EB1-OR experiences/suggestions

[krprasad]

I am planning to file EB1-OR but i am not so sure of my reference letters.

I have around 7 publications (max impact factor 7.5), but the citations are not good, max 7

but i am currently working as Research Associate.

no big awards, just the usual travel awards etc..

but my social skill sucks and hence i do not have good reference letters,
they are mostly from indians
(6 indians, 2 americans, 1 chinese, 1 african)

indians are big shots, but rest are 5-6 years experience people.

I wanted people to share their experiences, on how they got approved or got RFE based on what issue?

this will act like a guiding thread to all new applicants.

one questions about me, Shall i try to get better reference letter and wait(it may take 6months - 1 year) or my profile looks ok and i can go ahead and file my application?

 

[honkman]

I am planning to file EB1-OR but i am not so sure of my reference letters.

I have around 7 publications (max impact factor 7.5), but the citations are not good, max 7

but i am currently working as Research Associate.

no big awards, just the usual travel awards etc..

but my social skill sucks and hence i do not have good reference letters,
they are mostly from indians
(6 indians, 2 americans, 1 chinese, 1 african)

indians are big shots, but rest are 5-6 years experience people.

I wanted people to share their experiences, on how they got approved or got RFE based on what issue?

this will act like a guiding thread to all new applicants.

one questions about me, Shall i try to get better reference letter and wait(it may take 6months - 1 year) or my profile looks ok and i can go ahead and file my application?

If you are Indian than you should definitely get more letters from non-Indians especially high profile guys now. Are all your letters from scientists who have absolutely no connections to you and your bosses ? I would get more letters and try at the same time to work as a referee for journals which will both increase your chances of approval quite a lot, IMO. Get also good letters for your travel awards.

 

[poker_031197]

If you are Indian than you should definitely get more letters from non-Indians especially high profile guys now. Are all your letters from scientists who have absolutely no connections to you and your bosses ? I would get more letters and try at the same time to work as a referee for journals which will both increase your chances of approval quite a lot, IMO. Get also good letters for your travel awards.

if u don't have time which i assume u don't (if ur trying to apply before oct 1 05), then u may not want to submit LOR (talk to good immigration lawyer), u will get RFE and then u can submit LOR --- very very risky, may get deny, that’s why u need good immigration lawyer. i just applied mine without LOR since i can't get all my LOR in time, and my lawyer told me that not to worry and just apply. He told me that i will get RFE, in case of denial i can always appeal and get approval if the reason for denial is not submitting LOR.

Again talk to good immigration lawyer.

 

[krprasad]

poker_031197, sorry i dont believe in Imm lawyer, seen too many times people depending on them and they doing nothing extraordinary to save your case.

i am not in a hurry to file before oct 05.

I am an Indian.

i have a question, how can i "work as a referee for journals", isnt that by invitation only?, i have just 7 publications, just 3 years after my PhD, will journals consider to give me referee work?.

only 2 reference letters are from my bosses, one from my msc professor, and one from another scientist fromt the same lab (you can say joint boss)

 

[honkman]

poker_031197, sorry i dont believe in Imm lawyer, seen too many times people depending on them and they doing nothing extraordinary to save your case.

i am not in a hurry to file before oct 05.

I am an Indian.

i have a question, how can i "work as a referee for journals", isnt that by invitation only?, i have just 7 publications, just 3 years after my PhD, will journals consider to give me referee work?.

only 2 reference letters are from my bosses, one from my msc professor, and one from another scientist fromt the same lab (you can say joint boss)

You apply to journals with you CV and saying that you interested in working as a referee (of course not mentioning your interest in applying for a GC). Quite often if your CV looks good and you have a good reputation in the scientific community they will accept you as a referee, so overall it is relatively easy to become a referee.
Are the remaining letters all from complete independent scientists (no connections to your bosses etc.)

 

[fdfd]

one questions about me, Shall i try to get better reference letter and wait(it may take 6months - 1 year) or my profile looks ok and i can go ahead and file my application?

If you think your other credentials are weak and you want strong
letters, it's worth trying to get better letters.

But I differ a little bit from Honkman's opinion on what the good letter is.
Whether the letter is from independent researcher does not matter much.
Number 1 priority should be whether the refree can write about you and
your research with confidence or not.

I submitted 7 letters and only 1 of them is from a stranger who happens to know my work. I have many people who knows my work (~140 citation,
~100 citation from 1 paper).

6 letters are from people who know my research very well and spent
hundreds of nights to solve a problem together. They can write about
my research contribution in very detail with confidence.

That was the key that my lawyer wanted from the letters and I think
she was dead right. She did not even require more than 5 letters
or any independent letter.

My company has numerous PhD's in my group. They all got approved
with just 5 - 6 letters. Their letters were not even from hot shots.
They just have a few publications with a few citations.

This EB-1 OR thing is for a phD. If you're a PhD (especially from US),
you're supposed to have made outstanding contributions and you're
probably 80-90% qualified for EB-1 OR thing just with the degree.

 

[cbfan]

One way to get idea of people who can write good reference letters for you are people who cite your work. Go through the citiations of your work and see if you find any professor/researcher who have cited your work. Also, try and contact professors who know your advisor professionally/personally and see if they can write letters for you. Believe it or not, a lot of professor sometime or the other are requested for these letters so I think they are mostly quite helpful in writing this letters.

 

[honkman]

If you think your other credentials are weak and you want strong
letters, it's worth trying to get better letters.

But I differ a little bit from Honkman's opinion on what the good letter is.
Whether the letter is from independent researcher does not matter much.
Number 1 priority should be whether the refree can write about you and
your research with confidence or not.

I submitted 7 letters and only 1 of them is from a stranger who happens to know my work. I have many people who knows my work (~140 citation,
~100 citation from 1 paper).

6 letters are from people who know my research very well and spent
hundreds of nights to solve a problem together. They can write about
my research contribution in very detail with confidence.

That was the key that my lawyer wanted from the letters and I think
she was dead right. She did not even require more than 5 letters
or any independent letter.

My company has numerous PhD's in my group. They all got approved
with just 5 - 6 letters. Their letters were not even from hot shots.
They just have a few publications with a few citations.

This EB-1 OR thing is for a phD. If you're a PhD (especially from US),
you're supposed to have made outstanding contributions and you're
probably 80-90% qualified for EB-1 OR thing just with the degree.

Completely disagree with this statement. It might have been worked with you but that was IMO a lot of luck. There are enough case studies on the USCIS page where the issue of "independent' or "not independent" is discussed in detail. And the clear message from the USCIS is that they want to see independent letters since getting good letters from colleagues in no big deal and doesn't prove in anyway that you are an international outstanind researcher.

And no offense, but the sentence "If you're a PhD (especially from US),
you're supposed to have made outstanding contributions and you're
probably 80-90% qualified for EB-1 OR thing just with the degree" is complete BS and gives people who don't know much about OR a totally wrong idea about the whole process and the necessary evidences because it is simply not true.

 

[MDGUTS1307]

Read AAO cases on the web

I would recommend reading EB1 -OR cases that were sent to AAO for a good idea for what the USCIS may want.

I do not have the website, but I know it exits. I spent hours looking at last year.

Good Luck !
MDGUTS

 

[TH4GC]

Highlight one of your work

If you think your other credentials are weak and you want strong
letters, it's worth trying to get better letters.

But I differ a little bit from Honkman's opinion on what the good letter is.
Whether the letter is from independent researcher does not matter much.
Number 1 priority should be whether the refree can write about you and
your research with confidence or not.

I submitted 7 letters and only 1 of them is from a stranger who happens to know my work. I have many people who knows my work (~140 citation,
~100 citation from 1 paper).

6 letters are from people who know my research very well and spent
hundreds of nights to solve a problem together. They can write about
my research contribution in very detail with confidence.

That was the key that my lawyer wanted from the letters and I think
she was dead right. She did not even require more than 5 letters
or any independent letter.

My company has numerous PhD's in my group. They all got approved
with just 5 - 6 letters. Their letters were not even from hot shots.
They just have a few publications with a few citations.

This EB-1 OR thing is for a phD. If you're a PhD (especially from US),
you're supposed to have made outstanding contributions and you're
probably 80-90% qualified for EB-1 OR thing just with the degree.

I did not have many papers or citations when I applied for EB-OR either. My case was appoved within 30 days without any RFE from NSC. I can tell you what was my strategy; but can not comment on what works with CIS, EB-OR or NSC. A fresh (even after 2/3 years) PhD from US School is not likely to have many papers or citations.

1. Emphasize the job you are doing- that's the most important I think

2. Pick one of your work (paper) and make it a breakthru' or outstanding whatever by at least 4 references from diverse group of refrees (at least one or two from outsiade USA).

3. Take ref. letters from different place/ kinds of refrees, not necessarily high profile, not nessearily unknown to you (as long as they are not your supervisor), even if you work with them for short time, it's oK. None of my refrees was unknown to me. Try limit one refree to comment on only one of your work.

4. Citation - 20 for me. I did not provide them with impact score of my papers

5. Reviewer of others' work- I did not have

6. Membership- bunch of common association (ACS, AAS, SigmaXi etc.)

7. I was a invited lecturer in one seminar, actually that was a job interview in a University.

I just described my experinces and what worked for me.

 

[fdfd]

And no offense, but the sentence "If you're a PhD (especially from US),
you're supposed to have made outstanding contributions and you're
probably 80-90% qualified for EB-1 OR thing just with the degree" is complete BS and gives people who don't know much about OR a totally wrong idea about the whole process and the necessary evidences because it is simply not true.

Oh boy honkman, you must be really proud of your EB-1 OR approval.
Do I deserve BS just because I have different opinion from yours ?
I thought we learned to be open to others opinion all those years
in graduate school ? Let's see who is misleading more....

I still stand by my statements. USCIS procedure is not a science.
Official USCIS guideline sounds intimidating but don't be intimidated.

EB-1 OR is pretty much for all the average PhD's from average US universities.
(Just don't sweat much to meet the requirements. Consult your lawyer.
If a good lawyer says you have a chance, you're fine.)

The original poster asked if it could be a waste of time to try to get
good letters. No it's not. But don't try too hard to get "independent"
letters. THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT THAT YOU SHOULD HAVE LETTERS
FROM SOMEONE WHO DO NOT KNOW YOU PERSONALLY.

In fact, I've prepared 4 letters from top guys in my field. But my lawyer
did not take it but one. Guess what?, my lawyer thought letters from
my current boss and my former advisor were the best.

Make sure you get excellent letters from your current and former associates
first before you try so called "independent" researchers. They are the ones
who knows you best, right ? I WASTED couple of months for this.
My lawyer actually told me not to waste more time because reference
letters from my ex-coworkers are strong enough.

Again, don't sweat too much on this "independent" letter things unless EB-1
OR is your ONLY option and you have all the time in your world.

The key is to have research contribution details written with *confidence*
in you. It does not matter whether they are from your colleagues or not.

My company(140,000+ employees, one of the biggest IT companies) has
very good lawyers. You should follow good lawyer's guidances.
Use opinions on this board carefully. That has been my experiences
with this board....

Good luck!

 

[krprasad]

i agree with fdfd, uscis procedure to approve/deny is not an exact science.

but there are certain minimum requirements(unless someone knows of a case which was otherwise)

1. Phd
2. 3 years of work experience (i know one case where candidate got approved with just 2 years of post-doc, he claimed phd work as work experience)
3. 3-4 publications
4. 3-4 recos


if i was in the committee making regulations, it would have been simply:
1. the candidates work and the proof that its good(as it is done in practial life all over the world anyway), which is nothing but the candidates publications.
2. 2-3 ref letters just to make sure that candidate is also a social creature

 

[fdfd]

2. 3 years of work experience (i know one case where candidate got approved with just 2 years of post-doc, he claimed phd work as work experience)

I'm not aware of this. My lawyer told me the requirement is to have
minimum 3 years of "research" experiences and she used my research
during my PhD program for this, just like all the fresh PhD's....

 

[TH4GC]

3 years experince

I'm not aware of this. My lawyer told me the requirement is to have
minimum 3 years of "research" experiences and she used my research
during my PhD program for this, just like all the fresh PhD's....

3 years experience is not necessarily postdoctoral. I did not have 3 years experinces either. I saw some people in this forum- with 50 paper, 100 citations, 10 patents etc. When I was filing I was really scared seeing those profile. I just can not understand how people publish 50 papers unless they are professor supervising graduate students. However, we do not how how CIS people exactly work on EB-OR cases. Definitely it's not a science. I would say it's a fine arts. My suggestion is- with whatever you have, just give it a try. I don't see any harm there.

 

[honkman]

Oh boy honkman, you must be really proud of your EB-1 OR approval.
Do I deserve BS just because I have different opinion from yours ?
I thought we learned to be open to others opinion all those years
in graduate school ? Let's see who is misleading more....

I still stand by my statements. USCIS procedure is not a science.
Official USCIS guideline sounds intimidating but don't be intimidated.

EB-1 OR is pretty much for all the average PhD's from average US universities.
(Just don't sweat much to meet the requirements. Consult your lawyer.
If a good lawyer says you have a chance, you're fine.)

The original poster asked if it could be a waste of time to try to get
good letters. No it's not. But don't try too hard to get "independent"
letters. THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT THAT YOU SHOULD HAVE LETTERS
FROM SOMEONE WHO DO NOT KNOW YOU PERSONALLY.

In fact, I've prepared 4 letters from top guys in my field. But my lawyer
did not take it but one. Guess what?, my lawyer thought letters from
my current boss and my former advisor were the best.

Make sure you get excellent letters from your current and former associates
first before you try so called "independent" researchers. They are the ones
who knows you best, right ? I WASTED couple of months for this.
My lawyer actually told me not to waste more time because reference
letters from my ex-coworkers are strong enough.

Again, don't sweat too much on this "independent" letter things unless EB-1
OR is your ONLY option and you have all the time in your world.

The key is to have research contribution details written with *confidence*
in you. It does not matter whether they are from your colleagues or not.

My company(140,000+ employees, one of the biggest IT companies) has
very good lawyers. You should follow good lawyer's guidances.
Use opinions on this board carefully. That has been my experiences
with this board....

Good luck!

If you go on the USCIS page you will find that for EB-1 OR you have to be an "internationally recognized" scientist. How will you prove this if you don't have any letters from international scientists ? Your boss can only say something about your accomplishments in his group and nothing else. There are enough RFEs (on this forum or on the USCIS page) which describe this issue. Apparently your seem to be very proud about your I-140 to tell everybody that they should follow your approach blindly and most likely will get an RFE.
And nobody said that the whole USCIS process is rocket science but on the other hand saying "If you're a PhD (especially from US),
you're supposed to have made outstanding contributions and you're
probably 80-90% qualified for EB-1 OR thing just with the degree" was BS and is still BS because it has nothing to do with reality that having a PhD gives you already a 80-90% security to get an approval by USCIS. And that has nothing to do how proud I am or not but you simply doesn't help other very much by claiming dubious facts which are not backed by any evidences.

 

[fdfd]

Honkman. I've seen your postings. You're setting the standard too high
for this EB-1 OR thing. And change your attitude. Do not BS others opinion.
You should be more humble PhD's.

Plus, I'm not sure what your point is. Are we still talking about whether
we need letters from "independent" researchers or not ?

fdfd
P.S. May I ask which country your PhD is from ?
As I recall, Your PhD is from some European country.
If yes, you're not exactly in the position to say something about
"PhD's from US universities...", IMHO.

If you go on the USCIS page you will find that for EB-1 OR you have to be an "internationally recognized" scientist. How will you prove this if you don't have any letters from international scientists ? Your boss can only say something about your accomplishments in his group and nothing else. There are enough RFEs (on this forum or on the USCIS page) which describe this issue. Apparently your seem to be very proud about your I-140 to tell everybody that they should follow your approach blindly and most likely will get an RFE.
And nobody said that the whole USCIS process is rocket science but on the other hand saying "If you're a PhD (especially from US),
you're supposed to have made outstanding contributions and you're
probably 80-90% qualified for EB-1 OR thing just with the degree" was BS and is still BS because it has nothing to do with reality that having a PhD gives you already a 80-90% security to get an approval by USCIS. And that has nothing to do how proud I am or not but you simply doesn't help other very much by claiming dubious facts which are not backed by any evidences.

 

[honkman]

Honkman. I've seen your postings. You're setting the standard too high
for this EB-1 OR thing. And change your attitude. Do not BS others opinion.
You should be more humble PhD's.

Plus, I'm not sure what your point is. Are we still talking about whether
we need letters from "independent" researchers or not ?

fdfd
P.S. May I ask which country your PhD is from ?
As I recall, Your PhD is from some European country.
If yes, you're not exactly in the position to say something about
"PhD's from US universities...", IMHO.

I am not setting the standard to high but you are only thinking about the best case scenario for everybody which is a very unlikely situation.
And the main issues I have with your suggestions are your underestimation of the importance of independent letters and your sentences about the 80-90% probability of getting an approval for OR by just having a PhD which willmislead others so that they will get RFEs.
And yes I have a PhD from an Eurpoean university but during my postdoc I have supervised enough American PhDs that I am at least in the same position as you to say something about "PhD's from US universities...". But I guess your P.S. in your post shows again your arrogance you showed before in other posts that you are the only one who has the knowledge to make the right call.

 

[fdfd]

No, I'm not talking about the best case scenario.
I'm talking about average cases.

And I still stand by my statement: There is no requirement for
independent letters. You should put higher priority on the content and
(maybe the background of the refree) than whether it's from independent
or from collegues. The letters from current or ex-collegues have their
own merits over independent letters.

And lastly, always consult good lawyer. Be very careful in digesting
infomation on this board.

fdfd

p.s. Honkman. I'm not questioning your capability as a European PhD.
I just want to make sure if you know enoguh cases with US phD's.
I don't know what arrogances I was fuming ? If I did, didn't you
start it first by BSing my opinion ?

I can only speak for US PhD's for which EB-1 cases I have close infomation.
In the building I'm working, there are probably about 100 US PhD's.
95% of them are "average" PhD with just a few exceptions. Our company
lawyers has 99% success rates on EB-1 OR cases. We all do frequent
information exchanges between EB-1 files in our building.

I can not speak for PhD's from other countries. I just want to clarify that....

I am not setting the standard to high but you are only thinking about the best case scenario for everybody which is a very unlikely situation.
And the main issues I have with your suggestions are your underestimation of the importance of independent letters and your sentences about the 80-90% probability of getting an approval for OR by just having a PhD which willmislead others so that they will get RFEs.
And yes I have a PhD from an Eurpoean university but during my postdoc I have supervised enough American PhDs that I am at least in the same position as you to say something about "PhD's from US universities...". But I guess your P.S. in your post shows again your arrogance you showed before in other posts that you are the only one who has the knowledge to make the right call.

 

[honkman]

No, I'm not talking about the best case scenario.
I'm talking about average cases.

And I still stand by my statement: There is no requirement for
independent letters. You should put higher priority on the content and
(maybe the background of the refree) than whether it's from independent
or from collegues. The letters from current or ex-collegues have their
own merits over independent letters.

And lastly, always consult good lawyer. Be very careful in digesting
infomation on this board.

fdfd

I guess we have different opinions about this issue. I also still stand to my statement that your are not talking about the average case but the best case scenario which is very dangerous. Good content and background of the referee is of course important but won't help you too much if it is from your own boss or colleague since it won't prove your international reputation. And therefore independent letters are clearly much more important than those from former colleagues.
But at least we can agree that it is very important not to rely alone on this board since nobody here is a lawyer and you should always consult one before submitting your petition.

 

[fdfd]

I guess we have different opinions about this issue. I also still stand to my statement that your are not talking about the average case but the best case scenario which is very dangerous. Good content and background of the referee is of course important but won't help you too much if it is from your own boss or colleague since it won't prove your international reputation. And therefore independent letters are clearly much more important than those from former colleagues.
But at least we can agree that it is very important not to rely alone on this board since nobody here is a lawyer and you should always consult one before submitting your petition.

OK. If you do not know anyone who has international reputations,
you'll need independent letters.

The original poster says he already got letters from "hot shots",
so I assume he already has letters.