N-400 denial: do you acknowledge or not?

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valiko

Registered Users (C)
Good day to all those reading.
I have searched this forum for a long time before deciding to post my own topic, but it seems that my position is somewhat unique so far on this forum.
The issue can be summarized as follows: I get a decline of naturalization letter but a week later I go to the local Seattle INS office with an INFOPASS and the officer tells me that “my case is still being reviewed and you have to wait for the decision” (I did not tell the officer I got a letter of decline).
The history:
I came to NYC in June 2000 as a fiance of a US citizen and immediately applied for the Green Card. I got my GC in January of 2002 in Seattle and applied for citizenship after another 3 years. I had my naturalization interview in September of 2006 in Seattle. The officer asked me about some issues I knew would arise:
1)I was out of the country once for more than 7 months out of medical necessity (all documented)
2)I declined taking up arms for religious reasons (documented), although I did not refuse to take part in non-combatant services.
I explained it all but didn't have documents at that interview with me, so I was asked to mail it all to the Seattle INS within a calendar moth, which I did (delivery confirmation and all). After a 90 day (January) period I call in and I get the usual – wait another 90 days. I call in in February of 2007 and I get the same answer. The INS confirmed this call by a letter. Then in March I use an INFOPASS appointment to get case status – more of the same: your case is being reviewed, wait another 90 days. In April 2007 I wrote to my senator and she got back to me at the end of the same month with a reply that her channels gave her the answer that I should wait another 90 days. Then in June of 2007 I call in for an update of the case and the officer tells me that the case is still being reviewed. I tell the lady that it is outside the processing time. At that moment the lady tells me she'll transfer the call. I get to speak to another officer, who tells me that he's looking at what's in the “computer” and that my case looks all fine and “they should be scheduling you for an Oath Ceremony (!), all you need to do is make a request for an Oath Ceremony in writing.” Naturally, I get all excited, and compose that letter and mail it the same day. In the end of June 2007 I get a letter from the Seattle INS that “you requested a status of your case” and the case is still being reviewed, please wait another 4-6 months. To this I write back that I did not request the status, but a scheduling of an Oath Ceremony, as I was told my case is all fine. I then go to USCIS.gov to check the case status online, and (as before) it told me that either the case number entered is incorrect or not in the system – this time I print this out.
At the end of July I get a letter of denial of naturalization for three reasons:
1)failure to adhere to the principles of US Constitution and Democracy (!!!)
2)not sending in the additional documents, requested at the naturalization interview
3)being out of USA for > 6 months without explanation
My jaw literally dropped at this, because the letter ignored all the things I have said at the interview, the additional documents I sent it timely manner, and the statements of other INS officers, cited above.
Now, I deal a little with the courts, so I know that if you don't serve a defendant with a notice properly, you effectively did not serve the notice. So, I immediately go online to check the case status and lo and behold: the case number entered is either incorrect or not in the system -- I print that out. I go to INFOPASS and schedule an appointment, which I just had yesterday. I come, pretending I never got any letters of denial (after all it is possible that it can get lost in the mail, eaten by a dog, etc. before I even saw it) and I ask about my naturalization case status, and I was told yesterday, more than a week after the letter of denial date, that the case is still being reviewed. This is in the same building that the letter of denial was also sent from more than a week ago.
So, I have a dilemma: do I
1)ignore the letter of denial and just go on as if nothing happened (as the INS will now have a hard time proving they got the letter to me) and file a lawsuit in the local Federal Court against the INS on the basis of INA sec. 336(b), 8 USC parr. 1447(b) violation;
OR
2)appeal for a hearing on the decision (form N-336) and, thus, acknowledge the denial of my US Citizenship (!) plus waste another $265, and probably end up in the same local Federal Court.
I would greatly appreciate any thoughts on this, especially on this fine matter of “serving the notice”, so to speak – weather a Federal Judge would throw out the case on the basis of INS having simply to say that they have sent me a letter, and it's the plaintiff's problem that he didn't get it, even though quite some time after the descision's date INS's own employees stated that there is no decision.
My thanks and gratitude for your patience and any input in advance.
 
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I doubt that USCIS sending you a denial letter would be seen as equivalent to being served with court papers. If you pretend you never received the letter, you are effectively lying, which is never a good thing where USCIS is concerned.

Personally I think you have two viable options:-
1. File an appeal and convince the judge. This could be both costly and time consuming.

2. Refile after an appropriate period of time has elapsed since the 7 month absence. Next time, make sure you go to the interview with proof of why you cannot bear arms to defend the constitution - you'll need something a little more concrete that simply saying its against your beliefs.

Quite possibly option #2 could be as soon as 2yrs+1day from the date you returned from your 7 month trip.
 
boatbod said:
I doubt that USCIS sending you a denial letter would be seen as equivalent to being served with court papers. If you pretend you never received the letter, you are effectively lying, which is never a good thing where USCIS is concerned.

Personally I think you have two viable options:-
1. File an appeal and convince the judge. This could be both costly and time consuming.

2. Refile after an appropriate period of time has elapsed since the 7 month absence. Next time, make sure you go to the interview with proof of why you cannot bear arms to defend the constitution - you'll need something a little more concrete that simply saying its against your beliefs.

Quite possibly option #2 could be as soon as 2yrs+1day from the date you returned from your 7 month trip.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your input.
The thing is, though, documented evidence has been submitted in a timely manner to the INS -- everything has been explained, AND the INS accepted it! -- what am I to conclude now, that they in effect are lying?! I'm damn well near that.
Anyhow, the issue at stake is really this: if the INS, as a governmental agency effectively issues two contradictory decisions, can that be taken advantage of, and does anyone know any particular statute governing this? (I mean, suppose I keep pushing, and asking: "where's my Oath Invitation? where's my Oath invitation? etc." and the INS sends me an Oath Ceremony Invitation now, after the denial of naturalization (!!!). Highly unlikely, right? But the fact of the inability to see the denial at an INFOPASS appointment more than a week after the date of denial tells me that there is that chance.
I am also pushing this hard because of the accusation by INS of "not supporting the US Constitution" -- after such a statement I can be not only denied naturalization now, but not even able to renew the Green Card, and all the other pleasant thing that may also follow. So I have to nail the INS, one way or another.

Besides, I won't be lying by not acknowleging the denial, I will be conducting an independent investigation. :)
 
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I'm not trying to defend USCIS, but it seems to me you were only given ONE official outcome. Everything you were verbally told during the various infopass appointments was just "best guess" based on the case status as they saw it on the computer screen.

Let me offer a scenario:-
- your case status, as shown in the USCIS computer was probably "pending approval" (or words to that effect). When the Infopass person saw it, they probably figured "ah, that means they should be done soon, and will get an oath letter".

Sounds to me like you should appeal the decision and have your time in front of a judge. I suggest however, that you focus on the facts of the case to refute the claims that your broke residence and are not attached to the constitution. Trying to punish USCIS for giving erroneous Infopass information isn't likely to go very far.
 
This situation reminds me of everything else we deal in day to day life. Haven't you ever want to get something done and you end up dealing with customer service personals where they have no idea what they're talking about and you have to explain the whole situation to them. You call back at another time to the same customer service center, yet to another customer service representative and you have to tell the whole story once again?!!

Often, we get a different suggestion or a different answer everytime we call in to customer service!

Valiko, you received a hard evident decision via a letter from the USCIS, guess what, you're denied, not maybe or no, maybe USCIS don't know! The likelihood of things, it simply will takes weeks (just like everything else with USCIS) for the USCIS computer systems to update and get in sync.

To me, when I read your situation, I felt that you've contacted USCIS every month was a bit excessive. I know you were anxious to find out your application status, but aren't we all? By you contacting the USCIS in the manner that you did, you did not allow the computer system update and therefore you ended up with the same answer everytime you called or visited (INFOPASS). Imagine all the time you could've saved in your life doing other productive things...

My suggestion for you at this time is either appeal or reapply including ALL documents required. If you appeal, more time and $$ will go down the drain. I would recommend you to reapply and do everything correctly this time WITHOUT calling or schedule an INFOPASS appointment monthly.
 
Well,

I don't know what to recommend you, but I can tell that USCIS has been inconsistent in the past. I mean sometimes people are already naturalized and they get a letter for interview, or for something else. Don't take my example literally because I don't remember the exact circumstances. My point is that sometimes you can get conflicting notices, you might get an oath letter in a few days. Perhaps you could go to Infopass with the letter and say you're very concerned. Explain that you sent the documents they asked for, perhaps bring the documents with you, demand that you need to talk to the officer in charge of your case, and perhaps you'll be able to move this without having to go to appeal. It seems you did the right thing and either they screwed with the documents you sent or the documents got lost in the mail. Of course, try to stay on message, you sent the documents timely.

My 2 cents.
 
Thank you all for your opinions regardless of value -- each case is individual and only time will prove what's been worth and what's not.
On the story: I have called the INS national customer center yesterday and they confirmed the denial of naturalization -- so much the easier, no ambiguity of my actions now. Maybe I'll try another INFOPASS and request to talk to IO to try to avoid the appeal. However more likely than not, I will have to appeal -- at least that will give me more time -- INS will be taking another 4-6 months before scheduling a trial. Waiting and then re-applying is out of the question because the accusation of not supporting the Constitution will not go away and at the next re-application I will be forced to prove my adherence to the values of the Constitution, and I have no idea how would I do that! By enlisting in the army and getting to Iraq?! I'm a 32 year-old woman breastfeeding a baby! Just try to picture me with a baby in my left arm and an AK-47 in the right! :) That'll be the day! And besides this, the homeland security will be sure to put me on some terrorist list or some crap like that. No way I'm just passively waiting to re-apply -- that'll mean I acquiesced with INS accusations. I'm fighting this to the winning end!!!
 
valiko said:
Waiting and then re-applying is out of the question because the accusation of not supporting the Constitution will not go away and at the next re-application I will be forced to prove my adherence to the values of the Constitution, and I have no idea how would I do that! By enlisting in the army and getting to Iraq?! I'm a 32 year-old woman breastfeeding a baby! Just try to picture me with a baby in my left arm and an AK-47 in the right! :)
Click to expand...

Be careful with your choice of weapon ;) It should have been with an M16 on your right arm, AK-47 is what the enemy uses :( except for special forces which can use what they want, because they are special, and because sometimes they have to blend with the locals which probably carry AK-47.

Yes, I think you should appeal, and hopefully everything will come out alright.
 
For all it is worth, I think it may be time for you to consult a competent immigration attorney to truly get an idea of the best (most effective) course of action to get you your desired results.

If this not too personal a question, isn't your husband who is a US Citizen able to guide/help you in this matter?

Best of Luck!!
 
My 2 cents -

Everybody in the theard are great to offer you help valiko.

I like "pathenry" advice the best.
 
pathenry said:
For all it is worth, I think it may be time for you to consult a competent immigration attorney to truly get an idea of the best (most effective) course of action to get you your desired results.

If this not too personal a question, isn't your husband who is a US Citizen able to guide/help you in this matter?

Best of Luck!!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice.
I have consulted 4 (four) immigration attorneys. All of them gave me 4 (four) different opinions (!!!) and only one has had real INS-suing experience (over 50 cases - all won).
This court-experienced attorney has told me to appeal on my own, as it really doesn't matter -- the case will go on before the same department IOs that interviewed me in the first place, so if the case is denied then, then it'll be a matter of taking the case to the Fed. Court and it'll be out of INS's jurisdiction -- easier to get approved. You can follow the steps in the PUBLICUS's thread on suing the INS.
Regarding the lawyer advice in general -- these are bad times termed "democracy" in this country -- there is no democracy, and there is a lot of tyranny by those in power (such as Homeland Security and INS). Laws are being changed rapidly, laws are ambiguous (lots of "may" and "maybe"'s in the wording of the statutes -- effectively, as someone's put it, if there's ambiguity in the law, then there is no law. All of the problem's aren't lawyer's problems, they're mine -- as Publicus has said, it is important to take the responsibility and matters into your own hands, attorney can only help, not solve them.
P.S. chill on the chauvinism factor -- the fact that I am a lady has nothing to do with my abilities to interpret laws, or to reason logically and succinctly.
 
Hi Valiko,

It seems you're on top of your game and I am sure you'll be able to drive this situation to success. Even if the documents you sent were lost you'll have a chance to show them again (I guess, I am not familiar with the appeal process), and to show your attachment to the constitution. I assume also that you believe in democracy, not on theocracy, or any other totalitarian form of government.

Good luck.
 
Calm down Valiko, my intent was not to be chauvinistic, I was only suggesting that your husband being a US Citizen may have some contacts and/or know some ways of going about this issue. Good Luck for whichever path you select!!!
 
pathenry said:
Calm down Valiko, my intent was not to be chauvinistic, I was only suggesting that your husband being a US Citizen may have some contacts and/or know some ways of going about this issue. Good Luck for whichever path you select!!!
Click to expand...
Born US citizens are the least knowledgeable about the citizenship process because they never experienced it. Do you know anything about applying for citizenship in the country where you were born?
 
While that may be true I would think a spouse would be more interested in helping rather than strange men posting on forums ?
 
Follow up

... So , on with the progress.
I am in the final stages of getting the brief written (myself) and to file the appeal (N-336) along with the $265 (frickin' blood-suckers). There are five (5) reasons which INS gave to deny my naturalization:
1) lack of moral character and disposition toward good order and happiness in the US; lack of attachment to US Constitution;
2) unable to take the Oath of Allegiance (Webster's defines "unable" as "not having the mental capabilities") :D
3) lack of continuous residence (one trip >250 days)
4) lack of continuous residence (I'm not repeating myself, it's what INS has actually listed twice = they must have been very upset about it :D )
5) not sending in the requested documents (in time , or otherwise -- whatever)

Thus, I have been completely slandered, put down, etc, etc, (for those of you with a wild imagination). As to myself: I will be not I if I don't take these blood-suckers to the Federal Court after this, 'cause I'm hoping-MAD! I'll get every penny I've spent on them and attorneys back by making them admit their wrong and INTENTIONAL wrong doing.

Anyway, as for the unemotional assessment, I will post my brief when I'm done for your benefit.

Please, ladies and gentleman, don't be paranoid, afraid, or otherwise of the INS -- otherwise what good are you as the US Citizens if you cannot defend the US Constitutional rights of yourself if you know that you are in the right!
 
You can't get the oath if you went. They have the up to date list of who is getting an oath that day. You will not be on it. They also may try and follow up why you are not and then that would lead to them knowing about the denial and how you were trying to commit immigration fraud which is a deportable offence...
 
Valiko,
You are doing the right thing by suing since you feel so strongly. Imo you were denied for the long absence and not because of the refusal to bear arms. That refusal is a valid request and there are instructions that apply to this issue, so it is hardly anything new for them. In fact you are being honest about your intentions.
If anything at all you are showing how American you are by suing, after all this is one of the most litigious countries !!
 
The USCIS is incompetent and slow because most if the people working there are undereducated, underpaid people who have no motivation doing a good job. They are watching the clock all day to see when they can get out.
Don't forget these are the people who issued student visas for the muslim terrorists well after they had flown planes into our buildings.

Have you ever considered that whatever you sent them was lost? Or maybe there was a breakdown in communication between two people. Did you ask the lwayers if they believed you should have been ok with your medical documentation for your >7mo leave and not bearing arms?

I don't see why you can't go with ignoring the letter (althoguh I know it won't be popular advice here). The bigger problem is that you have not been getting anywhere that way either. If you keep asking them someone will realize that they sent you the letter and just resend it because it is much easier.
Maybe you should write a letter with all your documentation attached and send it again saying that you had sent it before but still no approval.

Lawsuits are tricky because until then the USCIS is "there to help you" - if you sue them they will become your adversaries. If I were you I would try to exhaust my other options before filing a lawsuit.
 
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