Can naturalization application jeopardize GC?

[bcc8234]

Hi,

I've had GC for 4 years. In August 2010, it will be 5 years. I'll have something like 880 days out of US during that 5 years. It's a lot, but I think I still make it as far as the physical presence requirement goes.

But I do have several back-to-back trips lasting 5+ months each. The longest one was 179 days. So I think I'm OK as far as not hitting the 6 month per trip limit of continuous presence. But I guess it will still raise questions.

I'm planning to stay in the US until August 2010 and apply for citizenship.

Would it be possible that I'm not only denied the citizenship (based solely on my long trips), but also my GC gets revoked because of that in the same ruling?

I have a business in the US with active bank accounts (and activity didn't stop during my trips out of the country), and I filed taxes as resident throughout that whole time. But I don't have leases/mortgage payments during those months.

Would showing my business activity be enough to take care of questions about my long absence?

Also, I have 5 creative works filed for copyright with the Library of Congress (part of the business). Does that help establish my ties to the US?

And if no, is it possible to also lose GC when applying for citizenship while inside the US?

In other words, am I taking a risk by applying?

 

[Jackolantern]

Would it be possible that I'm not only denied the citizenship (based solely on my long trips), but also my GC gets revoked because of that in the same ruling?

Residence criteria for maintaining the GC and being eligible for citizenship are different (citizenship is more strict).

It is highly unlikely that a natz denial for breaking residence would be followed up by revoking your GC for the same reason. The place where they initiate GC revocation for being outside the US too long is at the port of entry, not the naturalization process. Given that you were let back into the US without a court date to see an immigration judge, the natz interviewer will presume that your travel situation was already found acceptable to the officer at the airport or border as far as maintaining the GC is concerned (although they may have given you a warning not to travel so long next time).

But if you lied about any of your trips (e.g. saying you were gone for 2 months when it was really 15 months), either at the port of entry or on the N-400, and the lie is caught in the naturalization process when they're reviewing your records, that's when your GC could be in jeopardy.

Also, I have 5 creative works filed for copyright with the Library of Congress (part of the business). Does that help establish my ties to the US?

No. Even foreigners who live outside the US can get that.

In other words, am I taking a risk by applying?

Assuming you did not lie about your trips at the port of entry and will not lie on the N-400, the only risk caused by those long trips is the risk of wasting your money by getting denied. If denied for that reason, all you have to do is wait long enough and reapply.

 

[WBH]

Given that you were let back into the US without a court date to see an immigration judge, the natz interviewer will presume that your travel situation was already found acceptable to the officer at the airport or border as far as maintaining the GC is concerned

I seriously doubt POE officials want to carefully examine that all the time.
Often hear old people entered USA with GC without any issue after 2 or 3 years of absence without even bothering to apply fro renetry permit. They
are often retired people who take a "If you let me in then I am in if you refuse me then please send me back" attitude.

 

[bcc8234]

the only risk caused by those long trips is the risk of wasting your money by getting denied.

How big of a risk is it?

If officers at POE never "recommended to surrender GC" and never gave me hard time after hearing my explanations of what I did on the trips, would it mean that I'm OK as far as continuous residence goes? Or does the IO at the naturalization interview make his/her own decision regardless of the fact that I was let back into the country without any problems?

 

[Jackolantern]

I seriously doubt POE officials want to carefully examine that all the time.

They usually don't. But when somebody keeps up a pattern of long trips year after year, eventually one officer notices it and warns them or takes away the card.

But that is besides the point. The point is that it is not the naturalization interviewer's job to determine that the individual should lose their green card based on staying outside the US too long. That is a job for the port of entry ... even if someone was outside the US for more than a year without a reentry permit, the POE officer still has discretion to let the person in. If there is no reason to believe the applicant lied, the natz interviewer will respect the POE officer's decision to admit the individual into the US, and will not attempt to revoke the green card for traveling too much.

 

[Jackolantern]

How big of a risk is it?

Risk of being denied? High. Risk of losing your green card? Smaller risk than driving a car or crossing a city street.

If officers at POE never "recommended to surrender GC" and never gave me hard time after hearing my explanations of what I did on the trips, would it mean that I'm OK as far as continuous residence goes?

No, it only means you are OK as far as keeping your green card is concerned (assuming you don't commit a deportable crime), at least until the next time you leave the US.

They can deny your naturalization for breaking continuous residence, but still allow you to keep the green card, because the residence criteria for keeping the green card are less stringent than for naturalization.

 

[bcc8234]

My living in the US/traveling pattern is as follows:

After getting the GC, I spent 22 months in the US with one two-week trip abroad. Then I spent 2 years going back and fourth (with about 5 weeks total time in the US between the trips). Now, I plan to spend 9 months in the US up to the point of hitting the 5-year mark.

Does the fact that I'll be living 9 months in the US help or should I not bother applying?

Will this 2-year gap make me pretty much ineligible for naturalization?

 

[Jackolantern]

Does the fact that I'll be living 9 months in the US help or should I not bother applying?

It helps. Still might not be enough though.

Will this 2-year gap make me pretty much ineligible for naturalization?

Continuous residence is largely at the discretion of the IO, so it is possible to get approved even though your case looks bad, even if it just a 10% or 5% chance of approval. So if you can afford to lose the money, go ahead and apply in 2010 and see what happens. If denied, you're not going to lose your green card over it, assuming there is nothing else like a criminal record that would jeopardize your green card.

 

[bcc8234]

so it is possible to get approved even though your case looks bad, even if it just a 10% or 5% chance of approval.

Is it really that bad? I knew it would raise questions, but only 5-10% chance of success?

There is an explanation for the time I spent outside of the US.

I sold one of my websites and used that money to finance an export operation.

I have both:
- the sale documents showing how I raised the initial capital.
- and an "exclusive distributor agreement" from a US-based company (the producer of the merchandise) to my US-based company, grating me exclusive rights to distribute their product on the territory of my home country.

So according to the paperwork, my US-based company would be buying the merchandise from another US-based company and shipping it to my home country.

So it's not me working for a US-based producer, and not a case of me living in my home country selling their merchandise. It's strictly my US-based business setting up offshore location for product distribution.

That's the reason I traveled so much.

I still need to continue going there, but I'll have to stop so that I don't completely ruin my chances of successful naturalization.

Isn't that a valid reason for extended and frequent trips abroad provided I can show those two pieces of documentation?

 

[Jackolantern]

Is it really that bad? I knew it would raise questions, but only 5-10% chance of success?

I didn't say yours has a 5 or 10% chance. I used the word "if". I don't know exactly how good or bad your chances are, as I haven't seen all your supporting documentation, nor am I an immigration officer who does interviews. If you can afford to lose the money, apply and see what happens.

There is an explanation for the time I spent outside of the US.

I sold one of my websites and used that money to finance an export operation.

I have both:
- the sale documents showing how I raised the initial capital.
- and an "exclusive distributor agreement" from a US-based company (the producer of the merchandise) to my US-based company, grating me exclusive rights to distribute their product on the territory of my home country.

So according to the paperwork, my US-based company would be buying the merchandise from another US-based company and shipping it to my home country.

So it's not me working for a US-based producer, and not a case of me living in my home country selling their merchandise. It's strictly my US-based business setting up offshore location for product distribution.

To what extent does your company actually do business in the US? Any employees in the US? A long-term office in the US? Customers in the US? If you're going to use your company as supporting evidence of your ties to the US, it doesn't look so good if it is really operating like a foreign company that is merely registered in the US. Again, I used the word "if", as I don't know the actual nature of your business.

 

[bcc8234]

To what extent does your company actually do business in the US? Any employees in the US? A long-term office in the US? Customers in the US? If you're going to use your company as supporting evidence of your ties to the US, it doesn't look so good if it is really operating like a foreign company that is merely registered in the US.

Actually, I have two US-based companies.
One runs a couple of websites, did a turnover of a little under $1M since I became LPR. No office, no employees. All of it is on-line. As for customers, I guess around 30,000-40,000 people ordered something from me over the years.
If I tried real hard, I could probably pull up all the addresses and credit card numbers of every single customer whom I charged.

It's definitely not a ghost business or a foreign enterprise.

Another company was set up specifically for the export operations. Haven't sold anything yet. Still working on setting up logistics and dealing with bureaucracy.

There seems to be two distinct questions about the same issue: long absences and proof of ties to the USA.

I guess my first company is for proving that I continuously did business in the US, even while absent.

And the second company (the export) is the reason for absences from the country.

Also for the ties, I can show (almost) weekly ATM withdrawals I made from my US account while being abroad. The same account would show daily deposits from my sales. Would that help? Would that help at least show that I didn't have any other income overseas? If I did, why would I be constantly withdrawing cash via ATM.

 

[Jackolantern]

I don't think they'll care about your ATM withdrawals. They don't look into that level of detail. They'll just want to see that you kept a US bank account while you were gone. It's not that a US bank account directly proves your ties to the US; it's that the lack of a US bank account would strengthen the impression that you broke continuous residence.

But it's not me you have to convince. Apply in 2010 and see what happens.

 

[bcc8234]

I don't think they'll care about your ATM withdrawals. They don't look into that level of detail.

I was thinking about actually bringing my bank statements for those months and showing the transactions.

But it's not me you have to convince.

I know


Do you know if they make a distinction between personal and business bank accounts for this purpose?

I stopped using a personal checking account 5 years ago. Always use one of my business accounts, even for personal stuff. My accountant hates me for it, but it's much more convenient for me.

Does it make sense to open a personal checking just to pay for utilities, etc during the final 9 months I'm in the US until my 5-year mark?

 

[Jackolantern]

I was thinking about actually bringing my bank statements for those months and showing the transactions.

Yes, bring bank statements to the interview, but they're really for showing that you have an account, preferably with a nontrivial amount of money in it, not to look over each transaction.

I stopped using a personal checking account 5 years ago. Always use one of my business accounts, even for personal stuff. My accountant hates me for it, but it's much more convenient for me.

You're going to hate yourself for it if you ever get audited by the IRS or your company is sued. When you commingle business and personal funds, it makes it easier for the IRS to recategorize some of your business expenses as personal (and thus revoke the deductions you took for them), and for creditors or others suing you to get hold of your personal assets (even if you have limited liability or a corporation).

Does it make sense to open a personal checking just to pay for utilities, etc during the final 9 months I'm in the US until my 5-year mark?

Open one right now.

 

[Triple Citizen]

At the end of the day, it all depends on the adjudicator's interpretation of your ties (or lack therof) to the US. Apply and see what happens. Just don't use you business account to pay for the N-400

I was thinking about actually bringing my bank statements for those months and showing the transactions.

 

[bcc8234]

Just don't use you business account to pay for the N-400

I actually thought about that same thing But why not? Why can't they use my company check?

 

[bcc8234]

You're going to hate yourself for it if you ever get audited by the IRS or your company is sued.

Haven't been audited (knock on wood), but been sued twice. It's not as scary as people think.

BTW, do I need to include that on N-400 somewhere? Those were civil suits/torts/etc, not criminal in any way.

I appreciate your comments and I agree with them completely, but let's not turn this into a corporate law advice thread. I would like to deal with one f**kup at a time, please

 

[Jackolantern]

BTW, do I need to include that on N-400 somewhere? Those were civil suits/torts/etc, not criminal in any way.

No, you don't need to mention civil suits.

I appreciate your comments and I agree with them completely, but let's not turn this into a corporate law advice thread. I would like to deal with one f**kup at a time, please

I think you have enough information now to realize that you should just go ahead and apply in 2010 and present your case to the interviewer, not us. If denied you only lose $675 (or maybe a bit more, if they raise the fee next year), and it seems like you can afford it.

 

[bcc8234]

I think you have enough information now to realize that you should just go ahead and apply in 2010 and present your case to the interviewer, not us.

Yep, it looks that way. Again, I appreciate your replies.

If denied you only lose $675 (or maybe a bit more, if they raise the fee next year), and it seems like you can afford it.

Can denial increase the chances of me not being let into the country at POE?
You mentioned before that denial is not likely to also cause me to lose the LPR status, as long as I remain in the US.

But what if I get denied, and then travel outside of the country. Would officers at POE be more likely to scrutinize me at entry?

I'm not talking about frequent, back-to-back trips. No more of those for me.
But about being away maybe 3-4 months in a year.

Would I be able to travel? Or, if denied, should I just sit tight inside the country for the next 4 years?

 

[Jackolantern]

But what if I get denied, and then travel outside of the country. Would officers at POE be more likely to scrutinize me at entry?

If you're given trouble at the POE, the naturalization denial wouldn't have anything to do with it (except of course that if you were approved instead of denied, you'd be a citizen and no longer subject to restrictions on length of travel).

The travel-related harassment you would get (if it happens) would be based on the long trips you took, not the fact that you applied for citizenship and got denied. I don't think they would even know about your naturalization denial at the POE (except maybe if you got sent to secondary inspection and they did some additional queries in the system).