Off Topic: Silicon Valley IT jobs, is it true?
- Thread starter techy2468
- Start date
it depends on what you can do, but that number is around average. If I remember correctly, the median household income for IT a few years ago was $130000 to $140000 including everything(stock etc).
But I can tell you that buying house in Bay area is so tough even though you have that much income unless you have big IPO.
But I can tell you that buying house in Bay area is so tough even though you have that much income unless you have big IPO.
Last edited by a moderator:
puerthoughts
Registered Users (C)
Hi Techy2468,
It has been sometime for me on this forum. Anyway, i think it will depend on the company that your friends are working for since it is illegal to get them worked for 60hr/week without overtime pay. But if you are thinking of moving to CA, i would suggest that it is much expensive out there. Think about this, the salary of $80K/yr over there is equivalent to $60K/yr in Ohio. It is more expensive to get car insurance, health insurance and even regular grocery costs are more. So sometimes people see the big salary and just move there and find out that their savings account is not gettting any thing.
On a plus side, there are many jobs over there for IT people so you will get much better shot at staying in once location and keep changing jobs to get better deals.
It is an interesting proposal though, worth thinking hard before you make your mind.
Best Luck !
It has been sometime for me on this forum. Anyway, i think it will depend on the company that your friends are working for since it is illegal to get them worked for 60hr/week without overtime pay. But if you are thinking of moving to CA, i would suggest that it is much expensive out there. Think about this, the salary of $80K/yr over there is equivalent to $60K/yr in Ohio. It is more expensive to get car insurance, health insurance and even regular grocery costs are more. So sometimes people see the big salary and just move there and find out that their savings account is not gettting any thing.
On a plus side, there are many jobs over there for IT people so you will get much better shot at staying in once location and keep changing jobs to get better deals.
It is an interesting proposal though, worth thinking hard before you make your mind.
Best Luck !
i am not making the move for money.......(please beleive me)puerthoughts said:
the amount i am making in alabama (around 70k)....with total commute time being just 40mins .....and a ton of free time at work (you all know by this time....my 1144 posts on this forum is product of being underemployed)
i can almost take unpaid vacation any time i want.......a decent house costs just around 200k.....etc...etc....
BUT BORING JOB......
but i am looking for some action.....some real technology work.......and i realised that the best place for that is silicon valley.....with so many jobs....
but i am finding it hard to digest that the managers over there are exploiting the dot-com bust to their advantage........
and remember this....they are not asking you to work for 60 hours......they will give you enough work which can be done only in 60 hours....and expect you to complete in 40 hours.....and you cannot argue......and it seems most every one (non american people) do not complain...and put up with it....
do any of you know of such examples.....or i am just having the extreme examples....
another reason i want to go there is because of my brother having relocated recently....(he is still undergoing training in QA)
Last edited by a moderator:
techy2468 said:
In wall-street, it is very common.
I personally have gone through.. Believe me, it is better then being underemployed.
I am constantly told ( by my well wishers and friends) that the place where I am right now is best for me because of my situation with this retrogression.
I have lived in both worlds and i prefer the earlier one than this.
East coast has similar things too ..
I made the jump in '98, just around the time when the boom was on, to a firm on the Wall Street. Salary hike was 50%. Saturdays I was once "caught" in the office, working with my boss and a colleague, by my wife .. at 9 PM. Yes, Saturday. Yes, 9 PM. I lasted all of 7 months.
There are only so many things that money and "excitement" can bring -- free time and inner peace seldom among them.
Be careful what you wish for - you may just get it.
I made the jump in '98, just around the time when the boom was on, to a firm on the Wall Street. Salary hike was 50%. Saturdays I was once "caught" in the office, working with my boss and a colleague, by my wife .. at 9 PM. Yes, Saturday. Yes, 9 PM. I lasted all of 7 months.
There are only so many things that money and "excitement" can bring -- free time and inner peace seldom among them.
Be careful what you wish for - you may just get it.
i would like hear more opinions of Silicon Valley/Bay area.....and EAST Coast
its becoming so hard to believe that IT workers are supposed to be in demand......but still we are putting up with 60hrs/week........
i know people who get up 5.30am in the morning.....travel to new york city from NJ to reach office by 9am...work only 8-9 hours...come back home by 8pm......and go to bed by 11pm......
where do we fit the 10-11 hr/day shedule in this??
i would like to hear more opinons.....i hope we just dont end up hearing the extreme examples......
its becoming so hard to believe that IT workers are supposed to be in demand......but still we are putting up with 60hrs/week........
i know people who get up 5.30am in the morning.....travel to new york city from NJ to reach office by 9am...work only 8-9 hours...come back home by 8pm......and go to bed by 11pm......
where do we fit the 10-11 hr/day shedule in this??
i would like to hear more opinons.....i hope we just dont end up hearing the extreme examples......
What kind of person are you?
Techy, it all boils down to a simple question: are you an ambitious, aggressive and motivated person who will do what it takes to get the next promotion before anyone else in the team or would you prefer to go easy and let the promotion catch up with you while you enjoy your time.
And there are shades in between.
I'm one of those who live in NJ, get out of the home at 5.30 am to be at work in NY by 7.00 am and gets home at 7.00 pm and sleep by 10.00 pm.
I'd rather do something else.
I'm looking for a job that will ease all of this hectic schedule and give me a more peaceful life. In at work by 8 am and out by 5 pm with 30 min or less commute is my ideal job.
I don't mind getting a promotion/raise in 5 yrs instead of 3 if it means that I can get home earlier, spend time with my family, go watch a movie or play some sport and have some personal space.
I was underworked in my last project and got bored and left.
Now I'm overworked and I don't like it either.
It's not rocket science. A little contemplation should tell you what will fit you.
Most importantly, there is no one-size-fits-all policy here. Each person has to decide for himself what will give him a good work-life balance and go ahead with it.
Bay area is ridiculously expensive. So a $130k salary there is probably equivalent to an $80k salary in Alabama (I didn't know people lived in Alabama).
Unless it's a two income family with both making 100K+ salaries, I wouldn't recommend a move to the bay area, where a reasonably condo costs about a half a million and a single family home costs upwards of a million.
Or unless you're a bachelor who's splitting the rent and utilities four ways!
Make sure that you compare apples to apples when you consider two salaries in two different geographical areas. Just use a salary calculator available online.
Usually all factors considered (insurance, rent, mortgage, commute, cost of living etc), salaries across the US will flatten out to pretty much the same, give or take a little, with the bay area and Wall Street paying better than anyone else.
But these high salaries are not free lunches. You really have to work very hard. That's the only reason bay area and wall st pay such high salaries. I work in one of the wall st firms and I see that the people who work here become money making machines. They have terrific salaries, come in by 7.30 and stay till 8.00 and are on call pretty much all thru the week and sometimes on the weekends. For such people, professional life comes before personal life.
Looks like personal life and salary are inversely proportional!
Reminds of me a Calvin quote "Looks like there is an inverse relationship between how good a thing is for you and how much fun there is in it.".
nj_skm
Techy, it all boils down to a simple question: are you an ambitious, aggressive and motivated person who will do what it takes to get the next promotion before anyone else in the team or would you prefer to go easy and let the promotion catch up with you while you enjoy your time.
And there are shades in between.
I'm one of those who live in NJ, get out of the home at 5.30 am to be at work in NY by 7.00 am and gets home at 7.00 pm and sleep by 10.00 pm.
I'd rather do something else.
I'm looking for a job that will ease all of this hectic schedule and give me a more peaceful life. In at work by 8 am and out by 5 pm with 30 min or less commute is my ideal job.
I don't mind getting a promotion/raise in 5 yrs instead of 3 if it means that I can get home earlier, spend time with my family, go watch a movie or play some sport and have some personal space.
I was underworked in my last project and got bored and left.
Now I'm overworked and I don't like it either.
It's not rocket science. A little contemplation should tell you what will fit you.
Most importantly, there is no one-size-fits-all policy here. Each person has to decide for himself what will give him a good work-life balance and go ahead with it.
Bay area is ridiculously expensive. So a $130k salary there is probably equivalent to an $80k salary in Alabama (I didn't know people lived in Alabama).
Unless it's a two income family with both making 100K+ salaries, I wouldn't recommend a move to the bay area, where a reasonably condo costs about a half a million and a single family home costs upwards of a million.
Or unless you're a bachelor who's splitting the rent and utilities four ways!
Make sure that you compare apples to apples when you consider two salaries in two different geographical areas. Just use a salary calculator available online.
Usually all factors considered (insurance, rent, mortgage, commute, cost of living etc), salaries across the US will flatten out to pretty much the same, give or take a little, with the bay area and Wall Street paying better than anyone else.
But these high salaries are not free lunches. You really have to work very hard. That's the only reason bay area and wall st pay such high salaries. I work in one of the wall st firms and I see that the people who work here become money making machines. They have terrific salaries, come in by 7.30 and stay till 8.00 and are on call pretty much all thru the week and sometimes on the weekends. For such people, professional life comes before personal life.
Looks like personal life and salary are inversely proportional!
Reminds of me a Calvin quote "Looks like there is an inverse relationship between how good a thing is for you and how much fun there is in it.".
nj_skm
my 2 cents
well put nj,
its not worth living here...apart from the weather everthing sucks. I have been living in bay area for the past 2 years and..
Pros
1) Good weather.
2) So many desi restaurants around.
Cons
1) Cost of living is too much (120K here is equivalent to 80K in Kansas)
2) House prices are skyrocketing so is the mortgage. And even though you pay so much for it u get a little townhouse, where as with the same price u can own a mansion elsewhere.
3) Property taxes are based on the prices so they too are way up. To give u an example, the property tax u pay here per month is equivalent of rent in other states.
4) Too much commute to main cities, I commute 2.5 hrs everyday, which sucks; its just like for me in Delhi. So less time with family and friends.
5) (Some ppl dont consider it a Con but I do)Too many desis, they just work overtime or just sit idel in the office to show off they work. Their point it why to go home when nobody is waiting for them at home...just surf the net in office rather than at home...specially bachelors. Hence this comes to the same point that ppl work more here ie 55-60hrs/week.
6) Apart from some public transport, traffic sucks. Again it like in Delhi (with no honking though).
Me and my wife wait for my GC everyday, as we will move out of Bay area the day it comes.
-p
well put nj,
its not worth living here...apart from the weather everthing sucks. I have been living in bay area for the past 2 years and..
Pros
1) Good weather.
2) So many desi restaurants around.
Cons
1) Cost of living is too much (120K here is equivalent to 80K in Kansas)
2) House prices are skyrocketing so is the mortgage. And even though you pay so much for it u get a little townhouse, where as with the same price u can own a mansion elsewhere.
3) Property taxes are based on the prices so they too are way up. To give u an example, the property tax u pay here per month is equivalent of rent in other states.
4) Too much commute to main cities, I commute 2.5 hrs everyday, which sucks; its just like for me in Delhi. So less time with family and friends.
5) (Some ppl dont consider it a Con but I do)Too many desis, they just work overtime or just sit idel in the office to show off they work. Their point it why to go home when nobody is waiting for them at home...just surf the net in office rather than at home...specially bachelors. Hence this comes to the same point that ppl work more here ie 55-60hrs/week.
6) Apart from some public transport, traffic sucks. Again it like in Delhi (with no honking though).
Me and my wife wait for my GC everyday, as we will move out of Bay area the day it comes.
-p
Last edited by a moderator:
thanks a lot ....NJ_SKM and PA_arora...
for a while i thot....since east coast and bay area people are so busy no one will give a feed back...
to tell u the fact i am in alabama since last 5 years.....and i am dead bored......
personal life rocks.....but professional satisfaction sucks big time.....i recently got repriminded by my boss for being too aggressive in seeking work....which makes southerners feel uncomfortable...(exact words of his)
my work load is just 2 hours every day.......but they have this position because we need to support applications...
but i leave home at 8am....back by 5.30pm..........i play Racquetball 3 times a week......and soccer once in the weekend....
never had to work on weekend....or after 6pm
and things have started becoming interesting here.....i see many job postings.....
but i want some good work.....some challenging stuff......
if i find it in birmingham, that will be great.........nothing like it.......
but if i have to go to bay area.....i will go for it.....because long term i do not have any plan to buy a house over there.......because they are ridiculous....(people are working like slaves to pay interest on those $800k loans.....at 6% its $4800/month.......can you imagine what kind of fools those guys are........and the reason they are paying this is : they think house will appreciate 20-30% every year.....idiots..)
on another note....i fully agree that we desis dont have a life.....we are making life hell for other IT professionals by working 60hrs/wk........
i am more interested in Atlanta right now.....i hope that market is not saturated by immigrants.....(we immigrants are such big suckers .....we create conditions for slavery......only if we humans beleived in little bit of dignity....)
for a while i thot....since east coast and bay area people are so busy no one will give a feed back...
to tell u the fact i am in alabama since last 5 years.....and i am dead bored......
personal life rocks.....but professional satisfaction sucks big time.....i recently got repriminded by my boss for being too aggressive in seeking work....which makes southerners feel uncomfortable...(exact words of his)
my work load is just 2 hours every day.......but they have this position because we need to support applications...
but i leave home at 8am....back by 5.30pm..........i play Racquetball 3 times a week......and soccer once in the weekend....
never had to work on weekend....or after 6pm
and things have started becoming interesting here.....i see many job postings.....
but i want some good work.....some challenging stuff......
if i find it in birmingham, that will be great.........nothing like it.......
but if i have to go to bay area.....i will go for it.....because long term i do not have any plan to buy a house over there.......because they are ridiculous....(people are working like slaves to pay interest on those $800k loans.....at 6% its $4800/month.......can you imagine what kind of fools those guys are........and the reason they are paying this is : they think house will appreciate 20-30% every year.....idiots..)
on another note....i fully agree that we desis dont have a life.....we are making life hell for other IT professionals by working 60hrs/wk........
i am more interested in Atlanta right now.....i hope that market is not saturated by immigrants.....(we immigrants are such big suckers .....we create conditions for slavery......only if we humans beleived in little bit of dignity....)
Chicago Desi
Registered Users (C)
techy2468 said:
Dude, don't mess with your 'success'.
Seriously, if you have a nice well paying job and you want some work action then you could try to get part time work.
Last edited by a moderator:
Such is life!
We're always running after something we don't have and imagine that we want it.
Once we get it, our wants change and we start running after something else and so on.
It looks like Techy has a pretty cushy job and a very good personal life. What I would give to be able to have as much free time as he does!
But I can also understand how boring it is to have an unfulfilling job, which is what we do most of our waking hours.
Techy, maybe you can challenge yourself and invent projects to make life better for your and others in your team in an non intrusive way.
Then they'll all be happy with the projects you're doing for them and you'll also be happy with the work you're doing.
Just an idea.
But I know you'll move to the bay area for sure and then look back at the comfortable and stress free life you used to have in Alabama.
Such is life!
We're always running after something we don't have and imagine that we want it.
Once we get it, our wants change and we start running after something else and so on.
It looks like Techy has a pretty cushy job and a very good personal life. What I would give to be able to have as much free time as he does!
But I can also understand how boring it is to have an unfulfilling job, which is what we do most of our waking hours.
Techy, maybe you can challenge yourself and invent projects to make life better for your and others in your team in an non intrusive way.
Then they'll all be happy with the projects you're doing for them and you'll also be happy with the work you're doing.
Just an idea.
But I know you'll move to the bay area for sure and then look back at the comfortable and stress free life you used to have in Alabama.
Such is life!
grow up dude !!
hey techy,
Everyone has their own right way to live their life. U should be a fool and utterly ignorant to say that people who buy homes in bay area are idiots..... they like the way of life there and for them it is an investment and will definitely gives dividends.
For you to say for the price to buy a home in bay area,you can buy a mansion somewhere else. A "Honda/Toyota" is NOT equivalent to a "Benz/BMW".
Wake up dude - looks like you are in yr own naive world, burying the head in the sand and pretend to know everything and try to degrade others by saying they are idiots..... the truth is you can't afford to buy a home and thats it.
Don't throw some junk and belittle yrself and look pathetic. Stop calling others names without being provoked.
Note: I'm DON'T live in the bay area.
JMJ
hey techy,
Everyone has their own right way to live their life. U should be a fool and utterly ignorant to say that people who buy homes in bay area are idiots..... they like the way of life there and for them it is an investment and will definitely gives dividends.
For you to say for the price to buy a home in bay area,you can buy a mansion somewhere else. A "Honda/Toyota" is NOT equivalent to a "Benz/BMW".
Wake up dude - looks like you are in yr own naive world, burying the head in the sand and pretend to know everything and try to degrade others by saying they are idiots..... the truth is you can't afford to buy a home and thats it.
Don't throw some junk and belittle yrself and look pathetic. Stop calling others names without being provoked.
Note: I'm DON'T live in the bay area.
JMJ
the market is what it is!
The market is what it is. It is far smarter vehicle than those of you ranting give it credit for. To date it is the most efficient vehicle over time that is good at predicting the intrinsic value going forward. This is not to say that there will not be temporary blips back and forth, however speaking as if you are smarter than the market or that everyone else there is a bunch of idiots is wrong.
Many factors go into real estate prices. Not the least of which is the opportunities there, culture there, restaurants, schools, crime and the prestige of living there.
The fact is SF, LA, NY etc have ALWAYS been way ahead of the rest of the country in terms of residential real estate. This is nothing new. Yet the demand side keeps coming, so clearly collectively more people feel it is worth it than not. Whether that trend will continue, the market can take care of that. Who are we to criticize them. We are free to choose for ourselves, if we prioritize other things.
Likewise belittling other immigrants in the tech arena does not make any of you guys look good. You all are supposed to be here on the basis of your great and relatively scarce skills, start behaving as such, unless you feel you are fairly ordinary anyway, in which case you ought not to complain about not being able to get a green card either. You can't have it both ways.
For the record, I neither live in the bay area nor am I in the IT arena.
The market is what it is. It is far smarter vehicle than those of you ranting give it credit for. To date it is the most efficient vehicle over time that is good at predicting the intrinsic value going forward. This is not to say that there will not be temporary blips back and forth, however speaking as if you are smarter than the market or that everyone else there is a bunch of idiots is wrong.
Many factors go into real estate prices. Not the least of which is the opportunities there, culture there, restaurants, schools, crime and the prestige of living there.
The fact is SF, LA, NY etc have ALWAYS been way ahead of the rest of the country in terms of residential real estate. This is nothing new. Yet the demand side keeps coming, so clearly collectively more people feel it is worth it than not. Whether that trend will continue, the market can take care of that. Who are we to criticize them. We are free to choose for ourselves, if we prioritize other things.
Likewise belittling other immigrants in the tech arena does not make any of you guys look good. You all are supposed to be here on the basis of your great and relatively scarce skills, start behaving as such, unless you feel you are fairly ordinary anyway, in which case you ought not to complain about not being able to get a green card either. You can't have it both ways.
For the record, I neither live in the bay area nor am I in the IT arena.
JMJ....i am amazed that you got offended when I tried to belittle people who make life difficult for everyone...
i do know that honda/toyota is different than "Benz/BMW"......except that honda toyota give you same quality ride for more years.....maybe not a cushy comfort one.....but a great one......and of course "Benz/BMW" are great vehicles except that people also treat them as a status symbol...
BTW can you state the difference between the house built in bay area vs those in Atlanta or any other major city....which almost has the same quality jobs....
why did i call them idiots.....because not that they have that much money........because most of them i know.....have loans of around 800k.....paying interest of around $5k
and on top of that a huge property tax...........guess what......they spend almost 70% of their income in their house.........and poor things they only use it to sleep at night ....because they are busy working to make sure that they wont loose their jobs.......because if that happens....they will have a tough time paying this mortgage of their McMansion....
just as i said....they do not do this math.....because they do another math.....which says that they will reap appreciation of 20-30% year after year.....
just wait for 2-3 years....i will be surprised if they dont see 10-15% depreciation....
and who told you i cannot aford such house........if me and my wife bring home around 180k........guess what.....we can also choose to buy a mcMansion.....and chain ourself to the job....to feed the monster...
i do know that honda/toyota is different than "Benz/BMW"......except that honda toyota give you same quality ride for more years.....maybe not a cushy comfort one.....but a great one......and of course "Benz/BMW" are great vehicles except that people also treat them as a status symbol...
BTW can you state the difference between the house built in bay area vs those in Atlanta or any other major city....which almost has the same quality jobs....
why did i call them idiots.....because not that they have that much money........because most of them i know.....have loans of around 800k.....paying interest of around $5k
and on top of that a huge property tax...........guess what......they spend almost 70% of their income in their house.........and poor things they only use it to sleep at night ....because they are busy working to make sure that they wont loose their jobs.......because if that happens....they will have a tough time paying this mortgage of their McMansion....
just as i said....they do not do this math.....because they do another math.....which says that they will reap appreciation of 20-30% year after year.....
just wait for 2-3 years....i will be surprised if they dont see 10-15% depreciation....
and who told you i cannot aford such house........if me and my wife bring home around 180k........guess what.....we can also choose to buy a mcMansion.....and chain ourself to the job....to feed the monster...
so you are saying that just because some place is great........you should spend 70-80% of your income for housing alone??alterego2 said:The market is what it is. It is far smarter vehicle than those of you ranting give it credit for. To date it is the most efficient vehicle over time that is good at predicting the intrinsic value going forward. This is not to say that there will not be temporary blips back and forth, however speaking as if you are smarter than the market or that everyone else there is a bunch of idiots is wrong.
Many factors go into real estate prices. Not the least of which is the opportunities there, culture there, restaurants, schools, crime and the prestige of living there.
The fact is SF, LA, NY etc have ALWAYS been way ahead of the rest of the country in terms of residential real estate. This is nothing new. Yet the demand side keeps coming, so clearly collectively more people feel it is worth it than not. Whether that trend will continue, the market can take care of that. Who are we to criticize them. We are free to choose for ourselves, if we prioritize other things.
Likewise belittling other immigrants in the tech arena does not make any of you guys look good. You all are supposed to be here on the basis of your great and relatively scarce skills, start behaving as such, unless you feel you are fairly ordinary anyway, in which case you ought not to complain about not being able to get a green card either. You can't have it both ways.
For the record, I neither live in the bay area nor am I in the IT arena.
i hope those people also know that there are other great places in USA where they can find similar jobs......and yes they may be able to retire in 15 years from the money they will save on their mortgage...
the only reason for property value to go beyond 6 times income in any location is GREED......and HERD mentality........every one starts investing every penny they have on real estate (like they did on nasdaq 6 years back)......they may be in for a rude awakening in the next few years....
anyways.....i am sorry for being rude.....i just get disappointed with humans making things difficult for all with irrational behavior...(70% of income for housing.....60 hrs/week at work....)
hey techy,
cool down dude. See I have no problem in yr perception that people should not spend large part of their income on mortgage interest,but to call them "idiots" is over the line. If you don't agree with something,just voice yr opinion in a decent manner. I also don't think,that these people are the ones who make life difficult for everyone.
There is very little I could say when in yr infinite wisdom U say "that the quality of the jobs done on houses in bay area and Atlanta" are the factors that people consider when buying houses in bay area. there are several other economical considerations that people take into account when they buy houses in bay area(or any place for that matter)
Hey,I don't recommend or condone people working more hours,but most of them are forced to work that way -either because of peer pressure or have to complete the job given to them.
Quit calling people by names because they don't agree with yr point of view. Be polite and don't mouth off.
JMJ
cool down dude. See I have no problem in yr perception that people should not spend large part of their income on mortgage interest,but to call them "idiots" is over the line. If you don't agree with something,just voice yr opinion in a decent manner. I also don't think,that these people are the ones who make life difficult for everyone.
There is very little I could say when in yr infinite wisdom U say "that the quality of the jobs done on houses in bay area and Atlanta" are the factors that people consider when buying houses in bay area. there are several other economical considerations that people take into account when they buy houses in bay area(or any place for that matter)
Hey,I don't recommend or condone people working more hours,but most of them are forced to work that way -either because of peer pressure or have to complete the job given to them.
Quit calling people by names because they don't agree with yr point of view. Be polite and don't mouth off.
JMJ
sorry man....today i do not even have the two hours worth.....nyc8300 said:techy2468,
Please don't start a conversation on this forum just because u r ...bama boy working 2 hrs a day.....
anyways JMJ......i hope u can see what i am able to see....that how we make our life difficult........that how we have become machines making some one rich....while we toil all our working age......
on another note....i should thank god....that i have seen such diverse situations in life....that i can realize that making $200k.....being the boss of 20 people....being the big decision maker.......becomes pointless......when you do nothing but work......you dont have time for your family........everything you earn goes for the bills......which you are paying because you have to live........
and before you know...you are 55 and then maybe you realize that you wasted your life....
( I have great respect for a man.....who used to work 16 hours.......billing at the rate of $50/hour......and saving all that ...luckily he is in Atlanta....and did not have a McMansion to take care......so he was able to take two months off for a vacation....)
if i was in bay area....i would rent happily........i think that will save me around $2k per month......enough that one can retire in a nice place.......after 15-20 years.....
Last edited by a moderator: