continuous residence broken due to education?

[chienp]

deleted

 

[cafeconleche]

There's no danger in filing now. The fact that you were a student will work in your favour, BUT, if you can wait to apply for citizenship using the 4 year 1 day rule, I'd recommend that. It's just another year. Otherwise, go ahead and apply.

 

[chienp]

thank you

deleted

 

[cafeconleche]

1. If you wait, your chances of denial are almost nil because you'll have been resident for the required amount of time, and your continuous residence (and of course physical presence) would be sound. You'll need much less explaining and proving to do. If you have nothing really to gain by applying now, wait.

2. You should send the application without additional documentation, because they might not even bother you. But, take documentation with you. What you've mentioned is good, though just take a bank letter saying you've had the account since xx/xx/xxxx. If your parents supported you, take a notarised letter from them stating this, and their tax returns. Take car registration, proof of selective service registration, etc. Whatever you have. You can also write a letter yourself explaining the situation. But, at the interview, volunteer nothing, and only give in if they ask you for stuff, or if you feel they're being difficult about your absence.

3. Don't list your foreign addresses. Just your "home" in the US with your parents. You can fill in another form that includes your foreign addresses and take this with you to the interview in case the interviewer wants it, but this probably won't happen. Also, if you decide to list just education and work in your N400, you can than exclude internships including the ones abroad. It depends how you go about it.

 

[riq2012]

Cafeconleche, I find your answers to chienp very interesting.

I will expose my case and see if you or anyone else knowledgeable about the subject is kind enough to give me an honest opinion.

I've lived in the U.S. for MANY MANY years but only became a permanent resident almost 5 years ago.
Ever since then these are my physical presence times in days. All of my stays abroad have been for study reasons but also of course for tourism. This is the format I am using: days inside the U.S. (days outside the US) *important events*

487 (22) 67 (3) 12 (118) 32 *Graduation from undergraduate program in the U.S.*

*Start of dual-degree graduate program U.S. AND university abroad* (175) 13 (163) 93 (16) 254 (84) 5 (39) 25 (67) *finally eligible to apply for citizenship*

When I'm finally eligible, I don't know what to do. If I can go, apply and go on with my studies abroad until I am called for biometrics and interview. Or if I will necessarily have to stop everything in my life just for this. It would be a great set back to have to stop everything. On the other hand, not getting my citizenship would ruin everything as well...

Do you think I should be concerned? I am currently completing a dual degree, one from a university based in the U.S. and the other one from a university based in Europe. The degree from the European university makes WAY more sense to study in Europe than in the U.S. Presently I am also doing a full-time internship in Europe at an American company. I have not applied for an N470 because I have never intended to leave the U.S. for more than 6 months... Also, I am scared that if for ANY reason it is denied, then it will be on the records that I intended to "work" abroad.

All of my immediate family is in the U.S. All my letters arrive at my U.S. address. My U.S. cellphone account has always been active. I am registered for selective service. I've had my bank accounts and credit cards for longer than I've been a permanent resident. I own a car and its registration is current. Of course so is my Driver's License. I periodically send enrollment verifications from my U.S. based university to my home address to have proof. I also get letters from my European university at my address in the U.S. I have filled my taxes every year (either as dependent or independent). I have health insurance in the U.S. I get all my medical work done when I'm there. All my library cards and other memberships in different things are current. And soon I will have to start paying back some U.S. student loans as well.

Is this enough? Not enough? I am thinking of getting an extra internship that can be done virtually from whatever company in the U.S. so as to show even more ties...

As I am a very international person and my dream is to work internationally... not getting my citizenship as soon as possible would pretty much ruin my life or at least my dreams. Besides, it is so clear to me that regardless of where I may be in the world the U.S. is and has been my home for so long... But for some reason I fear that whoever interviews me will try to the best of his ability to ruin me. I cannot afford a lawyer, and honestly I doubt a lawyer knows much more than I or any other person in this forum does. It is not fair that having completed all my requirements as stipulated by the law (30 month physical presence and never leaving for more than 6 months) I still have to worry so much about what could happen.

Any advice will be appreciated!

 

[Jackolantern]

487 (22) 67 (3) 12 (118) 32 *Graduation from undergraduate program in the U.S.*

*Start of dual-degree graduate program U.S. AND university abroad* (175) 13 (163) 93 (16) 254 (84) 5 (39) 25 (67)

Can you reduce that to the past 5 years? Are you eligible to apply for citizenship right now? When will your studying in Europe end?

 

[riq2012]

Jackolantern,

Thank you so much for your quick answer!

I am not eligible to apply for citizenship yet but will soon. The following dates are from the time I was first present in the U.S. after becoming a PR until the 5-year-minus-90-days date when I will finally be able to apply. If there are 2 months missing that's because when I became a PR I was temporarily abroad so my physical presence started later.

487 (22) 67 (3) 12 (118) 32 *Graduation from undergraduate program in the U.S.*

*Start of dual-degree graduate program U.S. AND university abroad* (175) 13 (163) 93 (16) 254 (84) 5 (39) 25 (67)


I will receive my graduate degree from the the U.S. based university sometime between applying for citizenship and my citizenship interview. But my European graduate degree will still be in the works (although nearly completed) by the time of my interview. I will be able to show my transcript however, with everything but the thesis completed.

Apart from finishing both degrees I am also currently doing a fulltime internship at an American company in Europe. I don't know however if an N470 can be given for full time internships so that might not even be a choice, although it would certainly be the best since I read that I would even be able to apply from abroad.

My second choice is to come back to the U.S. for 1 or 2 months on the day that I am eligible to apply for citizenship. I would be in the U.S. for biometrics and stay a bit longer afterwards, then come back for interview.

My last choice which would really mess all my graduation and career plans would be to come back on the day that I am eligible and have to stay for who knows how long until the interview... 4, 5 months. Would this be necessary with all the evidence I intend to provide? Is there anything else I could provide as evidence to avoid having to mess all my education and career plans? Like I said, I was even thinking of getting a U.S. based internship that I could do virtually to show even more ties.

Again, any advice would be much appreciated!

 

[Jackolantern]

If there are 2 months missing that's because when I became a PR I was temporarily abroad so my physical presence started later.

So you were abroad with Advance Parole when your green card was approved?

If yes, I would suggest basing your 5 years minus 90 days calculation as if your permanent resident status started on the day you first entered the US after green card approval. Because a strict interpretation of the law could hold that you were first admitted as a permanent resident on that date of first entry, and not when your green card was approved.

I will receive my graduate degree from the the U.S. based university sometime between applying for citizenship and my citizenship interview. But my European graduate degree will still be in the works (although nearly completed) by the time of my interview. I will be able to show my transcript however, with everything but the thesis completed.

Does that mean your studies in Europe will be done before the interview date, but you expect your internship in Europe to continue beyond the interview date?

Apart from finishing both degrees I am also currently doing a fulltime internship at an American company in Europe. I don't know however if an N470 can be given for full time internships so that might not even be a choice, although it would certainly be the best since I read that I would even be able to apply from abroad.

If the internship is one year or less, of which some months have already been completed, N-470 won't make sense. It might not even be approved before the internship is done.

 

[riq2012]

So you were abroad with Advance Parole when your green card was approved?

If yes, I would suggest basing your 5 years minus 90 days calculation as if your permanent resident status started on the day you first entered the US after green card approval. Because a strict interpretation of the law could hold that you were first admitted as a permanent resident on that date of first entry, and not when your green card was approved.

No, I had been an H4 for many years and was simply temporarily out of the country at the precise moment I became a PR.

I had read everywhere that the 5 years count from the day I became a PR. Is this not true?

Does that mean your studies in Europe will be done before the interview date, but you expect your internship in Europe to continue beyond the interview date?

No, my studies in Europe will be ALMOST done by the time I have the interview and I will be able to prove it with a transcript showing that the only thing missing is the thesis. But the American half of my graduate degrees will be ready shortly before the interview and of course I will be able to show the diploma or whatever.

I don't plan to mention anything about any internship UNLESS you think it would be worth it and very likely successful to apply for an N470.

If the internship is one year or less, of which some months have already been completed, N-470 won't make sense. It might not even be approved before the internship is done.

Interesting... yeah, the internship won't last too much longer, and if anything it will switch from full time to part time so that I will have more time to complete my thesis. Would an N470 even be approved for a fulltime and later partime internship at all? It is at the international headquarters of an American company and everything I am doing is international.


Anyway, so like I said, seeing that on an N470 I would be able to apply from abroad without any worries whatsoever, that would be the best option. But that might not be feasible in my case.

My second best option would be to travel to the U.S. to apply within the country and stay until after biometrics so that when I go to the interview I would only have to mention 1 extra trip abroad (between biometrics and interview, which seems to be the longest waiting time in the application process) and explain with all my paperwork that I am in the process of completing my thesis.

What are my chances with the 1st or 2nd option?


Some of the evidence I plan to take with me:

• All of my immediate family is in the U.S. and has been there for the whole entire time (I guess I will prove it with their picture IDs and tax forms).

• All my letters arrive at my U.S. address.

• My U.S. cellphone account has always been active.

• Registered for selective service.

• Credit cards and bank accounts (I've had them for longer than I've been a PR)

• Ownership of my car and its current registration.

• Driver's License.

• Enrollment verifications from U.S. university sent to my U.S. address during the times I was abroad.

• Letters from my European university sent to my U.S. address.

• Taxes filed every year.

• I have worked and paid social security taxes every single calendar year since I became a PR (I'll prove it with a statement from the SS office).

• U.S. health insurance.

• Library cards and other cards.

• U.S. student loan payments (and letters received at my U.S. address).

• Transcripts form High School all the way to Graduate school and scholarships, showing I'm a good student.

It might seem crazy with my life as busy as it already is, but now I am almost sure I will also try getting a partime U.S. job or internship that I can do virtually to show U.S. income also for 2013 (and that way I can show income for every single calendar year and also show that I am connected to the U.S. at the time of the interview).

What are my chances with all this evidence? Is there anything else I could add to it?

The U.S. IS and will always be at the end of the day my HOME. But I know my physical presence is borderline and my trips long and repetitive. So what do you think?

 

[Jackolantern]

I had read everywhere that the 5 years count from the day I became a PR. Is this not true?

Yes, it's true. But my point was that under a strict interpretation, "the day you became a PR" could be deemed as the first day you were physically in the US after green card approval. Many of the regulations surrounding naturalization and LPR status include wording like "lawfully admitted as a permanent resident", and I don't know if being outside the US with an H4 on the day of your I-485 approval counts as "lawfully admitted as a permanent resident".

Because you are already walking a fine line between approval and denial, don't give them another reason to deny your case; wait the extra couple of months and apply for naturalization as if your LPR status began when you first entered the US as an LPR. However, if you know of a court case that clarifies this either way, you can take action accordingly.

No, my studies in Europe will be ALMOST done by the time I have the interview and I will be able to prove it with a transcript showing that the only thing missing is the thesis.

So your classes in Europe will be done before the interview? If yes, that's good.

I don't plan to mention anything about any internship UNLESS you think it would be worth it and very likely successful to apply for an N470.

It's full-time employment, so you have to list it on the N-400. Bring some documents that show it's only an internship with a fixed end date, and not a permanent job. I don't think it's useful to apply for N-470 at this stage.

What are my chances with all this evidence? Is there anything else I could add to it?

Your chances are not bad. Chances would be better if you applied after all your overseas studying and working are done.

 

[madh4]

The total works to 988 days in US and 687 outside totaling 1675 days. Still 152 short of 1827 days ( 5 years + 2 of them leap year). If after completion of 5 years if you are still outside, the days you were in US get knocks off. Your 988 will get reduced unless you are in US. You have to be careful to see that you have 913 days in US, preferably 920, at all times-- at the time of application/ at interview and at oath ceremony.

 

[chienp]

response

1. If you wait, your chances of denial are almost nil because you'll have been resident for the required amount of time, and your continuous residence (and of course physical presence) would be sound. You'll need much less explaining and proving to do. If you have nothing really to gain by applying now, wait.

2. You should send the application without additional documentation, because they might not even bother you. But, take documentation with you. What you've mentioned is good, though just take a bank letter saying you've had the account since xx/xx/xxxx. If your parents supported you, take a notarised letter from them stating this, and their tax returns. Take car registration, proof of selective service registration, etc. Whatever you have. You can also write a letter yourself explaining the situation. But, at the interview, volunteer nothing, and only give in if they ask you for stuff, or if you feel they're being difficult about your absence.

3. Don't list your foreign addresses. Just your "home" in the US with your parents. You can fill in another form that includes your foreign addresses and take this with you to the interview in case the interviewer wants it, but this probably won't happen. Also, if you decide to list just education and work in your N400, you can than exclude internships including the ones abroad. It depends how you go about it.

thank you again for this response, it has been very helpful: some follow up:

2. Are you saying I should submit without adding any of the aforementioned documents to the application? I got the idea from the n400 instructions that provided some sample documentation ( i.e. tax returns) to prove continuous residence while abroad. Do most people bring that to their interview INSTEAD of including it with their n400 submission?

3.What "other form" are you referencing wherein i can place my foreign address? Also, would I be lying if i did not include my internships? ( they were 2 months and 1 month long respectively? )

Finally, lets say I submit, is there a possibility of losing my GC or is the worse case scenario that I am told to wait?

thanks everyone !

best,
C

 

[Jackolantern]

2. Are you saying I should submit without adding any of the aforementioned documents to the application? I got the idea from the n400 instructions that provided some sample documentation ( i.e. tax returns) to prove continuous residence while abroad. Do most people bring that to their interview INSTEAD of including it with their n400 submission?

Yes, for continuous residence most people bring that evidence to the interview instead of sending it with the application. Then at the interview you can show them as many or as few documents as needed based on the questions they ask and their reactions to your answers.

Sending too many documents before the interview can hurt. Anything you give them is another opportunity for them to nitpick and ask more questions and possibly request related evidence. For example there was a guy who sent tax returns although he didn't really have to, and the interviewer found a discrepancy on the return, forcing him to file an amended return which delayed his approval.

 

[chienp]

thanks,just a couple more!

deleted

 

[cafeconleche]

There is no other form. I suggested you exclude foreign addresses, and all internships, on the form you send with your application. You can fill out that same page, but a different copy, WITH your foreign addresses too, but take this with you to the interview in case they ask about your foreign addresses. This way, you can replace the page in the submitted form with the page you brought (same page, different choice of information). Just exclude internships altogether. Safer that way.

 

[riq2012]

Ok so to reiterate here are my days inside the US and absences in parenthesis (I did the calculations fast so it's not 100% accurate). Anyway, I have never been outside for more than 6 months and by the time of the interview I will have around 1000 days of physical presence inside the US.

487 (22) 67 (3) 12 (118) 32 (175) 13 (163) 93 (16) 254 (84) 5 (39) 25 (67) *n400 submission and fingerprints* 40 (??? abroad again until interview)


Some of the evidence I plan to take with me:

• University paperwork proving that all of my absences were for study purposes and I was enrolled at an American University at the same time during most of the absences.

• Enrollment verifications from U.S. university sent to my U.S. address during the times I was abroad.

• Letters from my European university sent to my U.S. address.

• American graduate diploma (will be completed shortly before the interview).

• Registration of my thesis with my European university showing that the degree will be completed shortly after the interview (and thus my recent absences from the country).

• Transcripts form High School all the way to Graduate school and scholarships, showing I'm a good student and sent to my U.S. address.

• Pay stubs and other paperwork of the 5-7 months before the interview showing that I've been employed partime in the U.S. and working virtually for a U.S. company despite being outside the country.

• Picture IDs and tax forms of my immediate family (parents, siblings who live at my same address) showing that they have been in the U.S. for the whole entire time.

• Letters arriving at my U.S. address during the past 5 years, including during my absences.

• Cellphone account statements during the entire time.

• Selective service registration.

• Credit cards and bank account statements

• Ownership of my car and its current registration.

• Car insurance

• Current Driver's License, and previous expired driver's license.

• Taxes filed every year.

• Statement from the Social Security office proving that I have worked and paid social security taxes every single calendar year since I became a PR, including 2013.

• U.S. health insurance.

• Receipts of visits to doctors in the U.S.

• Library cards

• Current CPR certification and paperwork sent while I was abroad

• Active Netflix account

• Membership of Alumni Association of my undergraduate university in my home state and letters received at my U.S. address

• Receipts of things bought online and sent to my U.S. address

• U.S. student loan payments (and letters received at my U.S. address).

• Print out of twitter account showing that 1) I speak English 2) I constantly talk about U.S. issues. 3) I am looking for an international job in the U.S. (and will have been looking for the past 7 months at the time of the interview)

So yes, my trips are long and repetitive. But seriously with all this evidence, is there anything I should worry about? Can the person who conducts the interview deny my case simply because they feel like it or don't like my face? What is your opinion?

 

[Jackolantern]

Ok so to reiterate here are my days inside the US and absences in parenthesis (I did the calculations fast so it's not 100% accurate).

If you list the exit/entry dates we will do the accurate calculations.

Anyway, I have never been outside for more than 6 months and by the time of the interview I will have around 1000 days of physical presence inside the US.

Physical presence stops counting when the application is filed (when USCIS receives it). So whatever you have on the interview date doesn't matter; you need to have the 913 days of presence as of the filing date.

Print out of twitter account showing that 1) I speak English 2) I constantly talk about U.S. issues.

Don't bother with that. They will judge your English based on how you communicate in the interview. Many people have somebody else operating their twitter account, so you can't use that as supporting proof.

So yes, my trips are long and repetitive. But seriously with all this evidence, is there anything I should worry about? Can the person who conducts the interview deny my case simply because they feel like it or don't like my face? What is your opinion?

Your collection of evidence is good, but your main problem is you're still abroad, so it's more difficult to convince them that it's only temporary. Your chances of approval would be much better if you applied after your work and studies abroad were completely done. On the other hand, depending on when that end date is, applying after you're done could mean you've accumulated so much time abroad that you're disqualified on the physical presence basis, so waiting until then may not be feasible.

 

[riq2012]

Thank you so much for your answer Jackolantern.

Interesting. Well I've had the minimum 913 since the middle of this year. I was just trying to get past the 1000 mark, kind of like a "psychological milestone". But I guess it doesn't matter anymore, I won't have 1000 by the time I apply, I'll only have around 980 or so.

Your chances of approval would be much better if you applied after your work and studies abroad were completely done.

I still don't understand how could they not be convinced that my main residence is in the U.S. I have followed all the rules, have all the required times, never left for more than 6 months, have all the supporting evidence to prove that my permanent residence has always been in the U.S. etc. Since I never left for more than 6 months isn't actually on THEM to try proving that I actually wanted to permanently leave the U.S.?

Can they really do and decide whatever they want despite whatever proof I have to the contrary?

Has there been a case of someone in this forum where the person interviewing disregarded everything and denied just because he/she felt like it?

Also, yes, my stays abroad have been due to studies BUT... I am also an avid traveler, and by avid traveler I mean that I've been to way more places than most people will be in a lifetime. This is like my biggest hobby (and my unofficial reason for studying abroad so much). I also have the pictures to prove it. So is extensive traveling and tourism forbidden by USCIS??? Would including pictures of me in the SO MANY PLACES I've visited help or damage my case?

Thanks!

 

[Jackolantern]

Can they really do and decide whatever they want despite whatever proof I have to the contrary?

Has there been a case of someone in this forum where the person interviewing disregarded everything and denied just because he/she felt like it?

Yes and Yes. Some appeal and win. Some appeal and lose. Some reapply and are successful.

I'm not saying you're going to be denied. You'll probably be approved if you face a nice and decent interviewer and show key pieces of evidence. But if you face a harsh interviewer, the fact that your studies and/or work abroad will be still ongoing at the time of the interview could be the deciding factor against you, resulting in having to fight it at a higher level or reapply.

When will your working/studying abroad be completed? 6 months from now? A year from now? 2 years? Of major importance is your ability to confidently tell the interviewer a specific end date which isn't too far in the future, and to back up that end date with documentation. The more certain your end date appears to be, the better your chances. The courts also consider that aspect; uncertain end dates can make you lose the appeal.

 

[riq2012]

Jackolantern,

Thank you again so much for your answer. Yes. At the interview I will have documentation from my European university and it will clearly show that I have registered my thesis (which is my final requirement for the European portion of my dual degree) and have a limited amount of time to complete it. I calculate that this time will end about 2-3 months after the interview.

I also have clear and obvious explanations of WHY I am doing this degree and why in Europe as opposed to the U.S. and how I need it to continue my professional life in the U.S.

Anyway... on a separate topic I was reading the following

8 CFR 316.5 residence for natz

(c) Disruption of continuity of residence—
(1) Absence from the United States—

(i) For continuous periods of between six (6) months and one (1) year. Absences from the United States for CONTINOUS periods of between six (6) months and one (1) year during the periods for which continuous residence is required under § 316.2 (a)(3) and (a)(6) shall disrupt the continuity of such residence for purposes of this part unless the applicant can establish otherwise to the satisfaction of the Service. This finding remains valid even if the applicant did not apply for or otherwise request a nonresident classification for tax purposes, did not document an abandonment of lawful permanent resident status, and is still considered a lawful permanent resident under immigration laws. The types of documentation which may establish that the applicant did not disrupt the continuity of his or her residence in the United States during an extended absence include, but are not limited to, evidence that during the absence:
(A) The applicant did not terminate his or her employment in the United States;
(B) The applicant's immediate family remained in the United States;
(C) The applicant retained full access to his or her United States abode; or
(D) The applicant did not obtain employment while abroad.

(ii) For period in excess of one (1) year. Unless an applicant applies for benefits in accordance with § 316.5(d), absences from the United States for a continuous period of one (1) year or more during the period for which continuous residence is required under § 316.2 (a)(3) and (a)(5) shall disrupt the continuity of the applicant's residence. An applicant described in this paragraph who must satisfy a five-year statutory residence period may file an application for naturalization four years and one day following the date of the applicant's return to the United States to resume permanent residence. An applicant described in this paragraph who must satisfy a three-year statutory residence period may file an application for naturalization two years and one day following the date of the applicant's return to the United States to resume permanent residence. <<<< This REMEDY applies to BOTH types of breaks as long as you still meet the overall MINIMUM time as an LPR.

(2) Claim of nonresident alien status for income tax purposes after lawful admission as a permanent resident. An applicant who is a lawfully admitted permanent resident of the United States, but who voluntarily claims nonresident alien status to qualify for special exemptions from income tax liability, or fails to file either federal or state income tax returns because he or she considers himself or herself to be a nonresident alien, raises a rebuttable presumption that the applicant has relinquished the privileges of permanent resident status in the United States.

(3) Removal and return. Any departure from the United States while under an order of removal (including previously issued orders of exclusion or deportation) terminates the applicant's status as a lawful permanent resident and, therefore, disrupts the continuity of residence for purposes of this part.

(4) Readmission after a deferred inspection or exclusion proceeding. An applicant who has been readmitted as a lawful permanent resident after a deferred inspection or by the immigration judge during exclusion proceedings shall satisfy the residence and physical presence requirements under § 316.2 (a)(3), (a)(4), (a)(5), and (a)(6) in the same manner as any other applicant for naturalization.

Having read that section of the law, on what basis could they possibly argue that two trips abroad of 5 months each disrupted my continuous residence???

I mean... I have all the evidence to support my case and I am very clear in my reasons of why I did this and how it was temporary in nature. But according to this law I shouldn't even have to provide any evidence whatsoever, since I was never CONTINUOUSLY abroad for more than 6 months...

Is this not the case? Do they seriously make up their own laws in their head as they go and/or if they like my face or not? Or are we confusing the criteria for naturalization with the criteria for letting you in vs taking away your greencard at a point of entrance?

It seems to me perfectly clear under the above law that for purposes of naturalization, absences of less than 6 months even if back to back should not in any way affect the process (because they weren't continuous absences). And that's probably because of the additional requirement of proving 30 months of physical presence...

Any thoughts?