Experience with modified oath

J

ju58

Registered Users (C)
I am planning - haven't filed my N400 yet - to request a modified oath because I am not willing to "bear arms" - religious reasons.

I could hardly find any experience with this process - has anybody successfully gone through this process and has it been difficult? I understand I need to attach a statement to my N400 - how much do I need to write and/or submit?

Thanks.

JU58
 
ju58,
before everyone starts jumping into conclusions can you tell us what your d.o is.
also if you are prepared for a delayed oath not just modified oath you can definitely try and you will definitely win.
There is no reason for you to lie,if you dont want to take up arms then tell them.They cannot deny your application just because you do not want to take arms.

query

ju58 said:
I am planning - haven't filed my N400 yet - to request a modified oath because I am not willing to "bear arms" - religious reasons.

I could hardly find any experience with this process - has anybody successfully gone through this process and has it been difficult? I understand I need to attach a statement to my N400 - how much do I need to write and/or submit?

Thanks.

JU58
Click to expand...
 
problem2006 said:
ju58,
before everyone starts jumping into conclusions can you tell us what your d.o is.
also if you are prepared for a delayed oath not just modified oath you can definitely try and you will definitely win.
There is no reason for you to lie,if you dont want to take up arms then tell them.They cannot deny your application just because you do not want to take arms.

query
Click to expand...

I have not filed my application. Reading the thread posted above was not that encouraging - so are there some people here in this forum that had some success?

JU58
 
well,
let us put it in a more optimistic way>>>
i have never heard a case get rejected for a applicant not willing to take up arms(religious reason).
infact if u go through vai patels thread i have givena link from n400 manual...where it clearly states tht modified oath is a definite option for people not willing to take arms as they will be asked to perform non combat duties...
only problem is it willl get delayed,but i see no reason why it has to get denied.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
http://www.uscis.gov/lpbin/lpext.dll/inserts/afm_redacted/afm-95-redacted-491-1/afm-9

http://www.uscis.gov/lpbin/lpext.dll/inserts/afm_redacted/afm-95-redacted-491-1/afm-9

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Two areas in the N-400, the modified oath and Selective Service, pertain to attachment; review them before conducting the examination:



• Modified Oath. Before you begin the examination, review the questions on the N-400 addressing the applicant’s allegiance to the United States. Most applicants will check "Yes" to all of these questions. In some cases, however, an applicant will check "No" to these questions, indicating that he or she is unwilling to bear arms on behalf of the United States or is unwilling to perform noncombatant services in the armed forces of the United States.



An applicant who cannot promise to bear arms or perform noncombatant services in the armed forces of the United States because of religious training and belief may be allowed to take a modified oath. If an applicant has checked "No" to any of these questions, discuss this issue with him or her during the examination. Also, the applicant may have to provide documentation to establish eligibility for the modified oath. To determine whether an applicant is eligible for a modified oath, see Chapter 73.7. [See also 8 CFR 316.11 and sections 316(a)(3) and 337 of the Act.]
__________________
 
"An applicant ... may be allowed to take a modified oath. "

it actually said *may*, not *will*. so just from the above wording, it does sound like they *can* (not *will*) refuse your application if you refuse to bear arms, which actually is incorrect.

so here the INS is in written defiance and direct violation of the laws of this country that it is supposed to uphold.
 
well according to qili's may's and junes....
http://www.uscis.gov/lpbin/lpext.dl...d-12145?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0
>>
(2) Military Service under Certain Specified Conditions. Section 329 of the Act establishes another class of persons who may be exempt from the “lawfully admitted for permanent residence” requirement, on the basis of active duty service in the United States Armed Forces during specified periods of hostilities. Under that section, any person who, while an alien or non-citizen national of the United States, has served honorably in an active-duty status in the military, air, or naval forces of the United States during:

So according to you and uscis even though a guy has been on active duty may or may not be eligible for naturalization???

http://www.uscis.gov/lpbin/lpext.dll/inserts/afm_redacted/afm-95-redacted-491-1/afm-95-redacted-12145/afm-95-redacted-12219?f=templates&fn=document-frame.htm&2.0>>>

Note: Persons applying under section 316(a) or 319(a) of the Act may file a naturalization application up to 90 days prior to the completion of their required period of residence. (See section 334(a) of the Act)


http://www.uscis.gov/lpbin/lpext.dl...d-12499?f=templates&fn=document-frame.htm&2.0
>>>>>


For example, an applicant may have been a convicted drug dealer prior to November 29, 1990. His or her conviction(s) prior to November 29, 1990, are aggravated felonies pursuant to section 101(a)(43) of the Act. Moreover, while such conviction(s) render him or her removable pursuant per section 237(a)(2)(A)(iii), the District Director has chosen to exercise prosecutorial discretion in his or her case, and has not initiated removal proceedings (see the November 17, 2000 INS memorandum titled Exercising Prosecutorial Discretion for guidance). Nonetheless, if the record obtained during the naturalization application process shows a continued pattern of drug-related or other criminal activity, other negative factors such as lack of steady employment, home life, or conduct generally showing a lack of rehabilitation, the applicant may be found to lack good moral character pursuant to section 101(f) and section 316(e) of the Act, 8 CFR 316.10(a)(2), and possibly 8 CFR 316.10(b)(3)(iii).

And most important of all according to you,a guy who has been a convicted drug peddler in his earlier years and then shows no signs of good moral character by involving in criminal activities can still be deemed as a person with good moral character..

you are right.According to your mays and ifs,no applicant is assured of a naturalization.Infact everyone should be aware of the may's and start putting stuff on the application which pleases the uscis eventhough it is a certain lie.








qili said:
"An applicant ... may be allowed to take a modified oath. "

it actually said *may*, not *will*. so just from the above wording, it does sound like they *can* (not *will*) refuse your application if you refuse to bear arms, which actually is incorrect.

so here the INS is in written defiance and direct violation of the laws of this country that it is supposed to uphold.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
#22 25th March 2006, 08:32 PM
stat
Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 6

I'm sorry, but that is completely wrong advice.

The Supreme Court and the INS have ruled that Conscientious Objectors can become citizens even if it's personal, moral or ethical concerns which prevent them from serving in the armed forces and taking the parts of the oath which say this. The only condition that one must accept is to serve a role of "national importance" should the country call upon you.

Read the link I posted above for more details.
The problem is most INS officers don't know the law surrounding this because MOST INS officers do not encounter people who do not want to take the full oath.


I'm not an attorney. This is just my opinion.

9000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
#29 16th May 2006, 07:11 PM
jeevs007
Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 6

Vaip,

A friend of mine (who is Jain) got a letter from the local Jain Temple about non-voilence and not taking arms etc, and submitted that with the N-400 (and did not check the box where it says "are you willing to take arms for US?"). She was able to breeze through her interview and oath without any problems. You may want to look into that option. Hope this helps.

Jeevs
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

CITZ - The Oath of Allegiance

By taking the oath of allegiance you swear to:
· support the Constitution and obey the laws of the U.S.;
· renounce any foreign allegiance and/or foreign title; and
· bear arms for the Armed Forces of the U.S. or perform services for the government of the U.S. when required.
In exceptional circumstances, where the applicant establishes that they are opposed to any type of service in armed forces based on religious grounds, the INS will permit these applicants to take a modified oath.

The oath of allegiance is:
"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

In some cases, INS allows the oath to be taken without the clauses:

". . .that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by law. . ."

http://www.h1base.com/page.asp?id=82

0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
 
Remember like i said before,i have never heard someone being denied on religious grounds.
Also be prepared for some delays.
 
Thanks for all the good input and advice.

So about the delay - any idea how often this happened?

I am planning to submit evidence with my N400 (personal statement, letter from pastor, fact that I have been accepted as a consciencous objector in my old country for religious reasons and served alternative service there over 20 years ago).

I hope that my whole naturalization can go through within 11 months - since then my oldest son turns 18. So delay is also not exactly what I would like to experience.

Thanks for any input and/or experience in that matter.

JU58
 
Well like you said you have all the documents ready and like u said you are a christian(i am sorry not trying to profile)because the io most probably is a christian she should understand the religious practices very well.Now if you are a hindu/jain we defintely need that extra effort by describing our religion....as not a lot of people believe that there is no obligations for hindus to take arms,thanks to our neighbours.....
i dont see anyreason why it should even be a cause for delay....
 
Thanks query11 for your advice and support. I will post how things went and what happened.

At the end this is all about living in peace.

JU58
 
My expirience with the modified oath

Hello:

I promised to report back on my experience with the modified oath.

In short - everything went well without a problem. I had my interview and oath on Nov 15, 2006, my PD was 7/10/06. The whole interview took about 10 minutes, the IO did not ask any question regarding the modified oath request and just told me to leave the words regarding "bear arms" out when speaking the oath.

I did submit with my application a personal statement, letter from pastor as well as documentation about my conscientious objector status from my old country.

So in summary requesting a modified oath did not at all cause any negative side effects. I wanted to share this experience and would encourage others to request a modified oath if you have an issue with "bearing arms" or other portions of the oath.

Also thanks to all the good advice in this great forum!

JU58
 
Reply to Ju58

JU58-

First off congratulations! for 2 things - 1) standing by your principles 2) completing the interview successfully.

I would like to understand whether as soon as possible as I am planning on sending my N400 form in the next few days.

1. I need to send the letter explaining the need for modified oath along w/ the N400 form or only at the time of interview.

2. Did you check the box in N400 - 'Yes' or 'No' where it asks whether you are willing to bear arms.
3. Did you make any modification on whether you are willing to be available for non combative services.

4. I am a Hindu - so cannot go to a pastor to collect a letter like that. How do I respond in that case. Will that be an issue if I did not have a pastor's letter and had to justify with my letter alone.

Thanks.
 
dilbert30 said:
JU58-

First off congratulations! for 2 things - 1) standing by your principles 2) completing the interview successfully.

I would like to understand whether as soon as possible as I am planning on sending my N400 form in the next few days.

1. I need to send the letter explaining the need for modified oath along w/ the N400 form or only at the time of interview.

2. Did you check the box in N400 - 'Yes' or 'No' where it asks whether you are willing to bear arms.
3. Did you make any modification on whether you are willing to be available for non combative services.

4. I am a Hindu - so cannot go to a pastor to collect a letter like that. How do I respond in that case. Will that be an issue if I did not have a pastor's letter and had to justify with my letter alone.

Thanks.
Click to expand...


Although I am not JU58, I also requested a modified oath. I submitted a statement with my N-400 application and answered "No" to question 36 in part 10. In my case I explained in a statement that as an atheist I am asking to remove the phrase "so help me God" from my oath when I take it.




As I understand, the decision about whether or not to approve a request for a modified oath is made during the interview. So it is at that time that you may need to produce supporting documentation (such as a letter from a representative of your religious congregation) for your request.
 
my mofied oath experience

dilbert30 said:
JU58-

First off congratulations! for 2 things - 1) standing by your principles 2) completing the interview successfully.

I would like to understand whether as soon as possible as I am planning on sending my N400 form in the next few days.

1. I need to send the letter explaining the need for modified oath along w/ the N400 form or only at the time of interview.

2. Did you check the box in N400 - 'Yes' or 'No' where it asks whether you are willing to bear arms.
3. Did you make any modification on whether you are willing to be available for non combative services.

4. I am a Hindu - so cannot go to a pastor to collect a letter like that. How do I respond in that case. Will that be an issue if I did not have a pastor's letter and had to justify with my letter alone.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Re 1: I did send the letter with my N400 application. I may have had more documentation than needed, but I thought that this would not hurt. I think the documentation helped because I was not asked one question.

Re 2: I did check #37 with NO. I should also have checked #37 with NO; the IO did this during the interview.

Re 3: I checked #38 with YES, however, I could probably also have checked it with NO but this was more in line with my alternative service that I did in the past in my old country.

Re 4: I wrote a one page personal statement in which I outlined my personal beliefs supported by actions in the past - in my case alternate service instead of military service in my old country. I also supplied documentation about this. The letter from the pastor primarily just confirmed that I was still involved in a Christian community; however, my church, as well as probably any other church is supporting conscientious objection but is also supporting active military duty.

I know from somebody else who just used as justification the fact that he was a Christian, has been baptized and confirmed. He did not provide any documentation/explanation. He had to answer a few questions during the interview but was accepted.

It alls boils down to your personal belief, therefore a personal statement and explanation is probably the key piece.

I hope this helps and good luck with your application.

JU58
 
mad4gc said:
but i guess you cannot avoid the draft if they ever draft ? :cool:
Click to expand...

Yes that is true - from what I understand the modified oath and the draft are not linked and nobody can expect special treatment based on the modified oath should there be a draft in the US.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top