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Does the punishment fit the "CRIME" ?

prepelix

Registered Users (C)
DOES THE PUNISHMENT FIT THE “CRIME”???
(This is going to be a long post :) )
FACTS​
My girlfriend applied through a student placement agency and lucky for her she got selected in May2000. I felt like I am going to lose her ( 7 years together) so I started to look for a sponsor myself in US, ending up in the same place like her as love was more powerful then money (I sent my resume to 2000 companies). I did not go through a recruiting company instead I did everything by my best knowledge and internet.

20th July 2000 – 19th November 2000 visa j1 - work and travel, came back in time on 15th of December 2000

I checked the IAP 66 and visa application with student and presented myself with a valid student card for 2000, final year of study, i was asked all the usual questions, what am I going to do with the very important final exam (license exam), i postponed it I smiled got the visa went to US and I felt there that I can do everything I put my mind into.

Came back in December and traveled a month for training in France Alps for a company with a very interesting business model on leisure time and activities. i got trained but I did not stay with them as the US mirage was more powerful

30th April 2001 – 12th September 2001 visa j1 - camp counselor, came back in time on 11th October 2001

This is a disputed visa for which I got denied a manager trainee visa in 2003. Please pay attention to what I am about to say:

I went to the embassy with the exact same papers like the ones in 2000 as it was a identical situation, I still had the final exam to pass and I considered that ... I will face the consular officer I will tell him that I am still a student ... final exam to pass ... and having nothing else to hide with a previous respected visa I will get another one. NOW I know THAT I WOULD NOT HAVE GOT IT. Reason .. I was not a student anymore but a graduated student without license. It happened that in that day for the same visa like me the j1 there were hundreds of others in front of the embassy, not even a line was not possible that many were there, so the embassy officials decided to collect all the passports and visa applications and only to call in the few that needed explaining to do. I stood there waiting to be called in as I knew that my student ID did not have a stamp on it for the year 2001 but in my heart I considered myself still a student as I still had an exam to pass .. the most important one, only after that exam the license is awarded. I haven’t been called in and I was given the visa. I respected it grew on a personal level and came back: trained as swimming instructor, lifeguard, substitute teacher exam passed, the TEOFL test with 293 points out of 300.

23rd of July 2002 -03 October 2002 J1 visa – camp counselor, came back on time: 25th of October 2002

This time I applied for the J1 visa as a employee of a private business, you’ll ask me why not a student like the previous attempts, the explanation comes very easily… the former girlfriend whom I traveled all around finished her university but she follow trough with her final exam and she became a graduate thus unable to apply as a student; I do not know who taught her that you can apply also as a employee of a private business but she did and she was successful, so did I . The funny thing was that the consular officer warned me that my 4th attempt if I will come again.. I will not get a visa. Based on my previous activity with the YMCA my sponsors decided that I should be awarded with a manager trainee internship/scholarship only to start a month later or so. I came back full of hope knowing that I stroke gold and that internship is going to be my path to better myself. The papers followed me in 2 weeks or so.

I went to the embassy on my birthday but I did not stress out that thing, as it was not appropriate, I was in a great mood but to my surprise the consular officer was very upset almost rude … I had no idea why.. Even if I speak a good English, words like misrepresentation of material facts did not ring a bell. But he told me that in the second year I left I wasn’t a student anymore as I was not attending full classes anymore. He denied my visa. I went back home studied the thing to the best of my abilities went to refusals and there I met the consular officer of the higher rank and in my defense I asked him to point out why would I respect every visa that I was given not one but three and misrepresent myself at the embassy. It made no point and so it seemed to the counselor officer as he stamped my passports with a canceled with no prejudice stamp and gave me a 214 b and strongly advised me not to come in the following couple of years for a visa.

I DID NOT (6 years) I got a master degree married a beautiful women, parented a 4 year old girl that I am really proud of, until guess what, I WON AT THE GREEN CARD LOTTERY

We went there.. Laid out the whole truth and in 3 visits to the embassy we got denied as me being the main applicant I was told that I still fall under the misrepresentation thing that I thought the last consular officer corrected.
I am not challenging the consular officer (vice consul) judgment. For him it was a case older than 6 year who was already tagged. I will also tell you that the consular officer pursue my case to the best of his abilities but he failed to consider what the law should address misrepresentation is defined as an act that in the end prejudices one part and benefits the other. If you give a visa to someone in this world you give him credit that he will act as a human being according to the law in that country; you do not award the visa. It is not a prize; it is a right of way for someone who asks it. Now I come and ask you, if you ask for it, and you get it, but to the best of your knowledge are still wrong, respect it, do you actually commit a crime that is punishable for life. I was kindly told that and I specifically asked the consular office to manage my self esteem and so he did. He answered all my questions but he calmly told me that I am stained for life and it will stay on my record for life.
I write this to tell you my story as all of you on this forum deserve to know it and to let the people know that even if you GO BY THE BOOK, apply THE LAW, but the LAW allows for one single injustice to take place … as I feel now … THE LAW IS CORRECTABLE.

I also wrote it to reassure my self esteem (inner self) that even the things turned out bad for my family I still have to power to move on. Which direction .. it remains to be seen.

When it happened the first time, the first visa denial … I was enraged … but that was just a childish reaction to something I did not understand at that point. Now I sit in disbelief and type, but being a father and a husband I do not have that luxury any more.

I have no juridical experience … I might be wrong and I stand correction from each of you who know better; I am an economist with a master degree in management of adult education but the experience I got through meeting people in US/Europe I value as twice the formal training I was given in regular universities

Vice consul A answer on a day of December was:
"Section 212(a)(6)(C)(1) - Applicant completed his university coursework in 2000 per grade transcripts. Per the SWT requirements in 2001 only post secondary students who were returning to resume full time classes could participate in SWT, effectively excluding final year students. The applicant did not disclose in his 2000 and 2001 SWT interview that he had completed all his coursework and only had his final license exam pending, which he completed in 2003. Had the Consular Officer known this, the applicant would not have been issued a J1 visa. As such the original 6C1 finding from 2003 still valid"
 
Yes the punishment fits the crime. Ignorance is not a defense in law. Besides you knew you misrepresented the facts to the consular officer if not in the first application but certainly in the second application.
 
Yes the punishment fits the crime. Ignorance is not a defense in law. Besides you knew you misrepresented the facts to the consular officer if not in the first application but certainly in the second application.

Thank you for your prompt reply.
I got your point and I appreciate the fact that you replied that fast. It does seem NOW that I know a bit about immigrating to US ... 7 years ago I knew nothing ... I just got the visas ... and none of my presented papers were fake ... thus .. FRAUD ... does not apply.
More .. I do not try to excuse myself in front of the public .... NOW .. I know that I was MISSREPRESENTING myself (7 years ago in front of the embassy I was filling in on my knees a piece of paper asking arround :) "waht should I write here?")... and let me tell you it wasn't willfuly ... the papers I filled in did not have a provision for J1 name graduate without a license cause I would have checked it .. it stated employee teacher and 12 more, I guess ... the closest being student. It was an on spot decision that I took beliving that I will have to explain it to the consular officer when I get inside the consular office. You tell me that NOT KNOWING THE LAW is not an excuse. I will have to agree with you on that with one provision and one only: the punishment should fit the crime. On a personal note .. I feel that being denied a manager trainee visa 6 years ago does that. I will tell you that being denied now not for me .. for my familly too ... I could live with that too. BUT LIFETIME ... it just makes me wonder.

to make it short: had no clue at that time of all the letters and provisions in the US immigration system ... I got the visa in 2001 by chance but I was true to US in every aspect of my previous and further visits. I will not appologize and excuse myself for something I've done inoccently. I did not search the gifted horse in the mouth in 2001 as I had no clue what too look for. I will pay the price though, as paying the price sets you free. If you're telling me lifetime ... I will have to disagree

the subject in place is not if the embassy was right or wrong ... the procedures are already there ... who am I to fight them in the tens of millions who apply on an yearly basis, but the simple fact that I FEEL it like an imprisonment. someone told me recently .. you can kill and get away with it ... consular officer...NEVER

in my country there were this caravanes that the consular officer did asking the people on how should the consular office react so that the rate of refusals decrease (35% refusals), I went there holding the "mighty hammer of justice in my hand" providing input and feedback. There I got to realise that the consular officer is a human with a great burden on his shoulders and all my remorse vanished. They are just as informed as we are when we first apply on our own. It's a matter of communication, but the whole responsability of that communication going wrong IS ON YOU. And by GOD there are numerous ways of that to happen, ARE THEY CORRECTABLE??

probably the huge amount of applications makes it futile as I might be "one in a million" special but for the rest of the planet ... it only means that there are 6000 more like me.


Thank you for your time reading this.
 
Visa waiver program Denied

i've been denied the entry to US in 2005 while i was going to assist my girlfriend whom was giving birth to my daugther. She were on a busness trip and we decided before she leaves that it'll be better for her to stay there till she delivers as she was very closed and then come back to Europe.
I am notified as a 2009 green card winner and I am wondering if this situation could be prejudiciable for me and my family to get the visa
NB:Once my entry was denied the officer told me that from now then i have to apply for a visa anytime i want to travel to US, even if i am an visa waiver program holder.
 
taz ...

can I get an email from you ?
I would like to discuss with you my options .. if any ...as letting this chance slip away is not something I would do easily
thank you
I follow the forum and you are pretty active .. and your activeness means a lot of cases audited and just by being aware of them is a big thing
again
thanks
 
The applicant did not disclose in his 2000 and 2001 SWT interview that he had completed all his coursework and only had his final license exam pending, which he completed in 2003. Had the Consular Officer known this, the applicant would not have been issued a J1 visa. As such the original 6C1 finding from 2003 still valid
You do not have to volunteer information. If you were asked those things, you had to answer the truth. If you did lie, that is one story. If you were never asked about those things, that is not 6C. You do not need to know when you can get a visa and when you cannot. That is responsibility of the consular officer. Your responsibility is to answer the questions truthfully. That is it.
 
You do not have to volunteer information. If you were asked those things, you had to answer the truth. If you did lie, that is one story. If you were never asked about those things, that is not 6C. You do not need to know when you can get a visa and when you cannot. That is responsibility of the consular officer. Your responsibility is to answer the questions truthfully. That is it.

first time I was interviewed I was in 2000 and all my papers were genuine. I was in the last year of my university with a valid stamped student card and good grades. the only thing I did in that interview was answering truthfully.
I got the visa. the second year I WENT TO THE EMBASSY with the same papers same student card stamped on the previous year as it was a similar case .. I still had that final exam to pass. I DID NOT GET INTERVIEWED ... there were too many of us. Only the ones with issues got called in. I WASN"T CALLED IN.
Had the consular officer interviewed me .. I wouldn't probably got the visa. The last consular officer blamed it on me telling me that IT IS MY RESPONSABILITY.
I only followed what they said. (orders)

the funny thing now is that the first consular officer accused me of misrepresentation for the first year ( very rude) the second in the DV case blamed both years on me first year even if I said the truth had all the papers right saying that only mid students are to be given J1 visas and not the first or last year students.
How would I know that regulation when the only thing that I did was email my resume to 2000 camps in US asking for a job. After that I followed what they said. It doesn't make sense !!!
2001 --- I did not get interviewed, and if I remeber right they will grant you an interview for the money you pay. I do not say I wasn't responsible but I went there true at heart ready to present my case .. even if would have been a weak one. I WAS TRUE AT HEART. why should you blame it on me ... who would have checked the gifted horse in the mouth ?

I wasn't asked those things as you say in 2001 and in 2000 I told them that I will come back as I have a really important exam to pass (license) and so I did in good time.

One more thing as all the things I can think of come back to me now ...They told me that filling in the papers in front of the embassy and signing them make them my responsibility. How would I have known unless explained.
Now I know I was a graduate without license and not a student. at that time 2001 I took my chances and went to the embassy ready to present my case. I checked on the application the closest thing to my case (at that time I knew I was a student and not a graduated one without a license). what you tell me since I wasn't interviewed at all seems to support my claim of not being a 6ci

would you be nice and provide me an email/im id so we can discuss more in detail, we would appreciate it
marius andreea and ioana:)
 
So, you mentioned on your DS-156 application that you were a student while you were not a student any more? Do you still have a copy of that form?
How do you know you were not a student?
Were you informed of that by your school?
 
So, you mentioned on your DS-156 application that you were a student while you were not a student any more? Do you still have a copy of that form?
How do you know you were not a student?
Were you informed of that by your school?

I do not have a copy of that form
when I checked student I did it based on the valid student card that I hold which was legal from 1st of October 1999 to the 1st of October 2000 ...legally I was still a student .. but here they come and say I was in the last year:). And the first thing I worried about was being legal.
I have even a letter written by the dean of my university supporting my actions then. As I went to each and every person that knew me ... the embassy though is only interested in those facts that affect directly the case.

Now I know I wasn't a student anymore after the 1st of October 2000 cause the term graduated without license has been explained to me by the university officials. neither a horse nor a donkey... a mule. A mule like me is worthless in Europe without that license exam ... that I came back to take in 2002.

The school doesn't bother to explain you who you are. You should know who you are. When you apply for a intellectual job you are required to provide the license paper not the grades transcripts.

In 2001 when I went to the embassy ... I went there with the only papers that granted me a visa the year before THE SAME ones ... but the student card wasn't stamped for 2000-2001 as that would have been a forgery, a fake , fraud. I did not want to do that .... as I do not lie ... not the kind of person I am. I took a chance to go in front of the officer and tell him my case not being aware of that intermediate status undergraduate - graduate without license - graduate with a license.

to my despair now I did not get interviewed and I got the visa at that time. I was very happy.

they are holding that on me now .. the fact that I got the visa ... but what happens with the general consul in 2003 at refusals when he said ... CANCELED WITHOUT PREJUDICE... if no prejudice then no misrepresentation.

let me be very clear ... I do not hold a grudge against any of the embassy officials as I got to meet them once ... and they were representative for any other I met afterwards except that old one in 2001 who was really rude :)

they are doing their job to the best of their abilities .. but if they are wrong I want them to come forward and say ... maybe we committed an error .. you lead us into it .. ok ... I am not spotless ... my lack of knowledge should not be exploited against me. It is not my burden entirely...more important it wasn't willful.

I welcome your questions and I appreciate your commitment till now.

marius
 
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