for CR- Can the entry stamp be on Reentry permit

goelm

New Member
I fininshed 2.5 years on my continuous residence in Feb 2005 and left for India with an intention of making a trip every six months. This was so I can apply for citizenship 2.5 years later.

Meanwhile I also obtained a re-entry permit just in case I am not able to come every six months.

I made a 15 day trip to USA in August 2005, however the officer at POE demanded if I had the "green" travel document (reentry permit), and put US entry stamp on it instead of my passport.

To apply for US citizenship, is it necessary to have all the entry stamps on the passport or can the stamps on Travel document be used to establish minimum 6 month continuous residence?

I am planning another six monthly trip in February 2006 and was wondering if I have already lost my CR or could I still go every six months.

Regards

NG
 
so does that mean I can present my travel document at POE without any problem. Is it not necessary to present the travel document when applying for citizenship and during the interview. Can having a travel document be used as an argument of not intending to maintain a continous document.

Mukul
 
Folks - What I gathered from reading various threads from JoeF and other regular members is that you must maintain permanent stay in the US to maintain GC and eligibilty for citizenship. However after reading Goelm's posting I am confused -

Q:Can one maintain GC and eligibilty of citizenship if one
- lives in the US for 30 months after getting GC
- and then visits US for few weeks every six months.
- files tax returns, maintains residence by paying rent etc.

Your input is greatly apprecited.
 
If the reentry permit does not change it, than what is the point of getting it? That is, why would the U.S. government issue a document that (according to your interpretation) says to the GC holder that you can stay outside the country for two years, but we still expect you to be living here. Huh? It's kinda hard to be outside the U.S. for two years and still say that you live in the U.S.

I would think that the purpose of the REP is to say to the government “look I have this great job overseas or I need to take care of my elderly parents in my home country and that I may be away for upto two years. Since I am going to be away for so long, I am going to ship my personal belongings and sell my house in the U.S. However it is my intention to come back as this is only a temporary assignment.” So you apply for the REP and if the REP is granted, what the government is saying is “we understand your situation, you have our permission to remain outside the U.S. for upto two years, and as long as you keep paying your taxes, don’t to do illegal activities, you are welcome to come back.” To suggest that even with an REP you still need to maintain a house or that your family stay behind is silly. The REP does not require this. In fact, the whole point of REP is so you don’t have to prove your ties to the U.S. when you re-enter.

Not convinced? Then read this for a more legalistic interpretation

http://uscis.gov/lpbin/lpext.dll/inserts/int/int-49611-1/int-62194?f=templates&fn=document-frame.htm
 
Of course the absence has to be temporary. The reentry permit (REP) is only issued if USCIS is convinced that the applicant will return within two years to resume the permanent residency. Whether you have a two year contract or an indefinite contract is also not all that critical in my view (after all one can keep renewing a two year contract just as easily as return within two years on a indefinite contract). It is the *intent to return* that matters to USCIS which is not hard to show when one applies for the REP (especially the first one)

My point, however, is that with a REP and for the two years that it is valid, there is no need to maintain “physical” ties such as home, bank accounts, phone connection etc. The fact that one has an REP is good enough. This is why I had pointed to “Matter of Guiot” as an example, where the applicant’s REP was approved even though the INS was fully aware that the person was not going to maintain any “physical” ties.

The reason I say this is because I have read posts on this forum which advice against moving one’s belongings to other countries during their temporary stay abroad. I find this advice to be overly cautious and unnecessary. The only requirement for maintaining the GC while abroad on an REP is that a person continues to pay taxes and not get in trouble with the law. If you commit a crime and the government finds out about it, the REP will be useless (it is in this sense the REP is not a guarantee for entry)

Finally, if you are blessed with enough wealth to be able to maintain a house in the U.S. during your temporary two year stay abroad, then more power to you. But many are not and they should not be a disadvantaged because of it.

If you think my interpretation of the law is wrong, I would like to hear about it. Frankly, I have yet to hear of a case where someone was denied entry and their GC taken away based solely on having abandoned their residence and in spite of having a valid REP during their entry. It just does not seem to happen.
 
As I have stated in my previous posts, you still need to pay your taxes and maintain the intention of returning during those two years. However, since it is hard to know of people's intention, anyone that presents an REP after a trip abroad is presumed to be maintianing their intention to return.

As for why anyone would want to move thier personal effects, consider that many companies offer relocation assistance to thier employees. In such instances it is does not make sense to maintian a house in the U.S. while abroad. It would be more costly to keep a fully furnished empty house in the U.S. and buy furniture for the new house abroad whcih is what you are suggesting.

Again, if you have the resources to maintain a house, car, husband and a dog while you are away for two years on the REP, that is your choice. All I am saying is that this is not necessary.
 
Wow.

I thought that temporary trip on reentry permit when sb is admissable otherwise would NEVER guarantee reentry and they can start removal proceedings based on abondonment. Because the most important were ties to the US like family in the US, belongings, taxes etc. Is that changing now?

JoeF - you make money argument about storage - but if you look more carefully then you will see:
- Storage in a relatively small unit where you can put a mattress is about $70/month + TAX
- For 2 years - this will be about $1800.
- Depending what you own - it may or may not make sense to store stuff. I could easily imagine even a relatively rich person who was on H1B previously- made even a mill - but never invested a dollar in furniture - slept on an old mattress and had an old couch there with TV in a rented apartment. Then you could try to store all that stuff that would be worth $300 and pay $1800 just to be able to show ties to the US. But doesn't make sense from economic point of view.
- Even if your electrical appliance does not fit into European/Asian plugs - you simply buy a converter - not a biggie - Sears sells them for $15.
- So from a common sense standpoint it might or might not make sense to store things here when you are going on a 2 year temporary trip out of the US.

What is more important is not the common sense I was led to believe on this forum. What matters is the whim of the judge, immigration climate and that has nothing to do with your reentry permit and temporary trip. And this is why you need to put up with a theater and not make decisions based on common sense but rather based on trying to put up a show where you are creating "artificial ties to the US".

Maybe I am wrong?

I am not a lawyer and this is never legal advice.
 
Obviously that would all depend how much is your stereo and how much is your tv. It also depends on what your lifestyle is etc. I own a home but I do not own a TV - I just think it is a waste of time. But there are people who would think this is not mainstream. Radio is really inexpensive (Mine is worth $20 and I am not a poor person) - you can buy one for $100 - a used one for $50 - not worth storing it. Better to give it to charity.

My friend for example has very little furniture because he rents all of his furniture all the time - he has been doing it for the past 5 years. He is a US citizen though but I can imagine sb else doing it. So it all depends on particular circumstances.

In any case it seems that now people are suggesting to use common sense. Try to store things that make sense, keep credit cards (that actually makes a lot of sense because it will be a hassle to apply for them again when you get back from a temp trip), maintain bank accounts (that also makes sense because it will be a hassle to do start from scratch when you get back), keep in touch with friends, file taxes, renew drivers licence, keep mailing address in the US and if needed do whatever makes sense. Most of all make the trip really temporary and keep that intention.

What is worrying though is that many threads in the past imply that this is not the case. And temp trip + reentry do not imply that you will not be deemed to have abondoned your residence. And you should almost create artificial ties to the US trying to prove that you are a resident.

This thread is finally suggesting otherwise.

This is not a legal advice and I am not a lawyer obviously. I am trying to learn it myself and it is very vague in many respects.
 
I beg to differ. First of all a two year stay abroad is, by its very nature, an extended absence. Mr. Ron Gotcher's statment is therefore contradictory.

Secondly, the whole purpose of the REP is to show that the holder is returning from a temporary stay abroad. Since the abadonment issue arises when POE officer suspects that the trip abroad was not temporary, having a REP relieves the holder of convincing the officer that the trip was indeed temporary. The Foriegn Affairs Manual related to this issue is actually very explicit and states "In the absence of contrary evidence, the Department presumes that the application for reentry permit prior to departure is prima facie evidence of intent to retain LPR status." So if you have an REP then it is very unlikely that you will be suspected of abadonment by the POE officer (you may, of course, be questioned about other issues).

I have yet to hear of a single case where a person was put in removal proceeding on the basis of abandoning their LPR status and in spite of having a valid REP. It just does not happen. (Yes I am aware of cases were people lost thier LPR status years after using REP, but that is different matter as they alway tried to enter the country after the REP had expired.)
 
Actually I thought that JoeF suggested otherwise.

If you have a reentry permit you just do not need an SB-1 visa - that's all. But you can get questioned at the port of entry, you can be deemed to have abondoned your status, it is up to you to prove that you still have the LPR status.

So therefore you should make every effort to maintain ties to the US. If you don't you might be screwed.

Also - you have to realize you are at a whim of an immigration official. There is a due dilligence process with appeals, courts etc. But it is all very expensive, painful etc.

I think you also have to prove with REP that you wanted to return to the US for your entire trip. That is hard to do and this is one of the many ways you can get deported. Ongoing ties help. Lots of people give up their fight at the airport when they just get sent back home.

I am not a lawyer. This is no advice for anybody. I am learning this stuff on my own.
 
I never said or implied that the issuance of an REP requires you to stay abroad for an extended period. That is non-sense. What I find contradictory in Mr. Gotcher’s statement is that he implies that with the REP one can stay outside the country for upto two years but the trip itself cannot be of an extended period. Most people would characterize a two year absence as an extended absence.

My main objection is the interpretation that the REP only acts to extend the allowed absence for a GC holder from one year to two. It certainly does that, but more importantly it is proof that the holder of the REP never intended to abandon their residence. I have already given you the explicit language of the FAM (http://foia.state.gov/masterdocs/09FAM/0942022N.PDF) which says exactly that (9 FAM 42.22 N2.2 LPR Possessing Valid Reentry Permit).

Also note that under certain circumstances the USCIS issues REPs that are valid for only one year. That is, if you have already been issued an REP twice previously, your third one will only be valid for one year. In such a case, the interpretation that REP allows one to stay abroad for more than a year is no longer valid but rather that the absence of less than a year is presumed have been temporary and the holder never intended to abandon their U.S. residence.

Furthermore the back of the REP and the 8 CFR clearly imply that the holder of the REP is an individual that is returning from temporary overseas trip. Nowhere is it stated that reentry permit is simply extending the period of one’s allowed absence. By issuing the REP, the government is basically saying to the REP holder that that upon your return we will consider your trip to have been of a temporary nature. Since the trip was a “pre-authorized” temporary trip, the government assumes that you never intended to abandon your LPR status. Under this scenario, the question of physical ties never can arise and the its up to the individual if they want to maintain a house, car, boat, lover and a dog for the period they are away (whether it is 23 days or 23 months, it does not matter.) There is nothing in the law to suggest that one has to maintain such ties while on a REP.

Now, you ask well why wouldn’t anyone want to maintain ties, especially physical ones? There are number of scenarios, consider

1) The beneficiary of the DV lottery initially comes to the U.S., applies for an REP and leaves soon after. There may be many reasons for them to return (for example, their kids are benefiting from a good and free education at home which will take another two years to finish). Under this case, the REP holder does not have any ties to the U.S. (after all they never lived here), but that does not disadvantage them when they show up two years down the road with their REP.

2) A person gets transferred by their company to its overseas operation or they get hired by a foreign company to work overseas. The employer pays for all relocation expenses and promises to relocate the employee back at the end of the contract. This individual decides to sell their house and ship all their belongings, in which case they also end up having no physical ties with the U.S. They may continue to maintain a bank account and credit card, but that is the extent of their ties to the U.S. Since they will be returning back on an REP, they can be confident that they cannot be accused of abandonment.


Of course in both these scenarios, I am assuming that the intention of both such individuals is to return to the U.S. at the end of the two year validity of the REP and the application for the REP was made in good faith. Furthermore, I am assuming that they will pay taxes—the only specific requirement in the law even if one has an REP. The REP is issued only to those individuals if the government is convinced that the applicant will not abandon their LPR.

Recall from my earlier post the example of the individual where the INS issued the REP even though they knew very well that the applicant would not maintain their physical ties. In fact that case sets the precedence for all those who want to completely pack up and leave for two years and later return on an REP. I submit to you that it will be nearly impossible for any POE officer to accuse one of abandonment even if they knew that the holder has no physical ties. Again, I have yet to hear of a single case where people’s green cards are taken away even though they enter on a valid REP.

Finally to JoeF, you can believe whoever you like. I, for one, have done my own research on this issue including consulting with (pricey) lawyers myself. I don’t claim that I have found a definitive answer and that is why I had posted my comment to seek further insights from others who may have experiences to share. This area of immigration law is admittedly murky, so let’s try to get the most correct, updated and complete information that all can benefit from.
 
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