Is it me or does there seem to be a high number of folks starting to use this board who are entering into marriages to USC for papers? I have seen three in the past week. Those of us that freak out the with the amount of paperwork required to "prove" our real marriages should take offense to these postings.....fraud = more paperwork for the rest of us! Just my two cents...feel free to disagree....but don't justify breaking the law.
Marriage Fraud
- Thread starter im2003
- Start date
It does make it harder for people that are really married and filing for their spouse. Its to a point now that you can be really in love and married and because of other "business" marriages out there, they deny you for some simple thing you might have mixed up or forgotten at your interview. It's very sad what the world is coming to.
My grandfather told me “Marry only for love.” And by the grace of God I found my one love and married her. Our love makes our marriage legitimate in the eyes of the Church.
But someone ought to explain to me what “love” has got to do with the legitimacy of a marriage in the eyes of the government. From the government’s perspective, marriage is a legal institution, has nothing to do with love. I recently read an article about a couple that has been married and divorced twenty-eight times. They get divorced every year in order gain the right to file their tax return a particular way. ???????? They marry and divorce at their whim in order to affect their right to claim a government benefit. Sound familiar? Why is it wrong to do this with INS but perfectly legal to do it with IRS?
Please don’t get me wrong. I strongly believe in my grandfather’s words. But how can the government justify using my love for my spouse (or whatever reason we chose to marry) as a criteria for awarding us particular rights?
I would suggest the criteria ought to be more like…”Are you a US citizen?”….”Yes.”…..”Then in your lifetime you will have the opportunity to invite one foreigner of your choice to live with you in this country. They will still be checked for security and safety. And they may not PAY you for this benefit. But you will not be asked questions about your love for one another. When they arrive, you will be legally bound to this person forever (Affadavit of Support?), but they need not be your spouse.”
It wouldn’t be fraud if the government didn’t somehow claim the privilege of judging your relationship with another human being. “Do you love this person?”…”None of your business!”
Getting off the soapbox now.
Lardbird
But someone ought to explain to me what “love” has got to do with the legitimacy of a marriage in the eyes of the government. From the government’s perspective, marriage is a legal institution, has nothing to do with love. I recently read an article about a couple that has been married and divorced twenty-eight times. They get divorced every year in order gain the right to file their tax return a particular way. ???????? They marry and divorce at their whim in order to affect their right to claim a government benefit. Sound familiar? Why is it wrong to do this with INS but perfectly legal to do it with IRS?
Please don’t get me wrong. I strongly believe in my grandfather’s words. But how can the government justify using my love for my spouse (or whatever reason we chose to marry) as a criteria for awarding us particular rights?
I would suggest the criteria ought to be more like…”Are you a US citizen?”….”Yes.”…..”Then in your lifetime you will have the opportunity to invite one foreigner of your choice to live with you in this country. They will still be checked for security and safety. And they may not PAY you for this benefit. But you will not be asked questions about your love for one another. When they arrive, you will be legally bound to this person forever (Affadavit of Support?), but they need not be your spouse.”
It wouldn’t be fraud if the government didn’t somehow claim the privilege of judging your relationship with another human being. “Do you love this person?”…”None of your business!”
Getting off the soapbox now.
Lardbird
lardbird said:
totally agreed.
i don't understand why USCIS requires everything(bank statement, lease, insurance) has to be shared in both parties. i mean my co-workers (all americans) they don't have that many shared information at all. When i explained I need my wife and my name appear on those docs, they are suprised. I mean we get married, doesn't mean that we have to share EVERTYTHING together to prove the marriage legitimacy. that is just crzy. but i guess USCIS is really running out of ideas on how to prove the legitmacy of marriage. well...
merovingian
Registered Users (C)
Lardbird,
This is just plain wrong. And that couple will get in trouble with IRS after that article. What you are saying that it is OK to break laws. Taking money to bring somebody into this county is wrong from many points of view. But the worst is that people who do that with love instead of money have a hard time.
USCIS does require a lot of proof, mainly because a lot of fake marriages are happening. It is risky to open a joint account together, since if there is no love involved and other party can take you to the "Cleaners" . And I can see why USCIS require certain things..
I am not here to judge just to express my opinion.
This is just plain wrong. And that couple will get in trouble with IRS after that article. What you are saying that it is OK to break laws. Taking money to bring somebody into this county is wrong from many points of view. But the worst is that people who do that with love instead of money have a hard time.
USCIS does require a lot of proof, mainly because a lot of fake marriages are happening. It is risky to open a joint account together, since if there is no love involved and other party can take you to the "Cleaners" . And I can see why USCIS require certain things..
I am not here to judge just to express my opinion.
Last edited by a moderator:
Merovingian,
No, I ABSOLUTELY did NOT say it is ok to break the law. And I specifically said that you should not be paid to extend this right to someone...I said that specifically!!
My point is that the government has no jurisdiction over the LOVE in my marriage. They choose to recognize my marriage because of the paperwork I filed and the fees I paid (along with several other factors...ie is my spouse the opposite sex). I file the paperwork and the governement recognizes my marriage as legitimate. But then the INS takes it upon themselves to second-guess the rest of the government by saying "Prove you're in love, sho wme you've taken financial risks together." The one that really chapped my azz was the interviewer telling us that we should bring birth certificates for our children to our next interview, "if you should decide to have children". Noone in government will tell me whether or not or when to have children. Noone. I would sooner renounce my citizenship and go live in my wife's country.
What I DID say was that the law should be changed to remove the INS's perceived authority to judge human relationships. I strongly believe no government agency should claim or hold that authority.
Lardbird
No, I ABSOLUTELY did NOT say it is ok to break the law. And I specifically said that you should not be paid to extend this right to someone...I said that specifically!!
My point is that the government has no jurisdiction over the LOVE in my marriage. They choose to recognize my marriage because of the paperwork I filed and the fees I paid (along with several other factors...ie is my spouse the opposite sex). I file the paperwork and the governement recognizes my marriage as legitimate. But then the INS takes it upon themselves to second-guess the rest of the government by saying "Prove you're in love, sho wme you've taken financial risks together." The one that really chapped my azz was the interviewer telling us that we should bring birth certificates for our children to our next interview, "if you should decide to have children". Noone in government will tell me whether or not or when to have children. Noone. I would sooner renounce my citizenship and go live in my wife's country.
What I DID say was that the law should be changed to remove the INS's perceived authority to judge human relationships. I strongly believe no government agency should claim or hold that authority.
Lardbird
No, I ABSOLUTELY did NOT say it is ok to break the law. And I specifically said that you should not be paid to extend this right to someone...I said that specifically!!
My point is that the government has no jurisdiction over the LOVE in my marriage. They choose to recognize my marriage because of the paperwork I filed and the fees I paid (along with several other factors...ie is my spouse the opposite sex). I file the paperwork and the governement recognizes my marriage as legitimate. But then the INS takes it upon themselves to second-guess the rest of the government by saying "Prove you're in love, sho wme you've taken financial risks together." The one that really chapped my azz was the interviewer telling us that we should bring birth certificates for our children to our next interview, "if you should decide to have children". Noone in government will tell me whether or not or when to have children. Noone. I would sooner renounce my citizenship and go live in my wife's country.
What I DID say was that the law should be changed to remove the INS's perceived authority to judge human relationships. I strongly believe no government agency should claim or hold that authority.
Lardbird
I don't think they ask you to prove that you are in love, otherwise arranged married couple would have trouble in their interview. They simply ask you to prove that your marriage is not fraud. All the docs they ask are just help them to judge.
My point is that the government has no jurisdiction over the LOVE in my marriage. They choose to recognize my marriage because of the paperwork I filed and the fees I paid (along with several other factors...ie is my spouse the opposite sex). I file the paperwork and the governement recognizes my marriage as legitimate. But then the INS takes it upon themselves to second-guess the rest of the government by saying "Prove you're in love, sho wme you've taken financial risks together." The one that really chapped my azz was the interviewer telling us that we should bring birth certificates for our children to our next interview, "if you should decide to have children". Noone in government will tell me whether or not or when to have children. Noone. I would sooner renounce my citizenship and go live in my wife's country.
What I DID say was that the law should be changed to remove the INS's perceived authority to judge human relationships. I strongly believe no government agency should claim or hold that authority.
Lardbird
I don't think they ask you to prove that you are in love, otherwise arranged married couple would have trouble in their interview. They simply ask you to prove that your marriage is not fraud. All the docs they ask are just help them to judge.
Clearly this is a hot button issue for me. The tack and tone of the officer at the Chicago DO turned me into something of an activist on this particular topic.
Fine, they don’t ask me to prove my “love”. Instead they ask me to prove that my marriage is not a fraud. Let me rephrase that…they ask me to prove that I have not committed the crime of marital fraud, after all, it is a crime, right? But wait a minute, I’m a US citizen, and as a US citizen I do not have the responsibility to prove that I have NOT committed a crime. The burden of proving a crime has been committed lies instead in the hands of the government.
The process of INS today goes something like this….
1) Show us that you are legally married.
2) Yes, this is a very nice legal marriage certificate issued by a recognized state or local government. But we think your marriage is a fraud and you’ve committed a crime. PROVE THAT YOU’RE INNOCENT or we will deny your petition for your rights.
3) Now, we hardly ever prosecute anyone for marriage fraud, so you don’t have to prove it in court, just here in our office. But if you refuse to PROVE YOUR INNOCENCE, then we’ll deny your access to this benefit. We have all the power, you are a taxpaying turd.
Admittedly, my objection is based solely on the perspective of the citizen-half of the Citizen/Foreigner couple. INS will certainly say that the foreigner-half is not a citizen and therefore not protected by the right of Innocent Until Proven Guilty. Fine, prosecute the foreigner half, this ought to last about 8 seconds before the Appeals Courts begin turning the system on its head.
Note, while we waited 15 months for an adjustment interview I viewed the whole process as a bureaucratic mess but not a personal insult. When we received our interview letter, we prepared a packet including an original and a copy of EVERY item on the interview letter evidence list. My wife even went to the trouble and expense of scanning and reprinting our entire wedding album. The Chicago DO officer asked for our mortgage. It was not on our interview letter, I did not have it. At the end of our interview, she told us we were approved pending namecheck (A whole other hot button topic for me), but when we applied to remove the conditional status of our greencard, we should “be prepared to offer more evidence, what you’ve shown me here today was pretty thin.” Remember, I took an original and a copy of EVERY item on the list that THEY put together. So I bravely asked, what more evidence would you like, what did I exclude from your requested list. She gave two answers. First, the mortgage above, and again IT WAS NOT ON THEIR LIST! Her second answer nearly put me on the floor. “The birth certificates of your children, if you should decide to have children.” That’s just not right. I will not have children simply to prove the legitimacy of my marriage. Not to prove it to my family, or her family, or our priest. OR THE GOVERNMENT! I simply will not allow this to be an issue influencing our decision to start and raise our family. As above, ONLY FOR LOVE will we have children. I’d sooner leave this country permanently than have children for any other reason.
I recognize the risk of marriage fraud. That is why I propose that any US citizen be allowed to invite one foreigner of your choice to live with you in this country. They will still be checked for security and safety. And they may not PAY you for this benefit. But you will not be asked questions about your love for one another. When they arrive, you will be legally bound to this person forever (Affadavit of Support?), but they need not be your spouse. Choose your one wisely, you will be legally bound to support them in this country forever (an Affadavit of Support has no expiration date), and you will never be allowed a second chance, not even for your next one true love.
Does any taxpaying US citizen on this forum believe that this system is really working? You’re paying for it. As a matter of fact, you’re paying for it twice, in taxes and fees.
Write your congressman, demand that immigration reform become a priority in Congress. And not just immigration reform as it applies to American business, but as it applies to you, stuck here in the middle of this process, living with the stress that this immigration uncertainty brings to your marriage. You don’t need it. You’ve paid them, twice, to perform their due process before allowing you your rights guaranteed by the Constitution, enough waiting and proving, demand that you be allowed your pursuit of happiness.
Breaking the soapbox into little pieces,
Lardbird
(Wow, do I sound like a militant wacko!)
Fine, they don’t ask me to prove my “love”. Instead they ask me to prove that my marriage is not a fraud. Let me rephrase that…they ask me to prove that I have not committed the crime of marital fraud, after all, it is a crime, right? But wait a minute, I’m a US citizen, and as a US citizen I do not have the responsibility to prove that I have NOT committed a crime. The burden of proving a crime has been committed lies instead in the hands of the government.
The process of INS today goes something like this….
1) Show us that you are legally married.
2) Yes, this is a very nice legal marriage certificate issued by a recognized state or local government. But we think your marriage is a fraud and you’ve committed a crime. PROVE THAT YOU’RE INNOCENT or we will deny your petition for your rights.
3) Now, we hardly ever prosecute anyone for marriage fraud, so you don’t have to prove it in court, just here in our office. But if you refuse to PROVE YOUR INNOCENCE, then we’ll deny your access to this benefit. We have all the power, you are a taxpaying turd.
Admittedly, my objection is based solely on the perspective of the citizen-half of the Citizen/Foreigner couple. INS will certainly say that the foreigner-half is not a citizen and therefore not protected by the right of Innocent Until Proven Guilty. Fine, prosecute the foreigner half, this ought to last about 8 seconds before the Appeals Courts begin turning the system on its head.
Note, while we waited 15 months for an adjustment interview I viewed the whole process as a bureaucratic mess but not a personal insult. When we received our interview letter, we prepared a packet including an original and a copy of EVERY item on the interview letter evidence list. My wife even went to the trouble and expense of scanning and reprinting our entire wedding album. The Chicago DO officer asked for our mortgage. It was not on our interview letter, I did not have it. At the end of our interview, she told us we were approved pending namecheck (A whole other hot button topic for me), but when we applied to remove the conditional status of our greencard, we should “be prepared to offer more evidence, what you’ve shown me here today was pretty thin.” Remember, I took an original and a copy of EVERY item on the list that THEY put together. So I bravely asked, what more evidence would you like, what did I exclude from your requested list. She gave two answers. First, the mortgage above, and again IT WAS NOT ON THEIR LIST! Her second answer nearly put me on the floor. “The birth certificates of your children, if you should decide to have children.” That’s just not right. I will not have children simply to prove the legitimacy of my marriage. Not to prove it to my family, or her family, or our priest. OR THE GOVERNMENT! I simply will not allow this to be an issue influencing our decision to start and raise our family. As above, ONLY FOR LOVE will we have children. I’d sooner leave this country permanently than have children for any other reason.
I recognize the risk of marriage fraud. That is why I propose that any US citizen be allowed to invite one foreigner of your choice to live with you in this country. They will still be checked for security and safety. And they may not PAY you for this benefit. But you will not be asked questions about your love for one another. When they arrive, you will be legally bound to this person forever (Affadavit of Support?), but they need not be your spouse. Choose your one wisely, you will be legally bound to support them in this country forever (an Affadavit of Support has no expiration date), and you will never be allowed a second chance, not even for your next one true love.
Does any taxpaying US citizen on this forum believe that this system is really working? You’re paying for it. As a matter of fact, you’re paying for it twice, in taxes and fees.
Write your congressman, demand that immigration reform become a priority in Congress. And not just immigration reform as it applies to American business, but as it applies to you, stuck here in the middle of this process, living with the stress that this immigration uncertainty brings to your marriage. You don’t need it. You’ve paid them, twice, to perform their due process before allowing you your rights guaranteed by the Constitution, enough waiting and proving, demand that you be allowed your pursuit of happiness.
Breaking the soapbox into little pieces,
Lardbird
(Wow, do I sound like a militant wacko!)
lardbird, i agree with u, but remeber there are exceptions. u know as a matter of fact 80 percent of the application uscis approves are fake, but there is no evidence to prove the marriage is fake. guess what?? we all know that, and uscis know that,if u want the green card. just do whatever they want.of course in your native country,there are law for citizens and non citizens,don,t stress your self, u fellow uscis,s procedure and get the green card or stay without status, is not necessary nor a law to file for green card because u married to a usc,and also about the name check stuff,look america got alot of crimes.check this example out, if u know a criminal who stays in your house and gives u trouble,will u allow a additional criminal to came and join?????? and how can they know the good guyz without doing finger print and name check,this country has alot to give a foreighn born person. just fellow the rules,those who were born here fellow the rules as well,why not u???????GOD REALLY BLESS AMERICA
tangysings
Registered Users (C)
Lardbird, I understand your sentiment but allowing all USC to invite ONE person to live in the US would be an immrigration mess and would make room for more fraud, or at least in the sense that there would be more me-paying-you-to-sponser-me.
tangysings
Registered Users (C)
yahayajp said:
yahayajp,
80% are fraudulent!?!?!?! Either there's a problem with that number or THE SYSTEM IS NOT WORKING! I have not seen the this statistic anywhere else, nor the research to support it, but I have to think it is more on the scale of 1/10th or 1/100th of your 80% figure. If INS believes 80% of marriages are fraudulent but allow them anyway because they can't prove it, then the system is fatally flawed on so many levels.
As to "foloowing the rules", I have followed them , even the ones I strongly disagree with. But following them does not preclude me from being an advocate for the change of those rules. As to a GC not being a necessity, staying without status, how exactly will my wife be allowed to re-enter the US when traveling to see her parents or coming back from a vacation? No, USCIS certainly makes this a necessity.
tangysings,
Yeah, I know at its very base that the one-citizen-one-guest policy will not work because of the immigration boom it would create and the stress it would put on the system....not just INS, but schools, transportation, housing, law enforcement. All that stress on the American infrastructure will only piss off a different set of Americans. Those using the immigration system will be happy with it, those not using it but paying the same taxes will hate immigration even more.
There are no perfect solutions. But it would be nice if the people we elect to make our laws could at least demonstrate that they are pursuing imperfect solutions.
Good luck with your processes everyone,
Lardbird
80% are fraudulent!?!?!?! Either there's a problem with that number or THE SYSTEM IS NOT WORKING! I have not seen the this statistic anywhere else, nor the research to support it, but I have to think it is more on the scale of 1/10th or 1/100th of your 80% figure. If INS believes 80% of marriages are fraudulent but allow them anyway because they can't prove it, then the system is fatally flawed on so many levels.
As to "foloowing the rules", I have followed them , even the ones I strongly disagree with. But following them does not preclude me from being an advocate for the change of those rules. As to a GC not being a necessity, staying without status, how exactly will my wife be allowed to re-enter the US when traveling to see her parents or coming back from a vacation? No, USCIS certainly makes this a necessity.
tangysings,
Yeah, I know at its very base that the one-citizen-one-guest policy will not work because of the immigration boom it would create and the stress it would put on the system....not just INS, but schools, transportation, housing, law enforcement. All that stress on the American infrastructure will only piss off a different set of Americans. Those using the immigration system will be happy with it, those not using it but paying the same taxes will hate immigration even more.
There are no perfect solutions. But it would be nice if the people we elect to make our laws could at least demonstrate that they are pursuing imperfect solutions.
Good luck with your processes everyone,
Lardbird