J1--> j2 --> work permit tricky question

G

gbored

Registered Users (C)
I want an opinion!

Priorites:

1. Good Residency and Good fellowships!
2. Work in academics as a teaching/researcher. Not interested in private practise.
3. US Green card/citizenship NOT interested. Would like to work in US for some time, and make money, acquire property etc..

Plan:

1. I plan to Accept J1 with belief that most programs dont offer Fellowships on H1B. Correct me if I am wrong! Most good Residency programs dont offer H1B, and hardly any Fellowship programs offer H1B.

2. Meanwhile, wife also FMG and 2 years junior, is on J2 dependent status. Gives USMLE, and gets matched. Can spouse start residency on J2? as J2 has work permit? I will then be in my PGY2.

3. J1 holder (me) gets fellowship, another three years PGY4-6. Meanwhile wife J2 gets fellowship! Me complete fellowship on J1 PGY6, while wife J2 has 2 more years to go. So, she applies to ECFMG for J1 visa! Meanwhile, I am subjected to 2 years home commitment?

4. Can I (J1 expired) change J2 dependent statys, since wife is doing her PGY5 and 6 on J1?

5. J2 has work permit. Can I on J2, join a University hospital as Faculty/Attendee/Researcher?

6. In next 2 years me on J2 work permit try for O1 waiver, person of extra ordinary ability?

Lets me be practical here, but I want to know if this is legally possible?

Btw, it is possible that over ten year period, the visa laws may change to the worse or better. Remember, Green card/citizenship is not my priority!!


http://intl-programs.uiowa.edu/oiss/documents_pdf/J1_to_J2.pdf



http://www.ips.uiuc.edu/ifsa/j1-12.html
J-2 to J-1

A J-2 dependent may wish to change to J-1 status in order to accept academic employment or for other reasons. The J-2 is restricted by the rules described in "Beginning a new program" on page 18 and may not change status to J-1 if subject to the two-year home residence requirement. The dependent's prospective J-1 sponsor will assist with the change of status application, but if it appears that the change will cause the applicant's stay to extend beyond the time limit for your J-1 category, INS will also require a letter from the applicant stating that he/she understands that you probably will not be allowed to change to J-2 status and thereby extend your stay beyond the original time limit to remain in the U.S. with your dependent who has changed to J-1. The twelve-month rule applies to J-2s as well. An individual who has been in J-2 status for more than six months is not eligible to become a J-1 professor or research scholar until he/she has been out of J status for twelve months.
Click to expand...

Guess I answered my own question :( Googled it out
 
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The forgoing is and has been a choice and/or only option for several physician couples over the years. Everything is legal and possible; there are instances of every J1-J2-O1 combinations in exchange visitor physician's community that I have come to know over the past 10 odd years. Several of them started out like you propose to. However at some point all of us have felt compromised in our careers due to the visa restrictions. Good luck for your endeavour and medical career, make an informed decision about visa issues and always remember once on J visa it sticks to you like dirty old gum spit on New York subway station!!! :)
 
> most programs dont offer Fellowships on H1B. Correct me if I

This is correct.

> am wrong! Most good Residency programs dont offer H1B,

Partially correct. Some universities will do H1b if you talk to them. They might put NEVER on their website, if you negotiate, some will buckle.

> 2. Meanwhile, wife also FMG and 2 years junior, is on J2 dependent
> status. Gives USMLE, and gets matched. Can spouse start residency
> on J2? as J2 has work permit? I will then be in my PGY2.

Yes. I heard something that the work permit on J2 is limited to 4 years max, but I don't have any law to back that rumour up.

> 3. J1 holder (me) gets fellowship, another three years PGY4-6.
> Meanwhile wife J2 gets fellowship! Me complete fellowship on J1
> PGY6, while wife J2 has 2 more years to go. So, she applies to
> ECFMG for J1 visa! Meanwhile, I am subjected to 2 years
> home commitment?

Problem: Now your wife has her own HRR. If she was just your J2 dependent, her HRR would be relieved with your waiver.

> 4. Can I (J1 expired) change J2 dependent statys, since wife is
> doing her PGY5 and 6 on J1?

Unless you maxed out your 7 years, yes. (and even then, if your I94 stamp says Duration/status you can stay as long as you have a valid DS2019)

> 5. J2 has work permit. Can I on J2, join a University hospital
> as Faculty/Attendee/Researcher?

J2 can't make more money than the J1 it is based on (something about 'not supplementing the family income', a very unamerican concept)

> 6. In next 2 years me on J2 work permit try for O1 waiver, person
> of extra ordinary ability?

Never bank on an O1. Without really hardcore research these are hard to come by. In the past, the O1 at least in the VSC jurisdiction was a realistic option. I know people who had like 2 papers and 1 year research experience who got it. But don't bank on it. The O1 also doesn't relieve your HRR, it just pushes it off.

Remember one thing: After 6 years here and fellowship you will be looking at very attractive job offers here. While going back might look like a good option right now 6 years from now you will scramble for options to get out of this.
 
> 1. Good Residency and Good fellowships!

Good priorities.

> 2. Work in academics as a teaching/researcher. Not interested in
> private practise.

The distinction between private practice and academia is getting blurry. There are only very few classic 'tenured' jobs around, the type were you get a fixed salary no matter how productive you are. In many academic places you have to earn your salary these days, with growing patient care responsibilities and shrinking research times. If you want to do research, you have to bring in the grants to 'buy' your own time back from the university. So, anticipate that you will have a private practice workload, no matter whether you are in an actual private practice or in an academic department.

> 3. US Green card/citizenship NOT interested. Would like to work
> in US for some time, and make money, acquire property etc..

Be sure to talk to your wife about that 6 years from now. By then, she will be looking at the nice beamers that her friends from the kids playgroup are driving. I don't know where you are from, but except for switzerland, there won't be a place you can get your wife to go back to 6 years from now.
 
True! Continuing on the Pros and Cons of J1

1. Easy Fellowship options and Residency.
2. Return to home country and work for 2 years. No problem! Most countries (including my home country India) offers great job prospects.

http://www.payscale.com/salary-survey/aid-78653/rid-58/fid-11570/RANAME-SALARY

Payscales approach 100,000$s a year compared to 500,000$s in US. But do consider the Malpractise insurance and Tax in US, against the Tax evasion and no insurance in Home country! Plus the standard of living is better in third world country with people to polish your shoes, do your laundry, drive your car (Lexus, BMV or Benz). Besides, you worked in US for 7-8 years right? So, you have enough contacts to sponsor you H1b in case you want to go back to US!

Compare to friends on H1b, who went through B grade Residency programs, minimal fellowship options. Most go to private practise after residency without fellowship training, then wait for green card to start Fellowship, which is not a bad idea. But then, you will be out of academic training for 4-5 years, which is quite a lot! Not many would have the motivation to return to training right?

J1 leads to home commitment. There is always an option of waiver job! If not Home commitment is not a bad choice! If home country is politically bad, then get a waiver based on that. Else, come back on H1B after home commitment, and work on H1b.

The only con of J1 is green card is delayed by 10 long years! Besides, US visa laws are so fickle, you never know what will happen in ten years! With the baby boomers needing more medical care than ever, Physicians may become a wanted commodity again :D
 
> Compare to friends on H1b, who went through B grade Residency
> programs, minimal fellowship options. Most go to private practise
> after residency without fellowship training, then wait for green
> card to start Fellowship, which is not a bad idea. But then, you
> will be out of academic training for 4-5 years, which is quite a
> lot! Not many would have the motivation to return to training right?

That was another way of handling it I wanted to mention. I know folks who went both ways, you seem to have a good grasp on the ups and downs of both options.

> J1 leads to home commitment. There is always an option of waiver job!

Yes and no. With fellowship training, the number of states shrinks. Also, the ARC is out. Most of the time, you will be stuck doing primary care for 3 years. (although, thanks to Sen Conrad, now there are finally some slots that can be located at hospitals and used for subspecialists.)

> If not Home commitment is not a bad choice! If home country is
> politically bad, then get a waiver based on that.

If you are talking about the 'political persecution' waiver, forget about it. The standard for that is similar to asylum. The 'exceptional hardship' is also hard to get.

It all depends on how willing you are to go back to your home country. If going to india is a viable option the J1 is not so bad. However, 6 years from now you (and your wife) might have changed your mind.

> The only con of J1 is green card is delayed by 10 long years!

That is the point. With J1 it takes you 10 years from entering the country to GC. With H1b it is usually about 5 years (you will be citizen by the time the J1 gets his GC) If you are interested in bringing your parents eventually, the H1b is the way to go.

> Besides, US visa laws are so fickle, you never know what will happen
> in ten years! With the baby boomers needing more medical care
> than ever, Physicians may become a wanted commodity again

Thats what everybody hopes for. Unfortunately, there are strong powers aligned against this, mainly the AMA (who bought us the entire J1 bull#$(% in the first place). Also, the US has way more physicians than any other developed country. Realistically, we could do with about 2/3 of the current workforce.
 
Outcome!

Conclsuion:

After our healthy discussion I have come to the following conclusions.

1. J1 is a good option for headache less education. It allows you to choose the Fellowship of your choice, basically the best option if you want fellowship.
2. H1b is great if you want to stay in US, doesnt help your education though. There are cases of residents changing to J1 from H1b to accept fellowships!!
3. Fellowship waiver are hard to get, so if you do a J1 waiver expect to do Primary care.. for 5 years? Thats lame.
4. You can always come back after 2 years of home commitment, again on H1B. Then 6-7 years later get your green card. A long process, wont help if you want to get your parents to US, as Hadron said.
5. Two year home commitment will be hard on your social obligations in US, with friends and family in US, you will not want to do you home commitment. Besides, when you are ready to leave US, your collegues on H1B would have got their Green card, which would be exciting!!
6. 8-10 year is a long time. Laws change, attitudes, beliefs, priorities change. What is important now, may not be later.

J1 waiver program started in 1999? Correct me if I wrong. Definitions of institues which can sponsor J1 waiver has changed many times in the past 6 years. Now even private clinics in underserved areas can sponsor waiver! 8 years from now, the scene might change towards the worse or the better. Korea may drop its bomb on washington, you never know. 8 years is a significant chunk in a persons life. Most senior immigrant Physicians who have worked in US for the better part of thier lives are going back to home country (to do their bid :D ). Besides medical proffession is becoming harder in US these days as you have to earn your bread (getting grants, earn your pay in hospitals, or shielding from malpractice as Hadron said).


At the end, J1 or h1b is a personal decission a FMG has to make, mainly based on the choice whether he wants to migrate to US or not.
 
> 1. J1 is a good option for headache less education. It allows
> you to choose the Fellowship of your choice, basically the
> best option if you want fellowship.

Headache-less ? Well, all you do every year is to pay $200 for your extension of sponsorship with ECFMG. The headache part is to return for a visit after you have been in the US for 6 years and you have to explain to the consular officer how many ties to your home country you still have and that you are not going to immigrate.
But you are right, if your mind is set on a fellowship, a J1 opens more options.

> 2. H1b is great if you want to stay in US, doesnt help your education
> though. There are cases of residents changing to J1 from H1b to
> accept fellowships!!

otoh A friend of the family did IM on H1b at a large community place. He worked as a hospitalist for 2 years at a middle tier medical school, got his GC and is heading for a cardiology fellowship at one of the top places by the end of the month. So, while other fellows have to moonlight to service their student debt, he lives in the nice condo he bought accross from the hospital from the capital he accumulated during his hospitalist time (single, frugal lifestyle).

> 3. Fellowship waiver are hard to get, so if you do a J1 waiver expect
> to do Primary care.. for 5 years? Thats lame.

Its actually only 3 years. The 5 year gig is if you want to get your GC through a 'national interest waiver for physicians'. If you get your GC through labor certification from either your waiver employer or a prospective non-hpsa employer, you can get the GC after 3 years 3 months or so.

> 4. You can always come back after 2 years of home commitment,
> again on H1B. Then 6-7 years later get your green card.

Knew some pediatricians who did that. Finished residency, went to india for 2 years and returned on H1b ! for their fellowship.

> A long process, wont help if you want to get your parents to US,
> as Hadron said.

Well, even when you are a citizen, it takes a while to get your folks over (some indian docs move to the US just so they DON'T have their in-laws or parents around, but that is a different story).

> 5. Two year home commitment will be hard on your social obligations
> in US, with friends and family in US, you will not want to do you

Well, that depends a bit on what type of person you are:
- If you and your wife are rather tradiional folks who are not terribly keen on getting involved in the community here, then going back is easy (some people actually look forward to a couple of years back home. If you are Sikh and wearing a turban is your thing, the US hasn't been such a hospitable country for the past 3 years and 8 months or so.)
- If on the other hand, your kids are in school here, your wife is the president of the parent teacher association and from your combined fellowship income you have bought a nice 3 bedroom with triple garage in the burbs (it's called 'the american dream'), going back could be real hardship on the entire family.
I have met indian folks of both types. The ones who are just so glad to turn their backs on the US the day their fellowship is done, and the others who are more american than the locals after 5-6 years (including the 45lbs weight gain :))


> 6. 8-10 year is a long time. Laws change, attitudes, beliefs,
> priorities change. What is important now, may not be later.

Exactly. And that is why you want to have as many options as possible. Immigration wise, the H1b will give you more options. Training and education wise, the J1.

(I think we should frame this thread and issue it in book form, it's so nice)
 
Hadron, I sent you a Personal Message.

So, there is a 200$ ECFMG fee for J1.. Thats news.

When did J1 program start?
When did ECFMG begin sponsoring J1 visa?
What are the options for a j1 resident if his fellowship is not confirmed on PGY2? Chief Resident PGY4?
Is it possible to change from J1 clinical to J1 research. Guess no. Any other way to linger on and get fellowship?
 
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