Infighting must stop: peace

calif

Registered Users (C)
Friends,
I see some people who think IV has a wrong approach solving the retrogession issue. They
should be allowed to put forward their views without being attacked(having
fun is different) & yes we all contributed to IV so we need to ensure that IV
is on right path. discussion always leads to better strategy , let us try to
have a consensus on that.

I agree with the objectives IV has put forward & think we shouldn't add more tasks to already ambitious agenda.

Please every one put forward their views about IV and also if something needs to be added or removed:

Thanks,


PS: Keep the discussion civil, having fun is ok .... new Tan you are invited to put another tan and come clear.
 
I strongly agree. I am the first one to reply to nTan's thread "Before U Leap". And so far there is no reply from nTan which is indicates that his argument has no substance.

After that I saw lot of people using the words like suck, freak etc. I ask you think before using any such words - would you have used it had the person was in front of you - especially if the person is Schwarzenegger?

Also, think about your aim. Is your aim to answer the person or ground him? If you do the later, it is higly unlikely that the person would work with you again in future, because you touched his ego. And it is also likely that others reading the thread become hesitant as it is in the human nature to sympathaze weak and grounded.

Also, by spitting out such words, all you are doing is venting your anger. If that is what you want to do, say it out louder and hear it yourself and feel better. But not in public forums.

By using such words, you are damaing your personality, nothing more.

My few thoughts.





calif said:
Friends,
I see some people who think IV has a wrong approach solving the retrogession issue. They
should be allowed to put forward their views without being attacked(having
fun is different) & yes we all contributed to IV so we need to ensure that IV
is on right path. discussion always leads to better strategy , let us try to
have a consensus on that.

I agree with the objectives IV has put forward & think we shouldn't add more tasks to already ambitious agenda.

Please every one put forward their views about IV and also if something needs to be added or removed:

Thanks,


PS: Keep the discussion civil, having fun is ok .... new Tan you are invited to put another tan and come clear.
 
stop trying to get a thread out.....it will go out when it has done its time....no one will stop commenting just because we want it out......and its not going to do more harm because more people will read it....some times i feel u think people are sheeps.....they will get persuaded by every opposing idea......come on guys.....have faith in the intelligence of people to seperate good from the bad themself...
 
Be positive

Techy,
Your post will help, If You do this:

Things IV doing right: You support them.

Things IV doing wrong: must be stopped, reason why they are wrong..how they hurt our cause more than help.

Things You want to be added to IV agenda: & reasons why they should be.

Thanks,
 
calif: let me write my thoughts

things IV doing right.
1. Trying to fight against retrogression.

maybe hiring the lobbyist/counsel is also a good thing depending on how much is being paid and how it is being utilized.


things IV doing bad:

1. very short sighted.......day one all they wanted to do was lobby for some bill which was due in senate/house in 2-3 months......that was an ridiculous notion.....that a group of people with 15k in funds and not more than 30 dedicated member wanted to influence legistlation in usa.

2. they were/are not open to constructive criticism.

3. they believe that they will make a difference in the next 7-8 months....because according to them it will be too late since then it will be election year.

one thing they do not understand is that EB people do have brains...they do have some knowledge of how things work in usa....and that why right now there are not many buyers for IV's methods.

things they should be doing:

1. membership drive ....membership drive ....membership drive ....
if we cannot get atleast 2k members no need to think about fighting.....all that time can be used for self improvement.

2. stop chanting that they can bring in a legislation change....there are hundred other ways EB-retrogressed candidates can help themselves if they were all united

3. long term planning: what if all these bills fail.....what if we totally get ignored and still worse if uscis gets overloaded with illegal immigrants applications....


all in all.....i do not have a silver bullet.....and thats why i promise none....otherwise i would have jumped in and tried to steer in some direction.....

but if we all unite(50k membership).....thats a golden bullet....then we can think of painting usa in our colours....telling every american our story......or creating an alternative to this GC (its like we are here as guest...we want to settle down...but we are not welcome....but we wont give up........imagine if we start creating alternatives.....will that not decrease the supply......maybe they will pay some attention(they may not be able to get more H1 alos since american will not be a land of opportunity anymore....but maybe they will just outsource...but thats great...we all can go back to our home country).

but i have not lost all hopes....there will definitely be a legislation in the next 2-3 years.....it can even happen in the next few months.....but nobody knows for sure....
 
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Thats good

I think I like you not sure what are the right steps ... because I am not truly familiar with US legislative process & unfortunately also is too busy to really understand it.

Let other people also jump in, If they agree with you more than IV...let there be
another organisation, which can provide conditional support to IV if they agree to consensus agenda.

Did You try calling IV guys to check if they are willing to listen...
 
Answers to techy2468 problems with IV

things IV doing bad:

1. very short sighted.......day one all they wanted to do was lobby for some bill which was due in senate/house in 2-3 months......that was an ridiculous notion.....that a group of people with 15k in funds and not more than 30 dedicated member wanted to influence legistlation in usa.

Thats your assumption. We are attacking every bill that we believe can affect us in one way or other. If you look at some of the threads on IV, we are attacking the PACE bill too. Now that the draft draft of the Comprehensive Immigration Bill is out, we are looking at that too.
What is this deal with 30 people with 15K in cash trying to infulence US legislation? a) Every org starts with ONE person. Its only when others start associating with them do they grow. Did you know how many folks started Microsoft? Just 2. Bill Gates and Paul Allen. If you were around when that was happening, I'm sure you would have tried your best to tell the whole world to NOT support Microsoft because 'they are two kids trying to change the world with their parent's money'. What about DELL started by Michael Dell alone? How about Red Cross started by Clara Barton and a few friends (less than 15). Now before you start drooling to start another thread with 'IV is so stupid they compare themselves with Microsoft or Dell' or Red Cross, let me clarify, we do not have any aspirations like that. All we want to do is educate the lawmakers that LEGAL immigrants are suffering.
b) Is it a crime to start with 15K or less? Why can't you appreciate the fact that something has been started instead of just watching from the sidelines?

We are not running this org full time and hence you need to cut us some slack. This has been a learning experience for all of us from learning about the US legal system to hiring a lobbyist. Have you tried starting an organization like this? Do you think its easy to get even 100 members who believe in you? If you think so, why don't you start one. We'll see how it goes. There is more than meets the eye!

2. they were/are not open to constructive criticism.

This is nonsense. Very frankly, I do not believe that YOU of all people should be writing 'constructive' in any of your sentence. Look at the last 20/30 posts of yours, all you have done is spread negativity. Why didn't you just have a simple thread with all your questions and ask for IV to answer them?
Why don't you list your suggestions here and I'll answer them?


3. they believe that they will make a difference in the next 7-8 months....because according to them it will be too late since then it will be election year.

one thing they do not understand is that EB people do have brains...they do have some knowledge of how things work in usa....and that why right now there are not many buyers for IV's methods.

Do you know how many folks are unaware of this? I am not denying that EB people have brains but that does not mean everyone knows everything. We all pay taxes, but how many know that we are supposed to report any and every of our gambling income? I am sure lots of us have gone to Vegas but how many of us have actually report our losses/wins? I had a conversation about Green Cards with a Pulmonary Critical Care Fellow (in medicine this is equivalent to a PhD in engg.) and he did not know even about the three stages of green cards. I had a conversation about Green Cards with a Wharton alumni and senior product manager at a Fortune 50 firm and he had no clue about the steps in Green Card process other than 'it takes 3/4 years'. I consider these two guys way more 'brainier' than most EB2 applicants. Bottomline is there is no relation between brains and awareness of green card process and how the political system works in USA!

Not enough buyers of IV! Thats the most ridiculous thing we have heard. For all the hatred you have for IV, you have to confess that we have achieved a lot in last 50 days. 900+ members and tons of volunteers. And all this by word of mouth. Try doing this yourself and we'll see how far you get (and we promise, we will not start threads of negativity for 'techy2468's org')


things they should be doing:

1. membership drive ....membership drive ....membership drive ....
if we cannot get atleast 2k members no need to think about fighting.....all that time can be used for self improvement.

We are 50% there. We already have 900+ registered members and lots of folks who are lurkers. Again, there is always baby steps initially. Since I do not think you got the point (in spite of being smart with brains) on another thread I'll repeat it again
Hypothetically if there are 50,000 naysayers like you who say they will join IV only if there are 5000 members, we will never reach that figure inspite of having potentially 50K members ready to jump in. On the other hand, if all decide to join disregarding the current membership count, we woud get off to a great start.

And take my word, we will get to 2K members sooner than you can imagine


2. stop chanting that they can bring in a legislation change....there are hundred other ways EB-retrogressed candidates can help themselves if they were all united

Like? This goes back to your 'constructive criticism' allegation. Why don't you actually provide alternatives for anything you do not like and we will look at that!

3. long term planning: what if all these bills fail.....what if we totally get ignored and still worse if uscis gets overloaded with illegal immigrants applications....

You are indeed very smart. This statement translates to...'lets forget all the immigration stuff going on right now, lets plan for next 10 years'. There are issues at hand right now! Lets make sure we do not get forgotten this time atleast! We can worry about what happens in future later! Lets focus all are efforts to these current happening for gods sake else we'll miss the bus. If we do, we'll have lots of time (years in fact) to mull over what we want to do!


all in all.....i do not have a silver bullet.....and thats why i promise none....otherwise i would have jumped in and tried to steer in some direction.....

but if we all unite(50k membership).....thats a golden bullet....then we can think of painting usa in our colours....telling every american our story......or creating an alternative to this GC (its like we are here as guest...we want to settle down...but we are not welcome....but we wont give up........imagine if we start creating alternatives.....will that not decrease the supply......maybe they will pay some attention(they may not be able to get more H1 alos since american will not be a land of opportunity anymore....but maybe they will just outsource...but thats great...we all can go back to our home country).

Please start a new org. Try and get more than 900 members in 50 days and we'll accept defeat gladly. Stop pandering to everyone's fears. Prove yourself a man who walks the walk too.

but i have not lost all hopes....there will definitely be a legislation in the next 2-3 years.....it can even happen in the next few months.....but nobody knows for sure....

Good for you. And let me say you are doing a great job in making sure that some of the IV members keep on wasting their time on your drivel.
This is my challenge to you. Stop wasting everyone's time. Start your own org. That way you can plan long term, get to 50K members in 1 month and because it will be started with you, they will be used to constructive criticism (pun intended). Go go go....30 days to go. I am waiting for your next thread which announces starting of a new org with a promise to get 5K members in a month.....
 
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ragz keep your cool

win or defeat is going to happen in cogress .. not among us. If You are IV
member .. You have real bad attitude, You are in for lobby If You can break
like this in wake of criticim you need to learn, anti-immigration groups are going to do it more.. much more & on top of it they have opposite agenda unlike techy.

Trt to address his problems by remaining cool, He should also understand that you guys have come a long way in setting up all this.

But maturity is expected from all of you guys... and "BS" is always relative,
so no need to bring up.

If You want to build solid orgnisation learn to be patient, positive,calm and respectful even if you see any negativity from members.

PS : IF YOU CAN'T WIN 20-30K PEOPLE WHO HAVE SAME AGENDA & VESTED INTREST AS YOURS(END OF RETROGESSION) , FORGET ABOUT LOBBYING UNITED STATES SENATE.
 
ragz4u....i am almost done talking with IV guys.....i wish they can read my post carefully....i am just not interested in a shouting match....or to prove i am good or IV is bad...

i am just trying to say that short term ambitious goals are not practical....they can become fruitful....but the probability is less than 5%........just as the probability of every startup becoming a microsoft or dell or even hotmail.com......its less than .001%.
 
to add more......i am not interested in starting a org.....its no indian political scene...

i would be more interested in researching why people are not joining IV...or any other actvity....

i think i know some reasons for this absence by retrogressed people....

I may be wrong, but this is my hypothesis:

1. people before 2003-EB2-EB3 india/china: they think that they are going to get the green card anyway.....in 1-2 years...and they know that any legislation can take that much time to be implemented....hence they are not interested in any activity.
they are willing to wait it out from the sideline.

2. people after 2004 June EB3-EB2 ind/chin : they do not have much hope since they believe it can take anywhere between 4-5 years, hence they are planning alternatives to usa GC.

infact i am not very comfortable with above hypothesis.

the other factors maybe:

60% of us are very busy with work and life that we do not have time or energy left to do any activity.

many of us are scared to get involved in these kind of activity.

plain laziness etc..
 
We do not want to get into an argument game with you

techy2468 said:
ragz4u....i am almost done talking with IV guys.....i wish they can read my post carefully....i am just not interested in a shouting match....or to prove i am good or IV is bad...

i am just trying to say that short term ambitious goals are not practical....they can become fruitful....but the probability is less than 5%........just as the probability of every startup becoming a microsoft or dell or even hotmail.com......its less than .001%.

Do not forget that 5% or 0.001% is still greater than ZERO. We are not asking anyone to gamble their life on success of IV. We just ask for volunteers and a miniscule amount from everyone who believes in us.

You have changed your song everytime...
1) First it was that IV is not adding your stuff to the agenda
2) Once that was cleared, you stated IV is illegal because of lobbying
3) Once proved that we are not doing anything illegal, you alleged that the number of volunteers was less than 5K so nothing can be done
4) Then your new song was IV members do not take constructive criticism
5) Then it was that we are too emotional
6) Next it was that we do not have a long term plan
7) Finally now you are considering our chances to be just 5% or less...

Dude, make up your mind....

You seem to be convinced that IV is headed for failure. Please start an org of your own so that it can avoid all the pitfalls of IV.

And you are almost done talking to IV! We are DONE (not almost done) reasoning with you. We started IV about 50 days ago and it has 900 members. I am setting a count for you from today. You now have 50 days to do something more meaningful than what we have achieved. Stop IV bashing and start a new org. Your membership count today is 1 (just you). Your time starts NOW....
 
This is not directed towards anyone in particular but more responding to this general kind of questions that we're getting here- "Why is IV not doing this? Whis IV not doing that?".

It is very easy to come up with ideas, after all most of us are highly educated and we pride in our analytical skills. But many of us also tend to have big egos. "I gave my beautiful idea abut these suckers at IV cannot seem to take that up as their biggest priority and start working on it right away."

I just have one sentence for all of that - "Don't be an armchair general." Fight with the troops, understand the ground realities, gain their respect and then you can become the general. Before you can comment on lobbying, have you done any lobbying? Have you researched about lobbyists? Have you seen the successes and failures of similar lobbying? Have you spoken to any one who has employed a lobbyist before? If you have not done any of this, you just come and put in a vague statement like lobbying is not good.

Let me just take an examples - "Get 50K in membership first and then you can paint America in whatever color you want". Do you know how difficult it is to get membership? Why would some one become our member unless they are convinced that we are capable of doing something? If we don't do anything why will people continue to contribute to us? But hey wait as per your circular logic, we're supposed to wait till we get the 50K membership.

If you do want to give feedback, let it be constructive and let it be specific.
We have definitely listened to constructive criticism and we will definitely do so in future too. Instead of giving a vague suggestion like increase your membership, if your suggestion had been - "IV can increase membership by doing this, this and this", we would have preferred that. Even better why don't you work on the suggestion yourself. For e.g a number of our members have gone out by themselves to many organizations and convinced them to distribute

Also don't misquote figures to further your argument. For e.g. nTan stated that a full 70% of all labor certificates are bogus. Give me a break. Or for that matter techy2468 quoting that we have collected only 15K when clearly we have stated in our website that we have more than 32K. techy 2468, you had specifically raised doubts about the amount of funds raised by our organization earlier and I had even sent you the screen shot of our balance statement. If you still keep misquoting us, I am forced to believe that you have some ulterior motives.

At the end of the day we get so many suggestions every day. It is not humanely possible to act on all suggestions. So we prioritize the suggestions and act on the ones that we feel that will get us the most benefit.

If we don't act on it or have clearly come up with a reason why we are not doing something, let it go or continue convincing us. By villifying us, you are only proving that you're in this only to stroke your ego. We're a non-profit organization, not a good samaritan trying to boost every one's ego by doing whatever they demand of us.

If you are still not happy about us, you're more than welcome to start your organization. Only then will you really feel the pain of what we're going through.
 
they were/are not open to constructive criticism.

techy2468,

I have not seen you give even one single constructive point. It is either some confused rambling or some crazy criticism. Tell something constructive and then criticize them for not doing it.

calif- don't you think that the title is misleading. You say no infighting but you yourself seem biased. You don't criticize all crappy points put up by techy2468, only the ones by ragz4u
 
I agree end_of_wait

But the aim is to get people's issues resolved and make them support IV or our cause by other means.

As IV has decided to take the lead they need to strategize that they have to ensure people's concerns are addressed and ensure no one is isolated. I can understand their may be some cynical people around(techy doesn't seem to be one.. to be frank), handle them with good strategy and politeness.

Building organization requires patience and willingness to hear others... say no
if need be, but in right way.

people including myself has contributed to IV not techy, so I want more professional response from them...
 
calif said:
But the aim is to get people's issues resolved and make them support IV or our cause by other means.

As IV has decided to take the lead they need to strategize that they have to ensure people's concerns are addressed and ensure no one is isolated. I can understand their may be some cynical people around(techy doesn't seem to be one.. to be frank), handle them with good strategy and politeness.

Building organization requires patience and willingness to hear others... say no
if need be, but in right way.

people including myself has contributed to IV not techy, so I want more professional response from them...

calif,

techy is not cynical. He is just confused. He does not whether he should support IV or not. He does not know whether lobbying is good or not. He does not whether people should form an organization or not. The list goes on. And he himself states so.

The thing, is no one knows the answer to everything. But when I don't know something, I stay quiet. I don't come here and keep rambling just because I want to be heard.

people including myself has contributed to IV not techy, so I want more professional response from them...

Response for what? The confused ramblings of techy? I have not seen anything useful from any one here. I will be happier if they were working on lobbying or raising the membership.

This sense of entitlement is another thing that I have seen in our community- "I gave IV money so they have to answer every whim and fancy of mine." Remember you gave them money to do something useful not to keep answering some stupid questions raised here.
 
I think i put it in wrong words

sorry if my words meant "sense of entitlement",People who established IV has done much more than me & many other people, so will be very wrong for us to have that or show it in that way.

What I wanted to say was that
"every member should be allowed to give ideas howsoever crazy "... if IV thinks it is not worth they should let people know it the better way then they did...we won't be having a organisation per say, If people in IV daring other to come up with parallel organisation or go on personal attacks...

But hopefully they learn from mistakes a find a common ground to take as many people with them as possible... and frankly they are doing great job , But they
need to estabilish better relationships with members of this or other forums.
 
let me set some rcords straight.

I GIVE ALL CREDITS TO IV LEADERS.....they are like the indian freedom fighters...trying to do something against all odds....hats off to them for trying this.

but that does not mean....i am going to idolize and worship their every move...

but the most disappointing thing so far has been that the leaders do not have much dipolmacy....they react with vile at every critcism.....this has happened in the past, yahoo techworkers group and ISNAmerica (these two will not let you post opposing ideas on their forum)....they were all like this....

but to tell you the fact....i do have faith that IV will mature over time...since they will learn by experience....about whats going to work and what is not.....and we may never know....IV may go on to become the voice of immigrants in america forever.....

but what about some relief for me in the next 1-2 years......i cannot expect much from anyone except that we may get some relief automatically just like s.1932 was introduced....there will be many more bills....and not all will be rejected....
 
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techy2468 said:
let me set some rcords straight.

I GIVE ALL CREDITS TO IV LEADERS.....they are like the indian freedom fighters...trying to do something against all odds....hats off to them for trying this.

but that does not mean....i am going to idolize and worship their every move...

but the most disappointing thing so far has been that the leaders do not have much dipolmacy....they react with vile at every critcism.....this has happened in the past, yahoo techworkers group and ISNAmerica (these two will not let you post opposing ideas on their forum)....they were all like this....

but to tell you the fact....i do have faith that IV will mature over time...since they will learn by experience....about whats going to work and what is not.....and we may never know....IV may go on to become the voice of immigrants in america forever.....

but what about some relief for me in the next 1-2 years......i cannot expect much from anyone except that we may get some relief automatically just like s.1932 was introduced....there will be many more bills....and not all will be rejected....

Techy, look at it from the IV leaders' point of view. They are trying to achieve something at great personal cost. Some of them are spending 6-8 hrs every day on this issue. And every day, there is someone who questions their integrity, their competence, their goals - why did you pick this goal, can you add another goal - etc. Add to it the people who ask questions in the IV forum and expect IV admins to answer - is a MS an advanced degree, is a PhD an advanced degree, can you tell me where in Specter's bill it says that advanced degree+3 years experience people are exempt from the cap - etc. People have got to start helping themselves. IV founders are not at everyone's beck and call. And the worst part is some questioner's haven't even contributed money to IV, will never contribute money to IV, but still expect answers.
 
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