Getting a TN visa for Software Engineering with a Mechanical Engineering degree?

J

jarmve

New Member
Hi everyone. I've been doing alot of research on this topic and have been unable to find a conclusive answer. Here's a little about me:
  • Currently studying Mechanical Engineering in Canada
  • About to start an internship at a big tech company in San Franciso as a Software Engineer
  • Have previous experience as a Software Engineer for a big tech company in California. By the time of my graduation, I will have about 16 months of internship experience as a Software Engineer/Software Developer
  • I anticipate graduating with an offer for Software Engineering from a US company, probably a return offer
From the research I've done, I've seen conflicting opinions. Some people say that it's impossible, some people say that for TN you just need any bachelors degree and you're good to go. I'm wondering, for my specific scenario, having already proven that I can do the job + having the companies immigration lawyers supporting me (I read something about an "I-129"? not entirely sure what that is), will I be able to work in the states full time once I graduate as a Software Engineer? I'm not even sure if TN is the only option.

Thanks for any advice.
 
So, once more, experience does not count for TN in engineering.

As long as the job description is for an engineer, and not a programmer, you should be fine. Just make sure you aske for an TN in the engineering category. Everyone uses software, The debate is whether non-engineers can get a truly software engineering job; not your problem.

Your other questions are pretty basic; perhaps a little more research, even on this forum, is warranted.
 
nelsona said:
So, once more, experience does not count for TN in engineering.

As long as the job description is for an engineer, and not a programmer, you should be fine. Just make sure you aske for an TN in the engineering category. Everyone uses software, The debate is whether non-engineers can get a truly software engineering job; not your problem.

Your other questions are pretty basic; perhaps a little more research, even on this forum, is warranted.
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Most things I have read suggest that people get the CSA category for Software Engineering. I guess what you're saying here is because I will have an engineering degree, I can easily use the "Engineer" category, but won't the border officers see that Mechanical has nothing to do with what my offer letter will say (besides the job title having the word "Engineer" in it)? Arguing that Mechanical Engineers still use some software seems like a very weak argument to me
 
jarmve said:
Most things I have read suggest that people get the CSA category for Software Engineering. I guess what you're saying here is because I will have an engineering degree, I can easily use the "Engineer" category, but won't the border officers see that Mechanical has nothing to do with what my offer letter will say (besides the job title having the word "Engineer" in it)? Arguing that Mechanical Engineers still use some software seems like a very weak argument to me
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why not switch your discipline to EE or CE instead of continuing the ME path? ME is pretty irrelevant to software, or computing in general.
 
I have ME degree and easily got Software engineering job --- because my job involved engineering, not CSA.
 
nelsona said:
I have ME degree and easily got Software engineering job --- because my job involved engineering, not CSA.
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Interesting, I did find a thread on a different forum yesterday that suggested if the job title had the word "Engineer" in it, then having any engineering degree was good enough for the "Engineer" TN category. I guess I just expect the border agents to read the offer letter and see that it has nothing to do with the degree?
 
The job title is meaningless, the job description must describe engineering tasks to get an engineering TN, which you would qualify for, as opposed to a CSA, which you might not.
 
isn't that basically a grey area? software engineering basically doesn't involve any characteristics of traditional engineering and it really something distinct. Software Engineer is a liberally used term these days with no agreed upon standard for what the role must involve.
nelsona said:
The job title is meaningless, the job description must describe engineering tasks to get an engineering TN, which you would qualify for, as opposed to a CSA, which you might not.
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My point is the job title is meaningless. You will need to rely on the honest job description your sponsor lists in your letter.
Then it will be up to the officer to (a) figure the the job in is engineering, or (b) that the job is CSA, but your education specifics (since your degree doesn't match) meet the CSA requirements. Otherwise, you will be denied.
 
nelsona said:
My point is the job title is meaningless. You will need to rely on the honest job description your sponsor lists in your letter.
Then it will be up to the officer to (a) figure the the job in is engineering, or (b) that the job is CSA, but your education specifics (since your degree doesn't match) meet the CSA requirements. Otherwise, you will be denied.
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Do you think the size of the company matters? For example if I were to go to, say, Facebook, they probably have world-class immigration lawyers. I read something about an I-129 where I don't even need to talk to anyone at the border?
 
jarmve said:
Do you think the size of the company matters? For example if I were to go to, say, Facebook, they probably have world-class immigration lawyers. I read something about an I-129 where I don't even need to talk to anyone at the border?
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I think it's more a matter of whether or not the company has experience with hiring workers on TN. Based on what Nelson said, this is basically a keyword game and the CBP officers are just searching for keywords on the job offer letter and your degree/transcript rather than actual qualifications. Which makes sense in a way considering CBP officers would have no qualifications to judge academic credentials in any more detail than that.
 
nelsona said:
My point is the job title is meaningless. You will need to rely on the honest job description your sponsor lists in your letter.
Then it will be up to the officer to (a) figure the the job in is engineering, or (b) that the job is CSA, but your education specifics (since your degree doesn't match) meet the CSA requirements. Otherwise, you will be denied.
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That may be true, but you're operating under the assumption that a CBP officer knows what is engineering and what isn't, this is highly doubtful. This imo is somewhat akin to the role of a judge, the judge's job isn't to evaluate based on the law, the judge's job is to evaluate based on the law/case law that the lawyers presents to him/her. Theres no agreed upon standard on which a software engineer is even defined, so all you can really do is put a bunch of relevant keywords into the description that the CBP officer is likely to have seen before.

Also, considering that you stated that you have a ME degree and that somehow qualifies you for a TN visa for SWE, it's rather disingenuous that you also claim CS degree should not qualify for SWE. There is no Engineering discipline that is more qualified for SWE than a CS degree, other than Computer Engineering and to some extent EE, every other discipline has basically nothing to do with software and is not a valid qualification in any sense on the basis of that degree alone. To claim that any Engineering degree qualifies for an Engineering job is ridiculous, thats like saying a civil engineer is qualified to design ASICs and a EE is qualified to design dams and bridges, and by the same argument, a psychiatrist is qualified to perform brain surgery on the basis of being a MD. This is just playing word games and hoping the CBP officer agrees.
 
And that changes my response how?
Remember that the petitioner has a job offer, so the sponsor will have determined if the candidate was ridiculous or not to have applied for an EE job with a civil degree.

We are talking about job-qualified candidates here. But job-qualified and TN-qualified are not always the same. It still comes down to (a) or (b) or failure, pure and simple.
 
nelsona said:
And that changes my response how?
Remember that the petitioner has a job offer, so the sponsor will have determined if the candidate was ridiculous or not to have applied for an EE job with a civil degree.

We are talking about job-qualified candidates here. But job-qualified and TN-qualified are not always the same. It still comes down to (a) or (b) or failure, pure and simple.
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it makes all the difference. because there is no official statement what the degree must be to qualify for the visa. If one applies the strictest definition possible then the only degree that would qualify for a engineer tn visa for a role of software engineering would be a degree that says software engineering or computer engineering, every other degree should be automatically disqualified. the fact that one has a degree in another discipline of engineering is irrelevant, it cannot qualify for a visa when it does not match the role. There is no such thing as 'An engineering degree for an engineering job" thats just a rubbish argument. If you argue that one can relax the qualifying degree, then any degree that is traditional accepted by the employer for the role, such as computer science, applied and computational mathematics and computational physics should all qualify for the visa.
 
The degree must be "related" to the TN category and job. That is the official statement. You just said that a CE going for a EE job was ridiculous. So I guess, in your mind there is a limit to what is "related"; same for the officer. S/he will have to (a) figure the the job in is engineering, or (b) that the job is CSA, but your education specifics (since your degree doesn't match) meet the CSA requirements. Otherwise, you will be denied.
 
nelsona said:
The degree must be "related" to the TN category and job. That is the official statement. You just said that a CE going for a EE job was ridiculous. So I guess, in your mind there is a limit to what is "related"; same for the officer. S/he will have to (a) figure the the job in is engineering, or (b) that the job is CSA, but your education specifics (since your degree doesn't match) meet the CSA requirements. Otherwise, you will be denied.
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exactly. I'm saying that under the circumstance that the job fits in one of the TN occupational categories, a degree that is typically accepted in that profession should be able to obtain a tn visa. you stated that a ME degree should qualify for the engineering tn category for a software engineering job, yet repeatedly claim cs is not engineering and therefore should be denied under the same category, this is what I find puzzling. If we go by the definition of related degree, it need not matter whether or not it is an engineering degree at all, only whether or not it is an accepted degree in the profession, unless the occupation required a specific license.
 
acerbits said:
exactly. I'm saying that under the circumstance that the job fits in one of the TN occupational categories, a degree that is typically accepted in that profession should be able to obtain a tn visa. you stated that a ME degree should qualify for the engineering tn category for a software engineering job, yet repeatedly claim cs is not engineering and therefore should be denied under the same category, this is what I find puzzling. If we go by the definition of related degree, it need not matter whether or not it is an engineering degree at all, only whether or not it is an accepted degree in the profession, unless the occupation required a specific license.
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I think nelsona is saying that a CS degree cannot get a TN for Engineering for a Software Engineering job, but you can still get a TN for CSA for a Software Engineering job (job title is irrelevant).

Although I thought that CSA means no coding allowed, which will definitely not be the case for any entry level Software Engineering job.
 
jarmve said:
I think nelsona is saying that a CS degree cannot get a TN for Engineering for a Software Engineering job, but you can still get a TN for CSA for a Software Engineering job (job title is irrelevant).

Although I thought that CSA means no coding allowed, which will definitely not be the case for any entry level Software Engineering job.
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I understand what he's saying. I'm claiming that what he is saying is false. If someone with an irrelevant engineering discipline can obtain a TN visa for a software engineering job then a CS degree absolutely should be able to, to claim otherwise is hypocritical. As far as the law is concerned and what appears to be standard practice, the prime qualifier for the visa under any tn profession category is the job description itself. Meaning that a job which qualifies for a TN professional category is eligible for the visa, the second 'if condition' if you will, is wether or not your degree is a qualifier for the job, not the category. Which means that any job that qualifies for one of the professional categories for which you possess a typically accepted academic credentials at the bachelors level or above should qualify. There is no official statement which demands that someone must possess and engineering degree to obtain a TN under the engineering category, there is plenty of evidence to support this assertion.
 
One cannot get an Engineering job with just any engineering degree, first the sponsor has to agree, and the officer \has to agree that the job is closely related to the degree.

I would not agree that there is PLENTY of evidence that non-engineers are getting Engineering TNs. There may be a lot of non-engineers that are getting jobs titled Software engineer, but are actually described and recognized by the officer as CSA (or other TN category) jobs, and the candidate has CSA (or other credentials.

It is indeed sad that Software folks have co-opted the engineering title,. Like the old jokes about sanitation engineers, domestic engineers, train engineers. Unfortunately, the guilds have not fought very strenuously over the years to protect their brand, laying down criteria for its use.
 
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