Let us Discuss Labor Substitution vis-a-vis The Mess of EB Immigration!!

[Imm_Exploited]

Do you Care to Discuss Labor Substitution vis-a-vis The Mess of EB Immigration??

Let us discuss the impact labor substitution had or is still having on the EB2 and EB3 categories immigration backlog.

Though the labor substitution is getting eliminated shortly, the negative impact on those who do not use labor sub and file for themselves is likely to continue at least for the next two years.

Though I may have something against those who used the labor sub, I invite them to post their opinion under this thread.

 

[inskrish]

Though the labor substitution is getting eliminated shortly, the negative impact on those who do not use labor sub and file for themselves is likely to continue at least for the next two years.

Hi Imm,

Could you please exlplain the above point? I would like to understand how the substitute labor elimination would affect other applicants?

Regards,
Krishna

 

[belmontboy]

Depends on the number of cases. Small numbers may not have much impact.
Getting rid of labor substitution was a good move though...

 

[Jackolantern]

Could you please exlplain the above point? I would like to understand how the substitute labor elimination would affect other applicants?

It means the cutoff dates in the visa bulletin can move forward at a meaningful rate.

Priority dates are decided (or rather, supposed to be decided) by looking at the oldest X number of pending cases in each category (based on their priority date) and the cutoff date is the priority date of the X+1 case. X is determined by the number of green cards available for a given month and category and country. When labor substitution was going on, the dates could not move much because the USCIS was receiving a constant inflow of applications with old priority dates.

 

[Imm_Exploited]

If You are NOT GUILTY of LABOR SUB - Post Your Thoughts here

First of all, thank you Jackolantern for posting your clarification on the issue.

There seems to be too many people here on these forums that have used the labor sub, hence guilty and unable to gather the courage to post under this thread. If this is untrue, either the applicants are not aware of the consequences of the labor sub racket or they just do not care.

Several immigration lawyers and people like UN and may be some from USCIS have been making lot of money through the labor sub loophole. Hopefully, all that is going to end soon.

Here is the latest from Oh Law Web site:

USCIS Confirms That Sub I-140 Will Be Received Monday, 07/16/2007

* AILA reported that the USCIS had confirmed that the substitution I-140 petition which would arrive at the appropriate Service Centers would be considered timely filed for the purpose of the elimination of substitution I-140.

The above should give you an idea how the labor sub is being manipulated and misused right to the wire - Monday - July 16, 2007. And after accepting the labor sub applications on July 16, 2007, corruption could still exist with the decision being entirely on USCIS to decide whether to approve the I-140 or reject it (if they are not happy).

 

[inskrish]

It means the cutoff dates in the visa bulletin can move forward at a meaningful rate.

Priority dates are decided (or rather, supposed to be decided) by looking at the oldest X number of pending cases in each category (based on their priority date) and the cutoff date is the priority date of the X+1 case. X is determined by the number of green cards available for a given month and category and country. When labor substitution was going on, the dates could not move much because the USCIS was receiving a constant inflow of applications with old priority dates.

Jackolantern,

I got it. Thanks for the good explanation.

Regards,
IK

 

[Dallas03096]

The fact that USCIS was giving the original PD for substitute labor instead of following a more logical PD = RD for I-140 / I-485 for the substituted person was a clear indication that there were many parties who were benefiting from the unethical substitute labor market. It is good that substitute labor practice is going away at last!

 

[DesiVidesi]

If You are NOT GUILTY of LABOR SUB - Post Your Thoughts here

There seems to be too many people here on these forums that have used the labor sub, hence guilty and unable to gather the courage to post under this thread. If this is untrue, either the applicants are not aware of the consequences of the labor sub racket or they just do not care.

How are people who have used Substitute Labor guilty when it was perfectly legal to do so ? Forget individuals like perhaps UN, even large established firms have used it for their clients. If using substitute labor is immoral, what about using provisions of AC21 wherein one leaves the GC sponsorer, joins another firm and continues using the previous AOS to get a GC ?

And what does one even know of the circumstances under which the substitute labor was used ? My previous Desi employer filed for GC for scores of employees way back in 2001/2002 through some back-office-sole-attorney. This attorney messed up with the filing of several people and the employer as-expected did not bother. As a result not a single employee as yet received his GC. Some out of frustration went to Canada. Some left the company and re-started their GCs with other companies. And some are still stuck with the company in hopes of getting their GC.

I too had applied for GC with this firm and left it out of frustration after serving them like a slave for six years. I won't be surprised if my labor was used by this company.

So I got this nice company who gave me their labor (No sale) and I'm happily working for them. I'm treated well and what's more as you can see I've progressed a lot in my GC process. If I'd stayed back with my earlier firm, I would be rotting in hell till today.

 

[Jackolantern]

There are some companies that have a legitimate use for labor substitution -- they sponsor a valuable employee, and then the employee leaves for personal or professional reasons, and they need somebody else to fill the position. The fair thing to do would be to allow substitution, but reset the priority date to the date of the substitution.

Resetting the date, combined with a limited validity period (like 180 days, as in the new regulation) would practically end all the line-jumping and selling of labors, while still preserving the option for the few legitimate cases. However, they decided to go to the extreme and ban it altogether.

 

[neocor]

Abolishing Labor Subsitution is the only reason for the current state

Okay here is what it is.

Labor Substitution was intended for good purpose initially.
If you think about it in detail it was needed for companies who have spent money to apply labor for a prospective employee who later never came of left the company. The company could still use the same labor for a similar candidate instead of going through the entire process again.

That is all its usefulness.

However this became an object of abuse and for many consulting companies a way to make money and stay in business.
From 2001 onwards the misuse/abuse started taking gargantuan proportions.

Companies started substituting labors of those unsuspecting employees who were still very much working with them.
They started multiple substitution of a single labor for unsuspecting buyers who later got screwed. INS takes a long time to figure out if the labor has already been substituted.
Companies started taking advantage of desperate candidates who have a permanent jobs in other companies (in states like NJ where Labor processing was very long) to apply Labor. The candidates would pay for the labor and later when ther labor comes they wont be informed and it will be substituted or put on eBay for other unsuspecting candidates.
This had become a business model of a lot of companies.
Then came the ultimate, a lot of companies started substituting labors of people whose Green card had been approved. They took advantage of the fact that USCIS does not reject these applications the day these fraudulent I-140 are filed with the substituted labor.

Now here is what happened 3 years back because of all the above factors.

USCIS received millions of 485 applications based on 85% of fraudulent Substituted Labor. They dint have time to look into each to figure out which is good and which is bad. The result all these got counted when they decided on finally retrogressing the PD's at the beginning of 2005.
Also the 245i fiasco help confuse the matter. Eeveryone including USCIS thought that the 245i applicants are flooding the system, and this theory was propagated by everyone including most gurus in this forum.
Then when USCIS put April 01 as the PD cut off date 2 years back, the consulting companies started Fraudulently substituting Labors from year 1998 - 2000.
This then resulted in more sever retrogression.

Now in the last 1 year the USCIS has finally dug into the millions of fraudulent 485 filings and came to the conclusion that the solution is to remove the Labor substitution rule. Once the smoke cleared they realized the 245i was never the reason for these number of applications. This also resulted in wasted of about 11000 Visa Numbers in 2006.

So now that everything is cleared up things will be smooth.

I have said this before a lot of times, and every time i was shot down by all the gurus here giving their calculations and numbers about 245i applications.

I don't see any of those gurus these days in the forums.
I am thinking the abolishment of Labor Substitution rule has closed their business.

neo

 

[rambaba]

How are people who have used Substitute Labor guilty when it was perfectly legal to do so ? Forget individuals like perhaps UN, even large established firms have used it for their clients. If using substitute labor is immoral, what about using provisions of AC21 wherein one leaves the GC sponsorer, joins another firm and continues using the previous AOS to get a GC ?

And what does one even know of the circumstances under which the substitute labor was used ? My previous Desi employer filed for GC for scores of employees way back in 2001/2002 through some back-office-sole-attorney. This attorney messed up with the filing of several people and the employer as-expected did not bother. As a result not a single employee as yet received his GC. Some out of frustration went to Canada. Some left the company and re-started their GCs with other companies. And some are still stuck with the company in hopes of getting their GC.

I too had applied for GC with this firm and left it out of frustration after serving them like a slave for six years. I won't be surprised if my labor was used by this company.

So I got this nice company who gave me their labor (No sale) and I'm happily working for them. I'm treated well and what's more as you can see I've progressed a lot in my GC process. If I'd stayed back with my earlier firm, I would be rotting in hell till today.

Nobody says people using labor substitution are bad. It is only the people who PAY for labor substitution are bad, unethical, immoral.....

What ever be the reason or situation, going for substitute labor in exchange for money is bad bad bad.

Your case may be different. You said you did not pay. But you are part of negligible percentage of genuine cases. Rest are fraud to the core.

 

[rambaba]

Okay here is what it is.

Labor Substitution was intended for good purpose initially.
If you think about it in detail it was needed for companies who have spent money to apply labor for a prospective employee who later never came of left the company. The company could still use the same labor for a similar candidate instead of going through the entire process again.

That is all its usefulness.

However this became an object of abuse and for many consulting companies a way to make money and stay in business.
From 2001 onwards the misuse/abuse started taking gargantuan proportions.

Companies started substituting labors of those unsuspecting employees who were still very much working with them.
They started multiple substitution of a single labor for unsuspecting buyers who later got screwed. INS takes a long time to figure out if the labor has already been substituted.
Companies started taking advantage of desperate candidates who have a permanent jobs in other companies (in states like NJ where Labor processing was very long) to apply Labor. The candidates would pay for the labor and later when ther labor comes they wont be informed and it will be substituted or put on eBay for other unsuspecting candidates.
This had become a business model of a lot of companies.
Then came the ultimate, a lot of companies started substituting labors of people whose Green card had been approved. They took advantage of the fact that USCIS does not reject these applications the day these fraudulent I-140 are filed with the substituted labor.

Now here is what happened 3 years back because of all the above factors.

USCIS received millions of 485 applications based on 85% of fraudulent Substituted Labor. They dint have time to look into each to figure out which is good and which is bad. The result all these got counted when they decided on finally retrogressing the PD's at the beginning of 2005.
Also the 245i fiasco help confuse the matter. Eeveryone including USCIS thought that the 245i applicants are flooding the system, and this theory was propagated by everyone including most gurus in this forum.
Then when USCIS put April 01 as the PD cut off date 2 years back, the consulting companies started Fraudulently substituting Labors from year 1998 - 2000.
This then resulted in more sever retrogression.

Now in the last 1 year the USCIS has finally dug into the millions of fraudulent 485 filings and came to the conclusion that the solution is to remove the Labor substitution rule. Once the smoke cleared they realized the 245i was never the reason for these number of applications. This also resulted in wasted of about 11000 Visa Numbers in 2006.

So now that everything is cleared up things will be smooth.

I have said this before a lot of times, and every time i was shot down by all the gurus here giving their calculations and numbers about 245i applications.

I don't see any of those gurus these days in the forums.
I am thinking the abolishment of Labor Substitution rule has closed their business.

neo

Well Said, Neocor

Many people made good money by taking advantage of retrogression, labor substitution. UN made good money. I dont understand what authority or licence he/she got in preparing & filing labor substitution cases.

 

[Imm_Exploited]

neocor

My compliments to you!! Really very very happy the way you have come out and explained.

I am not quoting what you said here under this thread for space reasons. But very well said.

In my opinion, labor sub had no good intentions. The whole GC concept is bonded labor anyway. I only hope they do not come out with some new regulations such as eliminating AC21 and making it mandatory for GC aspirants to stick with their sponsors for minimum of 5 years. That will prove further that the US deliberately practices slavery of its immigrants.

I have no sympathies for the so-called 'genuine' cases because they are the cause for my 'undeserving' delay. I am freakin pi&%$^ off at the ridiculous practice of H1Bs sitting on the bench with goofy companies while they are on the look out for labor sub sales. I am with USCIS on the total ban of labor sub unless they come up with something more outrageous.

Only when the total number of GCs per country equals the total number of H1Bs allowed from a particular country, the US can eliminate the factual blame of being a country who practices exploitation of 'legal immigrants' as slaves (slavery of the illegals in this country is another story).

Sincerely - IE

 

[For My Country]

If you are nOTE GUILTY OF LABOR SUB - Post your thoughts here

If You are NOT GUILTY of LABOR SUB - Post Your Thoughts here

First of all, thank you Jackolantern for posting your clarification on the issue.

There seems to be too many people here on these forums that have used the labor sub, hence guilty and unable to gather the courage to post under this thread. If this is untrue, either the applicants are not aware of the consequences of the labor sub racket or they just do not care.

Several immigration lawyers and people like UN and may be some from USCIS have been making lot of money through the labor sub loophole. Hopefully, all that is going to end soon.

Here is the latest from Oh Law Web site:

USCIS Confirms That Sub I-140 Will Be Received Monday, 07/16/2007

* AILA reported that the USCIS had confirmed that the substitution I-140 petition which would arrive at the appropriate Service Centers would be considered timely filed for the purpose of the elimination of substitution I-140.

The above should give you an idea how the labor sub is being manipulated and misused right to the wire - Monday - July 16, 2007. And after accepting the labor sub applications on July 16, 2007, corruption could still exist with the decision being entirely on USCIS to decide whether to approve the I-140 or reject it (if they are not happy).

I have posted my thoughts about Labor Sub and its effects elsewhere on this forum. Here again.

The July Visa Bulletin Fiasco has jeopardized AILA members business and forced them to file class action law suit.


Here are few historical situations where AILA did not do much to help their clients as it was not directly helping them and I personally experienced and endured these un-favorable situations in the last 10 years.

1. 245i Cases: In 2001, former President Bill Clinton was very generous to change lives of 100s of thousands of out of status personnel in US to apply for GC through family and employment channels. 100s of thousands benefited. In the east cost it took nearly 4 years to get labor approved for an employment sponsored application.. AILA has never put any successful effort to expedite the labor certification process, nor lobbied to prevent transferring pending applications to backlog centers
2. Result, many abandoned labor certifications, which are sold in substitute labor market for as high as 25k. Both, employer and attorney are beneficiaries in this LC sale. My guess is that, not more than 5% have received genuine labor substitute benefit with out spending extra amount.

3. Limited Annual Employment GC quota: Having known that 100s of thousands of additional labor certifications are pouring into the system through 245i , AILA has not been successful in lobbying for additional quota to accommodate the 245i cases. These cases were merged with H1 legal immigrant GC cases and resulted in deep retrogression to the advantage of AILA members. Legal immigrants were pushed behind 245i cases. These 245i cases should have been pooled separate like ‘other workers’ to protect the legal Tax paying immigrants GC applications. What AILA has done in this regard?

4. Labor Substitution: While every one knows the sincerity of this provision, AILA has done its best to stop/delay the elimination of labor substitution. It has always asked every prospective beneficiary to fight tooth and nail to stop elimination for the sole reason of self help than American Industrial needs.

5. I 485 transfers and Bi Specialization: East Coast States Labor Certifications were delayed by years and years, while other states were approving in less that a year. Year 2001 applications were approved in late 2004 and 2005. These 4 years old PDs were submitted to Vermont Center.

In 2005 July, when visa numbers became un- available, several thousands were struck, while at other centers GCs were approved with PDs 2003 and 2004.

These pending 2001 and 2002 year PD 485 cases were waiting at Vermont center from 2005 to 2007 for the PD to become current for retrogressed countries. Bi specialization was promoted as cure for this imbalance of approval dates.

5. In March 2007 all Vermont center 485 cases were transferred to Texas service center. What a disadvantage??? 2001 PD cases from Vermont center with 485 RD in 2004 and 2005 have to watch in desperation when 2002, 2003, and 2004 cases from native Texas center are getting approved in Jun 2007. What AILA has done to protect the interest of Vermont center 485 cases with PD in 2001 and 2002??. New York State applicants are the most disadvantaged lot.

 

[For My Country]

Do you Care to Discuss Labor Substitution vis-a-vi

Do you Care to Discuss Labor Substitution vis-a-vis The Mess of EB Immigration??

Let us discuss the impact labor substitution had or is still having on the EB2 and EB3 categories immigration backlog.

Though the labor substitution is getting eliminated shortly, the negative impact on those who do not use labor sub and file for themselves is likely to continue at least for the next two years.

Though I may have something against those who used the labor sub, I invite them to post their opinion under this thread.

Thank "God". Sub labor will end on 07.16.07.

 

[Imm_Exploited]

Imagine how many Labor Subs are filed on 07/16/07

Imagine how many Labor Subs are filed on 07/16/07

It will be interesting to see how many applications (I-140s?) will be filed on Monday - July 16, 2007.

The fate of upcoming Visa Bulletins could depend on how many are filed (with older priority dates of 1998/1999/2000/2001/2002/2003/2004/2005) and how many are approved by USCIS.

I wonder what the stats are on labor subs - I mean by country with PDs. Will there be ever any kind of transparency with the DOS/USCIS/DOL??

Thank "God". Sub labor will end on 07.16.07.