Is this Perm Ad?

L

lohith

Registered Users (C)
I just came across in hotjobs and wondering that it's ad for PERM since it's quoting immigration law -8 CFR

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POSITION DESCRIPTION: Under limited supervision, design, develop, implement and test computer software products based on company's desktop application distribution technology. Provide and coordinate technical assistance during sales cycle. May provide demonstrations, presentations and leading technical discussions. Demonstrate company products and services to all levels within an organization. Provide technical support on pre-sales calls. Provide configuration and customization support. Provide site analysis and assessment. Provide installation and deployment support. Identify, diagnose, and resolve customer needs and develop technical software solutions. Integrate, design and deploy company software solutions and manager large-scale technical projects. Interpret business strategies and objectives to support implementation of company products assist in the attainment of regions revenue goals. May be assigned to various projects that utilize skills.

EDUCATIONAL REQUIREMENTS: Bachelors degree or equivalent* in CS, Engineering, or related field

*Will accept educational equivalency evaluation prepared by qualified evaluation service or in accordance with 8 CFR 214.2(h)(4)(iii)(D).
SPECIAL REQUIREMENTS: Bachelors degree or equivalent* in CS, Engineering, or related field and four years of experience in the job offered or 4 years of related software engineering experience. Experience must include 1) Java; 2) C; 3) LDAP; 4) UML; and 5) Windows.

Must be available to work on projects at unanticipated sites throughout the United States.
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lohith - thanks very much for the posting. It's very helpful. How did u find it? I am looking desperately for good job descriptions for PERM.

Anybody else??
 
PERM job descriptions

I don't believe there are any "perferct" PERM job descriptions. Use the one the employer normally would use for a similar position. Just make sure there are very clear details under "requirements" and "responsibilities" so there is no confusion what the job entails and how to qualify as the requirement section will be the basis for disqualifying applicants in the recruitment report.
 
EB2 /PERM Ad: Search job search sites with keywords " CFR 214 "
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Description:

Design, develop, test, front-end of product development for mobile audio/electrical products.
Help define industry standards to facilitate product development.
Work on issues that impact design/selling success or address future concepts, products or technologies.
Liaise with engineers internally and externally to further develop products.
POSITION REQUIREMENTS: Bachelor's degree or equivalent* in Electrical Engineering and 8 years as an Electrical Engineer or as an Engineering Executive.


Experience must include
1) test engineering,
2) project management,
3) wireless technology,
) noise reduction technologies
5) development of mobile headsets.

*Will accept educational equivalency evaluation prepared by a qualified evaluation service or in accordance with 8 CFR Section 214.2(h)(4)(iii)(D).
 
Bjorn - a few questions for you:

1. I know you can't use on-the-job experiece - but can you put skills u acquired while working for the company for "job requirements"? The problem is that let's say you put BS as a requirement for the job, and you get resumes who have it, how can you disqualify them?

2. What are grounds for disqualification besides degree?
 
Perm

If anyone knows about PERM rules, which time is best to apply under PERM.
Is EB2 or EB3 a real issue. I have MS + 3 yrs experience and my employer can apply through EB3 only because of salary constraints.
Is it a good thing to apply now, and that too in EB3?
Let me know any good information about EB3
Regards
ReddyKC
 
Skills etc.

If skills are acquired during the job, that must be completed on the PERM form. Than the company must consider whether these skills can rwsonable be acquired through trainig another applicant. DOL has not defined reasonable, so that's up to your company to justify. Besides a degree, experience and specific skills can be used to disqualify candidates, but only if the skills cannot be acquired through a reasonable amount of training. For example, if a skill is Microsoft Word, that skill can be acquired through a reasonable amount of training over a couple of days and can therefore NOT be used to disqualify candidates. What is reasonable is a judgement call of your employer, but should probably be more than a few days.
 
Job description for PERM

I have a question as for how the job description should be.

My lawyer says the job description should be very very specific and absolutely unique so that very few applicants will meet the criteria.

On the other hand, I have read posts that say that the job description should be very generic, something the description in the first post matches.

Now which one has a better likelihood of going thru? To me it makes sense that one must specify "unique" requirements. But I may be wrong.

Any comments?

Thanks,
-msh626
 
PERM job description

The more unique your job description and advertisement is, the more it will get the attention of the DOL and the more the chance of a denial or redoing the recruitment. A unique job description will be considered teilor making to your resue, something DOL has made very clear is not acceptable and will get denied. Make a fairly generic one but throw in a couple of more unique requirements. DOL is comparing the job description with the appropriate ONET job, and if they differ too much, DOL will have some problems with that. If the job description is to the point of you being the only person in the world qualifying, DOL will deny it.
 
msh626 said:
I have a question as for how the job description should be.

My lawyer says the job description should be very very specific and absolutely unique so that very few applicants will meet the criteria.

On the other hand, I have read posts that say that the job description should be very generic, something the description in the first post matches.

Now which one has a better likelihood of going thru? To me it makes sense that one must specify "unique" requirements. But I may be wrong.

Any comments?

Thanks,
-msh626
Click to expand...
Bjorn - thanks for the reply. Please let me know your thoughts on the following

1. I am in the process of writing my job description and requirements. My lawyer wants to play by the book and is saying that he wants the exact job description and reqmts for the position. So I am trying to to write a blob that includes a job description and job requirements. In the job description, I will list my duties (and make it very generic), and in the requirements I intend to list skills that will disqualify other BS candidates. Is this the right approach?

In the job requirements area:
2. Can I/should I include skills that I gained with my current employer that *cannot be acquired* in a reasonable period of time?

3. Can I include skills such as "experience with dealing with offshore/geographically remote teams in USA and India"?

4. Can I list skills acquired in internships?

5. Can I list skills acquired from coursework?

6. Suppose I list a very very specific skill (in the job requirements section only) that I acquired at a previous employer such as IBM DB2 modeling, can that cause suspicion with the DOL ?

7. Will the DOL ask for proof of skills acquired at previous companies? So, suppose the job reqmts list skill XXX, and we disqualify candidates based on not having skill XXX, will the DOL ask for proof that I have skill XXX?

Thanks!
 
msh626 said:
I have a question as for how the job description should be.

My lawyer says the job description should be very very specific and absolutely unique so that very few applicants will meet the criteria.

On the other hand, I have read posts that say that the job description should be very generic, something the description in the first post matches.

Now which one has a better likelihood of going thru? To me it makes sense that one must specify "unique" requirements. But I may be wrong.

Any comments?

Thanks,
-msh626
Click to expand...
Bjorn - thanks for the reply. Please let me know your thoughts on the following

1. I am in the process of writing my job description and requirements. My lawyer wants to play by the book and is saying that he wants the exact job description and reqmts for the position. So I am trying to to write a blob that includes a job description and job requirements. In the job description, I will list my duties (and make it very generic), and in the requirements I intend to list skills that will disqualify other BS candidates. Is this the right approach?

In the job requirements area:
2. Can I/should I include skills that I gained with my current employer that *cannot be acquired* in a reasonable period of time?

3. Can I include skills such as "experience with dealing with offshore/geographically remote teams in USA and India"?

4. Can I list skills acquired in internships?

5. Can I list skills acquired from coursework?

6. Suppose I list a very very specific skill (in the job requirements section only) that I acquired at a previous employer such as IBM DB2 modeling, can that cause suspicion with the DOL ?

7. Will the DOL ask for proof of skills acquired at previous companies? So, suppose the job reqmts list skill XXX, and we disqualify candidates based on not having skill XXX, will the DOL ask for proof that I have skill XXX? As in, will I need a letter from the previous company stating that I worked on this particular project in which I worked with skill XXX (besides the work letter)?

Thanks!
 
See inserts.

wildscenebob said:
Bjorn - thanks for the reply. Please let me know your thoughts on the following

1. I am in the process of writing my job description and requirements. My lawyer wants to play by the book and is saying that he wants the exact job description and reqmts for the position. So I am trying to to write a blob that includes a job description and job requirements. In the job description, I will list my duties (and make it very generic), and in the requirements I intend to list skills that will disqualify other BS candidates. Is this the right approach?

Probably. I am no lawyer, but have read a lot of DOL published material on the issue. Be very specific but the requirements have to be reasonable for the job. If experience is required, you can be pretty specific in terms of lengths of experience and in what specifi areas.

In the job requirements area:
2. Can I/should I include skills that I gained with my current employer that *cannot be acquired* in a reasonable period of time?

Yes, if the skills are critical to the job, they should be included.The job description should describe expectations and requirements, and if there are certain skills required to perform the job, they should probably be included.

3. Can I include skills such as "experience with dealing with offshore/geographically remote teams in USA and India"?

I would dprobably not mention the specific countries, but perhaps mention "experience with remote .... within the US and globally..."

4. Can I list skills acquired in internships?

I'm not sure. I cannot recall reading anything on this. There is nothing on this in the PERM regulations. On the PERM application, it only says "experience" with no definition of it. Therefore, I would included as it is an experience.

5. Can I list skills acquired from coursework?

Yes, skills gained from course work are obviously skills. For example, if you are a programmer and have gained skills in for example Java from college course work, Java is then a skill you possess.

6. Suppose I list a very very specific skill (in the job requirements section only) that I acquired at a previous employer such as IBM DB2 modeling, can that cause suspicion with the DOL ?

My guess is that any proprietary model is too specific as it pretty much rules out any non-company applicants. Perhaps rewrite it to make it sound morte generic to the lay person by just mentioning DB2 modeling in a technology environment... Avoid any reference to specific organizations.

7. Will the DOL ask for proof of skills acquired at previous companies? So, suppose the job reqmts list skill XXX, and we disqualify candidates based on not having skill XXX, will the DOL ask for proof that I have skill XXX?

You have to list your skills on the PERM applications. There is no clear guidance by DOL on how you prove this. To be safe, I would probably gather evidence that I have those skills should you be audited and have to provide that evidence. By disqualifying others lacking evidence of that skill, ensure that you yourself can provide evidence of it.

Thanks!
Click to expand...
 
Bjorn - thanks so much! I searched on google, and it said that "A worker can only include on-the-job experience as part of his/her minimum requirements if the duties are not substantially comparable (i.e. the two positions have duties that are different more than 50% of the time). "

I find the DOL guidance a bit contradictory.
Is *skills acquired with my current employer* and *experience gained with my current employer* the same thing? If so, then I cannot include as part of my job reqmts skills I gained with my current employer?

However, as per your previous post I can include skills that I gained with my current employer that *cannot be acquired* in a reasonable period of time?

Also, I found this info from murthy.com
PERM Does Not Generally Allow for Special Skills
Under current labor certification regulations, employers are allowed to describe special skills they require of employees for performance of their job duties. For example, a software engineer may need to possess knowledge of a particular type of software. DOL has accepted these specific requirements as long as the skills have been normally required to perform satisfactorily in the occupation. Under the proposed PERM regulations employers would only be allowed to list job requirements in terms of the minimum number of years of experience, education, and training to perform the job. Employers would only be able to list any additional skills if a U.S. worker had held the same position within two years of labor certification filing.

So, given the above info, can/should I include skills I gained from my current employer that require more than a "reasonable on-the-job training"?

Also, it says that "employers would only be allowed to list job requirements in terms of the minimum number of years of experience, education, and training to perform the job." What is *training to perform the job*?
 
PERM job requirements

Another quick one:

PERM regs say that "employers would only be allowed to list job requirements in terms of the minimum number of years of experience, education, and training to perform the job."

Can this training be gained with the current petitioning employer (given the fact that the job has been the same throughout the employment - so cannot prove substantially different jobs)?

In other words, can I state in my job requirements that I have skill/training XYZ that I gained with my current employer on the job, and that it is infeasible for the employer to train a US worker in that skill in a reasonable amount of time?
 
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As you said, the experience only counts if it was with different employer or 50% or more different job with current employer. If not, the experience cannot be counted.
 
bjorn said:
As you said, the experience only counts if it was with different employer or 50% or more different job with current employer. If not, the experience cannot be counted.
Click to expand...
Sorry to trouble you Bjorn, but just wanted to make sure:

I CANNOT state in my job requirements that I have skill/training XYZ if I gained that skill with my current employer on the job (AND NOT WITH PREVIOUS EMPLOYER), and that it is infeasible for the employer to train a US worker in that skill in a reasonable amount of time? True or False?
 
wildscenebob said:
Another quick one:

PERM regs say that "employers would only be allowed to list job requirements in terms of the minimum number of years of experience, education, and training to perform the job."

Can this training be gained with the current petitioning employer (given the fact that the job has been the same throughout the employment - so cannot prove substantially different jobs)?

In other words, can I state in my job requirements that I have skill/training XYZ that I gained with my current employer on the job, and that it is infeasible for the employer to train a US worker in that skill in a reasonable amount of time?
Click to expand...

The clause you are adding in the requirement sounds reasonable enough to trigger an audit if not Denial.
 
See inserts.

I CANNOT state in my job requirements that I have skill/training XYZ if I gained that skill with my current employer on the job (AND NOT WITH PREVIOUS EMPLOYER), and that it is infeasible for the employer to train a US worker in that skill in a reasonable amount of time? True or False?

Yes you can, but only if the job you are filing PERM for is at least 50% different from the position you gained those skills from. So, to be safe, work with your employer to ensure that your PERM application position is substantially (50%) different from your current position. Then you are OK to include skills and experience acquired in your current job. The "reasonable amount of training" has NOT been clarified by the DOL, meaning that it is arbitrary. The only example I have found is that Microsoft Word skills cannot be claimed as a skill that CANNOT be acquired through a reasonable amount of training. So, what is a reasonable amount" A couple of weeks? A couple of months? DOL separates "skills" from "experience." For example, a skill is being proficient in Microsoft Excel. Experience is to have worked and used Excel in a business setting for a very specific purpose over a period of time. I don't think anyone knows the answers to some of these quiestions since PERM is so new. The only way to find out is to add special skills, apply for PERM, and see what happens. If denied, take the special skills out and apply again.
 
Special skills

The employer must justify in writing any special skills or experience required for the position in a fashion that satisfies DOL’s “business necessity test.”
First, any special skills or experience the employer requires must be justified in a fashion that satisfies what is known as a “business necessity test.” This test will be more important under PERM. It is satisfied when the employer’s special requirements are reasonable in the context of the employer’s business, and the evidence shows that the special requirements are essential to perform the job’s duties.
 
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