EB1-OR experiences/suggestions

[fdfd]

You apply to journals with you CV and saying that you interested in working as a referee (of course not mentioning your interest in applying for a GC). Quite often if your CV looks good and you have a good reputation in the scientific community they will accept you as a referee, so overall it is relatively easy to become a referee.
Are the remaining letters all from complete independent scientists (no connections to your bosses etc.)

This is another thing my lawyer differs from Honkman.

My lawyer said I do not need to provide refree experiences IF I APPLIED
FOR IT. It carries near zero importances, she said. So don't bother
to apply for them, she asked. She would be interested ONLY IF I was
INVITED by the journal or by other refrees in the academic associations.

But I do have refree experiences in which I was invited by a major
academic journal in my field, I should add.

If you have time for it, it would not hurt to apply for refree-ing.
But I don't think it carries heavy importances.

 

[fdfd]

Good content and background of the referee is of course important but won't help you too much if it is from your own boss or colleague since it won't prove your international reputation. And therefore independent letters are clearly much more important than those from former colleagues.
.

I disagree with this. The recommendation letter system is a honor
based system. It's based on writter's integrety, confidence and knowledge.

I prepared 4 independent letters from top people in my field.
I thought their letters were stellar. But my lawyer discarded 3 of them
because they lack details of my research and limited confidences.

It would not hurt to try to get independent letters but make sure
you know what the keys are.

The content and writer's competence carry more importance than
whether it's from independent source or not, IMHO and according to
my lawyer.

fdfd

 

[leroythelion]

The content and writer's competence carry more importance than
whether it's from independent source or not, IMHO and according to
my lawyer.

fdfd

Ooooh, the passion of a good debate .

I have to agree with fdfd on this one.

You have to remember that this process is a legal one, and there is no legal requirement for an independent reference. In fact, there have been here cases posted here of approvals with no letters at all. My own process did not include an independant reference. I do think that an independent reference can mean a lot to strengthen a case, but can somebody truly be independent if *I* approached *him* for a letter?

Brian

 

[honkman]

This is another thing my lawyer differs from Honkman.

My lawyer said I do not need to provide refree experiences IF I APPLIED
FOR IT. It carries near zero importances, she said. So don't bother
to apply for them, she asked. She would be interested ONLY IF I was
INVITED by the journal or by other refrees in the academic associations.

But I do have refree experiences in which I was invited by a major
academic journal in my field, I should add.

If you have time for it, it would not hurt to apply for refree-ing.
But I don't think it carries heavy importances.

Apparently you and your lawyers don't have much idea how journals work in regards of referee. (Of course you will tell us now how great you, your company and your lawyers are). Independently if you get invited or apply to act as a referee for a journal you will get the same letter/email requesting your expert opinion. There are indeed even many high ranking journal who are looking for people to apply as referee. Here as one example all journals of the RCS (Royal Chemical Society) look for scientists to apply as referee:

http://www.rsc.org/Publishing/ReSourCe/RefereeGuidelines/RefereesQuestionnaire/

To say by your lawyers that it carries zero importance if you are not invited shows that you and your lawyers obviously haven't a clue how the system of referee works for a lot of journals. I would say the quality of your lawyers wasn't very high and I am glad that I didn't have to rely on them if they don't know even these basic issues that many journals expect people to apply and don't make any difference later on when the editor might give you a letter for the USCIS. And to say "But I don't think it carries heavy importances" is just laughable since it is one of the possible six criteria the USCIS want see for the petition and even one of the easier one. (BTW, writing in capital letters = shouting, doesn't mean that a weak or wrong argument becomes stronger. BS remains BS)

 

[honkman]

I disagree with this. The recommendation letter system is a honor
based system. It's based on writter's integrety, confidence and knowledge.

I prepared 4 independent letters from top people in my field.
I thought their letters were stellar. But my lawyer discarded 3 of them
because they lack details of my research and limited confidences.

It would not hurt to try to get independent letters but make sure
you know what the keys are.

The content and writer's competence carry more importance than
whether it's from independent source or not, IMHO and according to
my lawyer.

fdfd

Here we can go in circles fro days and I will always strongly disagree with fdfd and leroythelion that the content carries more importance than whether it is from an independent source or not (But of course a weakly written recommendation letter won't help you anyway if it is from an indepenedent scientist or your boss). And that is not only my opinion but also that of my lawyer. You can only prove your international reputation as a scientists if you get multiple recommendation letters from different scientists from all over the world. If your boss has a good international reputation and he claims that you are outstanding that doesn 't prove anything since he will always claims this as your boss. If he wouldn't have a good opinion about you wouldn't work in his group and USCIS has argued this way many times on their own webpage.
And just to add for the comment from leroythelion: All my independent scientists were indeed independent that I have never talked or met them before I asked them for their letter. And just asking them for the letter doesn't make them dependent.

 

[Raj1994]

Okay, I dont have the time to read the other posts in this thread. But one way to get good letters from people not directly associated with you is to tell them the following:

"The letters will be read by people who only have a high school or Bachelors degree - and who dont have any background in xxx. The letters are solely for the purpose of immigration and will not be used for direct career or job related purposes. Accordingly, the letters might contain some superlatives. This is not my impression of a recommendaiton letter, but this is what my attorney strongly recommends. I can provide you with a draft, if you prefer, and my resume. I will also need your resume...."

Chances are many of the recommenders are aware of this OR process and are willing to help out. If you have published papers in your field, then they would usually have no problem in helping out. Get a list of 10 people, and send them emails. If they refuse or dont reply, then dont take it personally, and move on till you find 6 or 7 (no definite number here). If all of them reply, then you get to choose which ones to use!

Another possibility is to go through the reviewers comments on your manuscripts (do you still have them). And pick out sentences that praise your work even though other parts of the letter might critisize a bit...

 

[leroythelion]

And just to add for the comment from leroythelion: All my independent scientists were indeed independent that I have never talked or met them before I asked them for their letter. And just asking them for the letter doesn't make them dependent.

I was just postulating. I think you are drinking too much coffee.

I think the bottom line is that there is more than one way to use referees, independent or not. Different lawyers will have different opinions on how this should be done, just like different lawyers will have different opinions on how to sue a company for their clients. This is a LEGAL process and if the petition meets all the LEGAL requirements, it will be approved.

A request for a recommendation from an independent source, IMO, is an indication that the reviewer has a question about the intergrity of the letters. I am not saying this question is justified, but he is just one guy in one office trying to piece together a person's career.

Brian

 

[tony403]

IMHO (H = humble) Honkman sets ridicculous standards for OR. I got approved with 6 pubs, 100 citations, 13 letters (6 were clearly independent, all connected in some way to my former advisor, i.e. former grad students or post docs that I did not overlap with, they are doing really well independently)

I had to use letters for "International Recognition". If you have reviews and extensive citations by groups outside the US, this might suffice.

My advice is to listen to your company lawyers. They should have an exact procedure in place for the company. Mine sure did.

 

[honkman]

IMHO (H = humble) Honkman sets ridicculous standards for OR. I got approved with 6 pubs, 100 citations, 13 letters (6 were clearly independent, all connected in some way to my former advisor, i.e. former grad students or post docs that I did not overlap with, they are doing really well independently)

I had to use letters for "International Recognition". If you have reviews and extensive citations by groups outside the US, this might suffice.

My advice is to listen to your company lawyers. They should have an exact procedure in place for the company. Mine sure did.

These are not my standards but the ones my company lawyer set and overall he did a pretty good job.

 

[fdfd]

One of many ways to get invitations from a journal committee
is obviously via a recommendation from a person who are already
acting as a refree in that journal.

If you do not know anyone who's doing refree in a journal,
do apply for refreeing qualification for a journal as Honkman said.

If your collegues(advisors,commitee members, etc) actively
review research papers for journals, they will recommend you
for reviewing certain papers (this is AFTER you finish PhD,
not one of those you did for papers forwarded from your
advisor when you're a grad student). (**This is a hint about
how to get refree invitations easily without applying for it**)

One should do his/her best to collect evidences for EB-1 OR
qualifications. But one should do the right things, not the
every straw you can grab. I did wasted some time in
unimportant things.

Advices on this board is basically no harm. But everything
varies depending on your situations. My advice is to use
information defnitley after consulting with a good lawyer.

Good luck,
fdfd