. I think this one will need some digging.. Thank you for the advice..

 

[mally1975]

Don't send that in, since what matters is what happened before your birth. And if that custody case made a difference, it would help rather than hurt because it would be showing your US citizen parent losing custody.

Similarly, of his military records the only records that matter are those that show his years service before you were born and that he was still alive when you were born.

Your brother is not really relevant to your case, unless he was born outside the US and has successfully claimed US citizenship through your father.

But a notarized affidavit from your father's US citizen parents could be helpful. Ask them to put together a one-page letter stating they are US citizens*, they are his parents, and a few facts about your father such as that he lived in the US with them from his birth in xx/xx/19xx in city/state XYZ until 19xx, and have both of them sign it and get it notarized. That is if it's not too much trouble for them... it's not an essential piece of evidence.


*attach proof of their citizenship -- preferably copies of their passports, since the consulate can more easily verify passports than birth certificates.

Again, thank you.. I've got to consider how all this looks to an official investigator aswell.. Especially when you consider my age, it must look very odd.. I've got the forms, I've got the evidence on the way, I've got the appointment with the passport office - so let's see what happens..

 

[Jackolantern]

Don't send that in, since what matters is what happened before your birth. And if that custody case made a difference, it would help rather than hurt because it would be showing your US citizen parent losing custody.

Oops, I meant "hurt rather than help".

Again, thank you.. I've got to consider how all this looks to an official investigator aswell.. Especially when you consider my age, it must look very odd..

Yes, the consulates can be very skeptical of these out-of-the-blue claims to citizenship. Your evidence needs to be solid. Do you have 12 or more years of evidence of him living in the US? (including military service which is counted as being in the US) You might need that just to get them to accept 10 years (and that's 10 years before your birth, the years after that don't count). For example, for his high school records they'll probably only count 8 or 9 months per year because of the breaks between semesters (he could have spent that time outside the US).

I've got the forms, I've got the evidence on the way, I've got the appointment with the passport office - so let's see what happens..

"Passport office"? Do you mean the consulate or embassy?

What evidence are you going to present? Do you have your parents' marriage and divorce certificates?

 

[mally1975]

Oops, I meant "hurt rather than help".

Yes, I read that as was what you meant particularly with regards to the court paper. It's just something my mother gave me

Yes, the consulates can be very skeptical of these out-of-the-blue claims to citizenship. Your evidence needs to be solid. Do you have 12 or more years of evidence of him living in the US? (including military service which is counted as being in the US) You might need that just to get them to accept 10 years (and that's 10 years before your birth, the years after that don't count). For example, for his high school records they'll probably only count 8 or 9 months per year because of the breaks between semesters (he could have spent that time outside the US).

I'm making sure I have Gary's (my father) ENTIRE life for evidence - I have all of it from birth, including school and militiary records and where he lived with his parents.. Only thing which will be missing is his 'wilderness years' and final passing away in 2007. Via Gary's social security number, I can't find him on any records from 2002-ish to death but he died in the USA and it's assumed that he lived rough for the period above so it's off the radar for him..

"Passport office"? Do you mean the consulate or embassy?

Yes I do, I'm going to bombard them with evidence of my father's birth and whereabouts and see if they grant me a US passport *fingers crossed*.

What evidence are you going to present? Do you have your parents' marriage and divorce certificates?

My mother and Gary were not married. I can't find their marriage certificate nor can I locate divorce papers, my mother believed they were but that's not what the evidence suggests (as in there was no legal ceremony).. I'm assuming therefore, I'll go down the route of 'Derivative Citizen by Birth - Out of Wedlock'.. I'm not worried though, the DNA/blood test that I may be sent for to prove my claim with legitimation is likely and I have all my relatives on board for that outcome.. My grandmother is sorting out an affidavit with regard to 1979 when Gary sent his US family photos and a letter of 'his daughter'.. The letter is believed lost BUT the photos remain - my grandmother then enlisted a private detective to find Gary, my mother and I from that letter.. There are further photos from their trip that I have copies of..

My main problem is that Gary was a liar and a fantasist so unravelling his life and records has not been easy.. Even my half-brother has a different story about Gary and he lied to them aswell..

Still just hoping I have enough evidence.. As once it's proved that I am Gary's daughter, I will be sorting out a few family matters lol.. Mx

 

[Jackolantern]

My mother and Gary were not married. I can't find their marriage certificate nor can I locate divorce papers, my mother believed they were but that's not what the evidence suggests (as in there was no legal ceremony)..

If they were not married, that could seriously damage your case due to the added burden of proof for out-of-wedlock children.
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_5199.html

Birth Abroad Out-of-Wedlock to a U.S. Citizen Father – “New” Section 309(a)

A person born abroad out-of-wedlock to a U.S. citizen father may acquire U.S. citizenship under Section 301(g) of the INA, as made applicable by the “new” Section 309(a) of the INA provided:

A blood relationship between the person and the father is established by clear and convincing evidence;
The father had the nationality of the United States at the time of the person’s birth;
The father was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions prior to the child’s birth for five years, at least two of which were after reaching the age of 14.
The father (unless deceased) has agreed in writing to provide financial support for the person until the person reaches the age of 18 years, and
While the person is under the age of 18 years --
the person is legitimated under the law of his/her residence or domicile,
the father acknowledges paternity of the person in writing under oath, or
the paternity of the person is established by adjudication of a competent court.

You said your mother "believed" they were married, and earlier in this thread you said your parents were married. Did she say where they were married? If they were legally married, it should be possible to obtain a marriage certificate from the city where they got married.

If he was not married to your mother, his post-birth activities do gain some relevance, and that custody paper you mentioned could be useful. Did it include an order for paying child support? Did he pay, and can you obtain evidence of him paying?

And if they were not married, you'll also need to tackle the legal definition of "legitimation" under UK law.

 

[mally1975]

If they were not married, that could seriously damage your case due to the added burden of proof for out-of-wedlock children.
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_5199.html


You said your mother "believed" they were married, and earlier in this thread you said your parents were married. Did she say where they were married? If they were legally married, it should be possible to obtain a marriage certificate from the city where they got married.

If he was not married to your mother, his post-birth activities do gain some relevance, and that custody paper you mentioned could be useful. Did it include an order for paying child support? Did he pay, and can you obtain evidence of him paying?

And if they were not married, you'll also need to tackle the legal definition of "legitimation" under UK law.

I have been going down the 'Child born out of Wedlock' route and gathering evidence to that effect since the details on my parents 'marriage' is vague at best.. I don't think they were married as none of my mother's friends or relatives can recall the event and stranger still, none have pictures (however, 1975 onwards photography was bit expensive to reproduce the photos) BUT there's no marriage certificate in the general area they were living in either before or after my birth.. I'm not too worried as I have Gary's life on record apart from the last 5 years.. I also know that US officials can point you in the right direction for DNA/blood tests should they request it and I have my American family on board for that.. The court paper does mention maintenance for me but from what I understand, he never follow the court decision and certainly never paid.. So I'm back to having various Affidavits from my Grandmother to assist in legitimizing myself as Gary's daughter..

 

[baikal3]

I have been going down the 'Child born out of Wedlock' route and gathering evidence to that effect since the details on my parents 'marriage' is vague at best.. I don't think they were married as none of my mother's friends or relatives can recall the event and stranger still, none have pictures (however, 1975 onwards photography was bit expensive to reproduce the photos) BUT there's no marriage certificate in the general area they were living in either before or after my birth.. I'm not too worried as I have Gary's life on record apart from the last 5 years.. I also know that US officials can point you in the right direction for DNA/blood tests should they request it and I have my American family on board for that.. The court paper does mention maintenance for me but from what I understand, he never follow the court decision and certainly never paid.. So I'm back to having various Affidavits from my Grandmother to assist in legitimizing myself as Gary's daughter..

If you are not "too worried", it means that you have not read Jackolantern's previous post carefully enough.

The rules acquiring citizenship for out-of-wedlock births are very strict and complicated:
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_5199.html

There is a good chance that you don't actually qualify. So you should be worried, in fact, you should be very worried.
In particular, requirement no. 4 (quoted in Jackolantern's post) reads:

"4. The father (unless deceased) has agreed in writing to provide financial support for the person until the person reaches the age of 18 years".

As far as I understand, the only exception to this requirement is if the father deceased before the child turned 18. According to your earlier post, your father died in 2007, when you were well over 18.
Even if you can account for every single day of your father's life and get all your relatives "on board" with your application, unless you can produce evidence satisfying the above requirement, you won't be able to prove that you have acquired U.S. citizenship through your father.

 

[mally1975]

Thank you for the advice..

If you are not "too worried", it means that you have not read Jackolantern's previous post carefully enough.

The rules acquiring citizenship for out-of-wedlock births are very strict and complicated:
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_5199.html

There is a good chance that you don't actually qualify. So you should be worried, in fact, you should be very worried.
In particular, requirement no. 4 (quoted in Jackolantern's post) reads:

"4. The father (unless deceased) has agreed in writing to provide financial support for the person until the person reaches the age of 18 years".

As far as I understand, the only exception to this requirement is if the father deceased before the child turned 18. According to your earlier post, your father died in 2007, when you were well over 18.
Even if you can account for every single day of your father's life and get all your relatives "on board" with your application, unless you can produce evidence satisfying the above requirement, you won't be able to prove that you have acquired U.S. citizenship through your father.

Hmm, I have asked an immigration lawyer if I qualify for this as I was worried about the criteria and was told that it will be hard but that I have a good case.. My father must've acknowledged my birth once in around 1979 in a letter to his parents in which he told them he had 'a daughter' (me), this prompted my US grandparents to hire a detective agency to find their son, my mother and I - I'm hoping that evidence is good enough legitimation.. I also know the US Embassy (with whom I have applied for a passport) send people for DNA if there is not quite enough evidence to prove paternity.. Other than that, if I don't qualify then it doesn't happen and I will try another way of emigrating to the US as it's still something that I would like to do - it just won't be as quick lol so no, I'm not worried.. It's just a case of 'Right, that's that avenue of enquiry closed down, so let's try another'..

 

[baikal3]

Hmm, I have asked an immigration lawyer if I qualify for this as I was worried about the criteria and was told that it will be hard but that I have a good case..

Was it a U.S. immigration lawyer? When did you consult him/her? Before you realized that your father and your mother were never married or after?

My father must've acknowledged my birth once in around 1979 in a letter to his parents in which he told them he had 'a daughter' (me), this prompted my US grandparents to hire a detective agency to find their son, my mother and I - I'm hoping that evidence is good enough legitimation..

"Legitimation" is not an informal term but a term with a specific legal meaning, determined by the family law of a particular country (in your case, the U.K. family law). You have to find out what the details of the U.K. family law are (and for that you may need to consult a U.K. immigration or family lawyer), but usually legitimation occurs either through the marriage of the child's parents (after the child's birth) or through a specific decision issued by a court legitimizing the child.

Note that in item 5 in the State Department page linked from my last post it says that, assuming you are trying to prove satisfying requirement no. 5 through legitimation, you must supply proof that legitimation occurred BEFORE you turned 18.

There are two other ways of satisfying requirement no. 5 (but both must occur BEFORE the child turns 18):

"*the father acknowledges paternity of the person in writing under oath, or

*the paternity of the person is established by adjudication of a competent court."

A private letter to a family member where your father refers to you as his daughter is not going to cut it.

 

[Jackolantern]

"Legitimation" is not an informal term but a term with a specific legal meaning, determined by the family law of a particular country (in your case, the U.K. family law). You have to find out what the details of the U.K. family law are (and for that you may need to consult a U.K. immigration or family lawyer), but usually legitimation occurs either through the marriage of the child's parents (after the child's birth) or through a specific decision issued by a court legitimizing the child.

However, some states and countries have relaxed the rules for legitimation in order to reduce the legal distinctions between in-wedlock and out-of-wedlock children. Some go as far as to say legitimation is automatic at birth, others only require some kind of minimal acknowledgment by the father.

So in addition to a US immigration lawyer, Mally1975 will also need a UK family lawyer who can research the applicable laws that were in effect from birth in 1975 to turning 18 in 1993.

 

[Jackolantern]

Hmm, I have asked an immigration lawyer if I qualify for this as I was worried about the criteria and was told that it will be hard but that I have a good case.. My father must've acknowledged my birth once in around 1979 in a letter to his parents in which he told them he had 'a daughter' (me), this prompted my US grandparents to hire a detective agency to find their son, my mother and I - I'm hoping that evidence is good enough legitimation.. I also know the US Embassy (with whom I have applied for a passport) send people for DNA if there is not quite enough evidence to prove paternity.. Other than that, if I don't qualify then it doesn't happen and I will try another way of emigrating to the US as it's still something that I would like to do - it just won't be as quick lol so no, I'm not worried.. It's just a case of 'Right, that's that avenue of enquiry closed down, so let's try another'..

Proving paternity won't be your problem. Your problem is with the additional requirements of legitimation and his agreement (or lack thereof) to provide financial support.

 

[mally1975]

Thank you Baikal3 and JackOLantern again..

There are other routes such as my US grandparents did help us financially when my father disappeared - it wasn't a great deal though, certainly not akin to maintenance but more like an apology at the situation.. I also have the UK court paper stating an amount that was to be paid by my father which he never did keep up his side of the bargain.. I have evidence, unfortunately as you both say I might not succeed.. This coupled with the fact that Gary was a liar and what I now know about him is a bit different than to when I started the thread.. I think I'm just going to see what happens with the US Embassy, I have to appear in person.. I'm hoping that with the six years that I do have where Gary looked after me as his daughter will be enough as it's not my fault he left and didn't pay for me but we will see.. I know the US takes failed maintenance issues seriously, I don't want my family in trouble lol.. Thank you both again!!.. You've both really helped me so much by just being there and pointing me in the right direction.. I'm going to leave this thread here now - what will be, will be.. Take care both of you.. Mx

 

[Jackolantern]

I also have the UK court paper stating an amount that was to be paid by my father which he never did keep up his side of the bargain..

That court paper probably would count as paternity being established by a court. Your problem is with him not paying for you.

I'm going to leave this thread here now - what will be, will be.. Take care both of you.. Mx

If you're seriously interested in moving to the US as a citizen, postpone the embassy appointment and take the time to gather more evidence (such as you living with him, if you ever lived with him), and do more legal research to build a stronger case.

If you don't qualify for citizenship, your only other options based on the information you've given are to get a work visa (not likely with your qualifications, but not impossible) and then try to convince the employer to sponsor your green card, or have your US citizen brother file for you but that would take over 10 years. Or a student visa to get a Masters or PhD, which would improve your chances for a work visa both based on the degree and the ability to do job searching and interviewing in the US. But US universities are reeeeeaaaally expensive for people on student visas.

 

[mally1975]

I also have the UK court paper stating an amount that was to be paid by my father which he never did keep up his side of the bargain..

And once again, my circumstances have changed since writing the above.. My UK based lawyer has now found in the court paper mentioned above on the second page my mother, way back in 1981, when taking my father to court had to proof with evidence that I was indeed his child to which under oath my father was judged to be the 'putative father' of me.. So in fact, I am already legitimate as this was done when I was 6.. Can't believe the turn of events of this one!!.. Just need to sort out the maintenance of me issue lol..

 

[mally1975]

That court paper probably would count as paternity being established by a court. Your problem is with him not paying for you.

If you're seriously interested in moving to the US as a citizen, postpone the embassy appointment and take the time to gather more evidence (such as you living with him, if you ever lived with him), and do more legal research to build a stronger case. If you don't qualify for citizenship, your only other options based on the information you've given are to get a work visa (not likely with your qualifications, but not impossible) and then try to convince the employer to sponsor your green card, or have your US citizen brother file for you but that would take over 10 years. Or a student visa to get a Masters or PhD, which would improve your chances for a work visa both based on the degree and the ability to do job searching and interviewing in the US. But US universities are reeeeeaaaally expensive for people on student visas.

Thank you again.. Following your advice, I have decided to postpone my US Embassy appointment for a passport - like you say just until I can get more evidence together.. Knowing the way the digging is turning out - it seems nothing is absolutely certain with me lol..

 

[Jackolantern]

Apparently the law doesn't require that your father actually paid child support ... it only says that he must have agreed in writing to provide financial support. So if proof of actual payment is not required, and those court papers you have (or any other credible papers you can find) contains some writing to the effect of him agreeing to provide support, that might work.

 

[mally1975]

Apparently the law doesn't require that your father actually paid child support ... it only says that he must have agreed in writing to provide financial support. So if proof of actual payment is not required, and those court papers you have (or any other credible papers you can find) contains some writing to the effect of him agreeing to provide support, that might work.

..

Sorry for being vague lately, finding all this out has actually upset me and shook up most of the things I thought I knew about Gary.. I can prove with the court paper that Gary was considered with evidence to be my 'putative father', which means he agreed to and was then held resposible for me either through his lawyer or directly.. Also, on this paper is a statement that acknowledges that for the first year of my life, he supported me??.. Truly random, I was living with him and my mother up until 1981 so technically I am now legitimate and can prove financial support for at least the 6 years (family matter that prompted my mother to go to court in the first place!) as appropriate from 1975 to 1981..

I have still postponed my Embassy passport application until further notice based on your advice though which I think is extremely valid point and crucial.. The more evidence the better.. Another step closer and another step to sorting out and unravelling Gary's lies - so a small success in part lol..