Immigration Samachar - 03

GCStrat, it has created fear because individuals are out of law, not because the bill is harsh in its entirety, am I correct ? The bill itself requests border security, workplace enforcement. I don't see anywhere in the bill sending people to jail right away, confiscation of belongs, etc.
http://www.numbersusa.com/PDFs/Sensenbrennerbordercomprehensivesbs.pdf

Again, the felony provision is the item that I agree that was considered harsh, but Sensenbrenner himself agree to remove it. Then the Democrats voted against that removal proposal, apparently to attempt to make Republicans look bad.

It is very simple. If people doesn't want to be impacted by the bill, just sell belongs, pack the bags and leave. People who came here illegally already has made the money here, they have sent their kids to schools, learned English, etc. I am in this country for an amazing seven years now. I have property here, I have an American son going to school. What happens with you and me if they put a denial to our I-485 ? We have to leave and I am concious of that. This idea that one who has been here for a long time cannot leave is balloney.
 
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You misundersand me ...

marlon2006 said:
HR 4437 is probably the type of law that exists in your own country. I don't think there is any political ploy there. I live in a community which clearly has been invaded by illegal aliens. In the past people used to go to a country illegally - I don't care where - and lay low, work, do your things and be quiet about it. Here in my community, as far as you can imagine from the South borders, illegals are bringing their entire family tree. They celebrate weddings on wide open parks, go to schools. I know one of them who is applying for a scholarship at a community college. They spread the word to their family, friends, neighbours in South America. The next thing you see is a whole new family arriving in my church in 3 weeks. Tell me, how long do you think any country can support this ? The illegals themselves are very naive to do that. They should be smarter and keep the 'pie' to themselves and not bring others that way. The problem is that from talking to them they think they can go to a country and literally do whatever they want. Often they are uneducated people, they can't even understand basic laws. They have exposed themselves too much and can win big time or lose big time in this game.

In my country the army could well put few rounds of 7.62mm on someone's head if you try to cross it illegally.

marlon2006,

I totally understand what you are saying. Illegal immigration is not a good thing for the US or for us legals and this HR 4437 bill should have been passed a LONG time ago. The US let illegal immigration get out of hand over the past few decades (for its own labor needs) and now they are trying to correct years and years of mistakes by passing laws and bills that have virtually no chance of solving the problem at hand. All the things we see today are knee jerk reactions instead of well planned policies to correct the situation.

I don't see any good solution to this problem and I see legals suffering endlessly.

regards,

saras
 
Sure, I understand you.
I think one military guy wrote the other at USCongress.org and said the right thing:either way this relationship will terminate in a traumatic way, because it has been a very long relationship. It is like terminating a troubled marriage now. Someone will suffer.

saras76 said:
marlon2006,

I totally understand what you are saying. Illegal immigration is not a good thing for the US or for us legals and this HR 4437 bill should have been passed a LONG time ago. The US let illegal immigration get out of hand over the past few decades (for its own labor needs) and now they are trying to correct years and years of mistakes by passing laws and bills that have virtually no chance of solving the problem at hand. All the things we see today are knee jerk reactions instead of well planned policies to correct the situation.

I don't see any good solution to this problem and I see legals suffering endlessly.

regards,

saras
 
Wikipedia

Marlon2006

According to Wikipedia, the "felon" charges for aiding illegal still exists. Also, there are other "interesting" provisions (See below - some items have been highlighted).

Regards
GCStrat :)

=====================================
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HR_4437

House Resolution 4437 (The Border Protection, Antiterrorism, and Illegal Immigration Control Act of 2005) was passed by the United States House of Representatives on December 16, 2005 by a vote of 239 to 182. It is also known as the "Sensenbrenner Bill," for its sponsor in the House of Representatives, Wisconsin Republican Jim Sensenbrenner. This bill is currently under consideration by the United States Senate, after amendment by the Senate Judiciary Committee. H.R. 4437 was the catalyst for the 2006 U.S. immigrant rights protests and was the first piece of legislation passed by a house of Congress in the United States immigration debate.

Contents [hide]
1 Provisions
1.1 Prohibit Aid to Illegal Immigrants
2 Debate
3 Response
4 Sources and notes
5 External links



[edit]
Provisions
The bill as passed by the House of Representatives contains the following provisions, among others:[1] [2]

Requires up to 700 miles (1120 km) of fence along the US-Mexican border at points with the highest number of immigrant illegal crossings. (House Amendment 648, authored by Duncan Hunter (R-CA52)

Requires the federal government to take custody of illegal aliens detained by local authorities. This would end the practice of "catch and release", where federal officials sometimes instruct local law enforcement to release detained illegal aliens because resources to prosecute them are not available. It also reimburses local agencies in the 29 states along the border for costs related to detaining illegal aliens. (Section 607)

Mandates employers to verify workers' legal status through electronic means, phased in over several years. Also requires reports to be sent to Congress one and two years after implementation to ensure that it is being used. (Title VII)

Eliminates the Diversity Immigrant Visa (also known as Green Card Lottery) program. (House Amendment 650, authored by Bob Goodlatte)

Prohibits grants to federal, state, or local government agencies that enact or maintain a sanctuary policy. (House Amendment 659, authored by Thomas Tancredo) (withdrawn 12/16/2005 by unanimous consent)

Incorporates satellite communications between immigration enforcement officials. (House Amendment 638, authored by John Carter)

Requires all United States Border Patrol uniforms to be made in the U.S. to avoid forgeries. (House Amendment 641, authored by Rick Renzi)

Institutes a timeline for deployment of US-VISIT to all land-based checkpoints. (House Amendment 642, authored by Michael Castle)

Requires the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) to report to Congress on the number of OTMs (Other Than Mexicans) apprehended and deported and the number of those from states that sponsor terror. (Section 401)

Formalizes Congressional condemnation of rapes by smugglers along the border and urges Mexico to take immediate action to prevent them. (House Amendment 647, authored by Ginny Brown-Waite)

All illegals, before being deported, must pay a fine of $3,000 if they agree to leave voluntarily but do not adhere to the terms of their agreement. The grace period for voluntary departure is shortened to 60 days.

Requires DHS to conduct a study on the potential for border fencing on the US-Canada border.

Sets the minimum sentence for fraudulent documents at 10 years, fines, or both, with tougher sentencing in cases of aiding drug trafficking and terrorism.

Establishes a Fraudulent Documents Center within DHS.

Increases penalties for aggravated felonies and various frauds, including marriage fraud and document fraud.

Establishes an 18-month deadline for DHS to control the border, with a progress report due one year after enactment of the legislation.

Requires criminal record, terrorist watch list clearance, and fraudulent document checks for any alien before being granted legal immigration status.

Reimburses states aiding in immigration enforcement.

Housing of illegals will be considered a felony and subject to no less than 3 years in prison.

Allows deportation of any illegal alien convicted of driving under the influence (DUI). Adds human trafficking and human smuggling to the money-laundering statute.

Increases penalties for employing illegal aliens to $7,500 for first time offenses, $15,000 for second offenses, and $40,000 for all subsequent offenses.

Refusing to accept immigrants from countries which delay or refuse to accept the foreign country's citizens deported from the United States (Section 404)
[edit]

Prohibit Aid to Illegal Immigrants
It would be a crime to "assist" an illegal immigrant to "remain in the United States... knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such person is an alien who lacks lawful authority to reside in or remain in the United States".[1] Furthermore, the prison term applicable to an illegal immigrant, would also be applicable to anyone who "knowingly aids or assists" that immigrant "to reenter the United States".[2] While these clauses may be intended only to target smugglers, as written it includes any charity, church or neighbor of an illegal alien, who aids the illegal alien to remain in the U.S., for example by providing food, clothing or shelter.


Laws currently on the books already prohibit "aiding and abetting" illegal aliens. This bill, however, is specifically intended to increase enforcement against human smugglers.[citation needed]

[edit]
Debate

The House version of the bill is opposed by a variety of migrant, social justice, humanitarian, and religious organizations, and other groups such as proponents of La Raza. Among the criticisms raised by opposition groups are that the proposed legislation will unfairly and harshly affect over 11 million illegal immigrants and those associated with them, that it includes measures which create substantial barriers to community policing, and that it represents the most draconian anti-immigration bill in nearly a century.

When discussing this bill it is important to note that the bill does not specify one particular group over any other; passage of the bill would affect all illegal aliens living within the US. The fact that most of the protests to date have come largely from Mexican and Hispanic based population centers stems from the fact that Mexicans are most likely the largest illegal-immigrant ethnic group in the country.

Detractors say the bill includes measures that will infringe on the human rights of asylum seekers by stripping important due process protections, criminalizing status over which they may have no control, and dramatically limiting their access to essential services. It would also redefine undocumented illegal immigrants as felons, and punish anyone guilty of providing them assistance. It also would create several new mandatory minimum penalties for a variety of offenses, including some that would expose humanitarian workers, public schoolteachers, church workers, and others whose only object is to provide relief and aid to five-year mandatory minimum prison sentences.

On the opposite side of the issue it is argued that living illegally in the United States is a crime, and that this bill merely aims at recementing US immigration codes that have for so long been neglected. Supporters of the bill argue that it will increase border security by providing more US Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents to the border, thereby helping to curtail any possible entry to the country by terrorists, and that the passage of this bill may help curtail drug trafficking and human trafficking from Mexico to the US by depriving smugglers of sources and contacts on the US side of the border.

[edit]
Response

Main article: 2006 U.S. immigration reform protests

Millions of individuals, both illegal immigrants and supportive legal residents, have protested the legislation, claiming that it could break up families and result in mass deportation. Their leaders have called for Congress to pass a bill that allows individuals currently not authorized to be present in the country to receive legal status or amnesty. The United States Senate has various bills working through its committee that have struck some of the provisions from H.R. 4437, such as the parts declaring illegal presence to be a felony and criminalizing aid to illegal alliens. In addition, many cities and counties have taken formal positions opposing the bill. Labor unions have also opposed the bill, though there is division among the labor movement as to whether to support a guest worker program, or amnesty to those currently present, two provisions currently in some of the Senate bills.

The Minuteman Project has taken a position supporting the bill as a first step to controlling the border. Additionally, many U.S. citizens have grown their support against illegal immigrants for their demand of amnesty or legal status.

Monday May 1, 2006 was "a day without immigrants", where illegal immigrants and those who supported them were encouraged to abstain from buying anything and to skip work or school. Its intent was to hurt the American economy and prove to the U.S. citizens how much they depend on illegal immigrants. It resulted in at least one million marchers nationwide, although some sources estimate more than two million people marched. Marches were held in Los Angeles, New York, Chicago and even in smaller cities in Pennsylvania, Virginia, and North Carolina. Crowds in Los Angeles were estimated at 600,000 for the two boycott marches. At the second largest protest in Chicago an estimated 400,000 people marched to show their support for an immigration reform
 
No. Wikipedia does not list updates.

GCstrat, I have been listening this specific debate regarding dropping the felony provision. Read below the transcripts from Lou Dobbs last night, May 3rd 2006. I couldn't find the transcript in which Sen. Sensenbrenner himself said he agreed to remove the felony charges. On the radio the other day, they said again that Democrats did not want to vote in favor of removing such language just to attempt to make republicans look bad.

Therefore if you take out the felony language, the rest of this bill you pasted there seems pretty reasonable. I don't see any radical things there at all. Do you ?

I think that if people pass the amnesty/guest-worker, more militia groups will surface. Here is something:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060504/ap_on_re_us/arizona_immigration

"....
HERNANDEZ: They are human beings, and it turns them into -- it turns them into felons. It is currently a civil -- it's a civil transgression. You are going to turn it into a felony.

DOBBS: No, no, they have already said point blank they are not going to do that.
...."

gcstrat said:
Marlon2006

According to Wikipedia, the "felon" charges for aiding illegal still exists. Also, there are other "interesting" provisions (See below - some items have been highlighted).

Regards
GCStrat :)
 
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one more attempt....

Marlon2006

I presume THOMAS would have the most updated information:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:HR04437:@@@L&summ2=m&

Go through the summary.

Some sections one can have trouble with are:

Sec 122
Sec 201 - changes definition of "aggravated felony"
Sec 202 (4) - provides EXTRATERRITORIAL juridistion
Sec 203 (so if you are illegal in USA even trying to seek asylum, you are a criminal)
Sec 207 (2) - unrestricted access to any information with any federal agency. So, if an AMERICAN citizen files for his/her relatives, his information is no longer protected under privacy laws.
Sec 208 (7) - precludes court intervention (i.e. no access to courts)
Sec 211 - Amends criminal law to include DISTRIBUTION of fraudulent immigrant documentation (i.e. FEDEX - you are in trouble)
Sec 212 - Attorney General has DISCRETIONARY authority (it can be intepreted to mean he/she can over-ride court decisions)
Sec 214 - gives PRESUMPTIVE powers to DHS (no proof required)
Sec 308 - provides Attorney General powers to deny Department of Justice assistances to federal, state or local agencies
Sec 402 - MANDATORY detention (even for asylum seekers)
Sec 606
Title VII - Employers as NEW law enforcement officers
Sec 801 - No access to courts.
Sec 802 - no judicial review for visa revocations.
Sec 806 - Nonimmigrant applicants are WAIVING all rights
Sec 808 - Prohibits courts from dispensing economic awards, unless Attorney General indicates. (Attorney General to have more powers than courts)


General theme - Executive branch has full powers with no or limited judicial oversight. That's troubling.

Regards,

GCStrat :)
 
Again, my understanding is that senators agreed to remove the felony charges. Other analysis such as put there as FEDEX - I am not sure if that is the case. I can't comment on that.



gcstrat said:
Marlon2006

I presume THOMAS would have the most updated information:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:HR04437:@@@L&summ2=m&

Go through the summary.

Some sections one can have trouble with are:

Sec 122
Sec 201 - changes definition of "aggravated felony"
Sec 202 (4) - provides EXTRATERRITORIAL juridistion
Sec 203 (so if you are illegal in USA even trying to seek asylum, you are a criminal)
Sec 207 (2) - unrestricted access to any information with any federal agency. So, if an AMERICAN citizen files for his/her relatives, his information is no longer protected under privacy laws.
Sec 208 (7) - precludes court intervention (i.e. no access to courts)
Sec 211 - Amends criminal law to include DISTRIBUTION of fraudulent immigrant documentation (i.e. FEDEX - you are in trouble)
Sec 212 - Attorney General has DISCRETIONARY authority (it can be intepreted to mean he/she can over-ride court decisions)
Sec 214 - gives PRESUMPTIVE powers to DHS (no proof required)
Sec 308 - provides Attorney General powers to deny Department of Justice assistances to federal, state or local agencies
Sec 402 - MANDATORY detention (even for asylum seekers)
Sec 606
Title VII - Employers as NEW law enforcement officers
Sec 801 - No access to courts.
Sec 802 - no judicial review for visa revocations.
Sec 806 - Nonimmigrant applicants are WAIVING all rights
Sec 808 - Prohibits courts from dispensing economic awards, unless Attorney General indicates. (Attorney General to have more powers than courts)


General theme - Executive branch has full powers with no or limited judicial oversight. That's troubling.

Regards,

GCStrat :)
 
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